Starnes: Refusing gay wedding customers costs Oregon bakery $135K

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crossnote said:
in your selective picking, you overlooked this example of Fallen's...
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I didn't overlook or selectively pick anything. If you go back and reread my post, I quoted that section and said, "Seems they would, yes." I'll save you some time and repost it, her quote and my response:

Her:
By your logic Agricola a gay baker would be required to bake a cake that a Christian ordered with the text of Lev 20:13 on it. A Muslim baker would be required to bake a cake ordered by a Christian that says Jesus is Lord on it.
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Me:
Seems they would, yes.
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Now, my guess is that there are some judicial rulings that would allow them to do so, but the text of the applicable law seems to deem those decisions as discriminatory.
 
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TecumsehGR said:
I didn't overlook or selectively pick anything. If you go back and reread my post, I quoted that section and said, "Seems they would, yes." I'll save you some time and repost it, her quote and my response:

Her:

Me:

Now, my guess is that there are some judicial rulings that would allow them to do so, but the text of the applicable law seems to deem those decisions as discriminatory.
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ok, so you'd agree that Once Fallen's (male) case would stand on religious grounds, using the muslim example?
 
crossnote said:
ok, so you'd agree that Once Fallen's (male) case would stand on religious grounds, using the muslim example?
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Honestly, I have no idea. I'm not a lawyer. Just by judging on the wording of the statute (found here: ORS 659A.403 - Discrimination in place of public accommodation prohibited - 2013 Oregon Revised Statutes), it would seem those would be cases of discrimination. That said, I suspect there is case law that deals with instances more along those lines that spell out what is and is not allowed.
 
TecumsehGR said:
Honestly, I have no idea. I'm not a lawyer. Just by judging on the wording of the statute (found here: ORS 659A.403 - Discrimination in place of public accommodation prohibited - 2013 Oregon Revised Statutes), it would seem those would be cases of discrimination. That said, I suspect there is case law that deals with instances more along those lines that spell out what is and is not allowed.
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Here is sec#1...1)Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, all persons within the jurisdiction of this state are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction on account of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age if the individual is 18 years of age or older.

So religion is set in with race, color, sex etc., so there should be no difference. It would be an interesting challenge.
 
TecumsehGR said:
As segregationists and anti-miscegenationists use scripture to justify their beliefs, it seems you'd have to allow what I posted above to occur too then to maintain consistency.

As an aside, it seems this bakery was more than willing to do cakes for divorces, babies being born out of wedlock, pagan solstice parties, and cakes related to stem cell cloning. They just appear to draw the line at same sex marriages:

Cake Wars: Asking Shops Who Denied Gays Cakes What Cakes They'll Make
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Well I cant help what others do Im responsible for my own conscience. And when we are told we MUST support divorce or fornication or pagan holidays, as we are told we must support and approve homosexual perversions...Im sure you will see folks resist in the same manner.
 
Agricola said:
I am using the argument of hypocracy and consumer law.

Now, the UK has has equality laws in place a lot longer than the USA. I work in the public sector for a well known bank and fully aware of what the law states regarding this. It seems it is a similar situation in the US, but to play the religion card to discriminate against a person who just wants a cake because thier sin is more offensive, but totally ignore the sin of other people because its less offensive, then sorry that is wrong and hypocritical.

Why is homosexuality considered just as evil as the unforgivable sin, when Jesus does not even mention about homosexuals.
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No one should be forced to support and approve any sin...no one has a special constitutional right to have others approve their ungodly behavior.
 
Oncefallen said:
I can't help but chuckle when I read this thread.....the couple was NOT refused service solely because they were gay. They were refused service because the wanted a cake that would celebrate their homosexuality. I'm quite sure that if the same couple had asked for a birthday cake or a dozen cupcakes they would have been served with a smile.

By your logic Agricola a gay baker would be required to bake a cake that a Christian ordered with the text of Lev 20:13 on it. A Muslim baker would be required to bake a cake ordered by a Christian that says Jesus is Lord on it. A black baker would be required to bake a cake ordered by the local KKK with a burning cross on it. A Jewish baker would be required to bake a cake for the local neo Nazis that say Heil Hitler on it.

In each of these circumstances I say that the baker is justified in refusing service not based on the customer's race, political or religious persuasion, but based on their own personal convictions.
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I see you do not fully understand the implication of the equality and discrimination laws in the UK,

If someone requested a slogan saying, "Jesus is Gay" and the baker found it offensive then they would be in their rights to refuse it. If a someone simply wanted a "support homosexuality" slogan, then there is nothing wrong with this from a legal point and request has to be complied with.
 
Mitspa said:
No one should be forced to support and approve any sin...no one has a special constitutional right to have others approve their ungodly behavior.
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Sorry, but providing a service and complying with customers request is not forcing to support tor approve anything. You can quite easily say "I do not agree with this as I am a Christian, but I do not hate you, so I will provide you with the best cake I can make", that is more of an impact and Christ like than "Depart from my shop henceforth you queers you are going to hell for your evil sodomy

In my job, if someone calls me to make a payment for an escort service or legal porn site, then I have to make it, even if I know that payment is to pay for sex, it doesn't bother me and I have no problem with what people who have rejected God get up to.
 
Agricola said:
Sorry, but providing a service and complying with customers request is not forcing to support tor approve anything. You can quite easily say "I do not agree with this as I am a Christian, but I do not hate you, so I will provide you with the best cake I can make", that is more of an impact and Christ like than "Depart from my shop henceforth you queers you are going to hell for your evil sodomy

In my job, if someone calls me to make a payment for an escort service or legal porn site, then I have to make it, even if I know that payment is to pay for sex, it doesn't bother me and I have no problem with what people who have rejected God get up to.
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Sure it is! You just don't understand what freedom really is because you have been made to believe a lie. According to our laws (until recently) we have every right to refuse to approve immoral behavior and to act according to our own conscience. Because you guys have given up that right, don't mean we have to...and further more as a believer I would not take a job that I could not work in good conscience and God blesses those who keep His Ways.
 
Agricola said:
I see you do not fully understand the implication of the equality and discrimination laws in the UK,

If someone requested a slogan saying, "Jesus is Gay" and the baker found it offensive then they would be in their rights to refuse it. If a someone simply wanted a "support homosexuality" slogan, then there is nothing wrong with this from a legal point and request has to be complied with.
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This is not the UK...and we still have a constitution and hopefully the people will turn against this sort of nonsense? We will see?
 
Agricola said:
BUt as I see it, you have already passed laws in line with ours.
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No the supreme court made a ruling that is clearly against the constitution ...the fight has just started :)

As far as laws in the states...that's a different issue because they have to agree with the constitution and this is just a recent decision but the fight has just started and folks are not going to yield to this nonsense...Some of the states have already refused to accept this ruling as constitutional.
 
The republicans just had a sweeping victory based on conservative ideas...If conservatives have another good election cycle and real conservatives are elected...much of this nonsense can be turned back through the congress and whitehouse....This is our hope :)
 
Mitspa said:
The republicans just had a sweeping victory based on conservative ideas...If conservatives have another good election cycle and real conservatives are elected...much of this nonsense can be turned back through the congress and whitehouse....This is our hope :)
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The Republicans are waterboys, it will take some strong core conservatives.
 
crossnote said:
Here is sec#1...1)Except as provided in subsection (2) of this section, all persons within the jurisdiction of this state are entitled to the full and equal accommodations, advantages, facilities and privileges of any place of public accommodation, without any distinction, discrimination or restriction on account of race, color, religion, sex, sexual orientation, national origin, marital status or age if the individual is 18 years of age or older.

So religion is set in with race, color, sex etc., so there should be no difference. It would be an interesting challenge.
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I'd assume the general rule is something akin to this: If you provide scripture on baked goods for Muslims, then you must provide scripture on baked goods for Christians. If you provide customized cakes for heterosexual weddings, then you must provide customized cakes for homosexual weddings.

Likewise, if you're a Muslim baker that doesn't provide any scripture of any sort on baked goods, then you don't provide scripture on any sort of baked goods, regardless if it's Christian or Muslim. The same would apply for customized cakes for weddings. If you don't do them for either heterosexual or homosexual weddings, then there should be no problems.
 
TecumsehGR said:
I'd assume the general rule is something akin to this: If you provide scripture on baked goods for Muslims, then you must provide scripture on baked goods for Christians. If you provide customized cakes for heterosexual weddings, then you must provide customized cakes for homosexual weddings.

Likewise, if you're a Muslim baker that doesn't provide any scripture of any sort on baked goods, then you don't provide scripture on any sort of baked goods, regardless if it's Christian or Muslim. The same would apply for customized cakes for weddings. If you don't do them for either heterosexual or homosexual weddings, then there should be no problems.
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Somebody told you that was freedom? No that's insanity! And sexual perversion is not the same as race or religion...its a sexual perversion and it does not deserve to be honored or approved by society.
 
Mitspa said:
Somebody told you that was freedom? No that's insanity! And sexual perversion is not the same as race or religion...its a sexual perversion and it does not deserve to be honored or approved by society.
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Too bad, it is. Sexual orientation is a protected class in Oregon, the same as race, religion, sex, and age, and this business clearly discriminated against this couple due to their sexual orientation. Don't like it, then change the law. The business owners implied time and time again through both traditional and social media that they were going to continue breaking the law by discriminating based upon sexual orientation, and that's part of the reason they're having to cough up so much money.
 
TecumsehGR said:
Too bad, it is. Sexual orientation is a protected class in Oregon, the same as race, religion, sex, and age, and this business clearly discriminated against this couple due to their sexual orientation. Don't like it, then change the law. The business owners implied time and time again through both traditional and social media that they were going to continue breaking the law by discriminating based upon sexual orientation, and that's part of the reason they're having to cough up so much money.
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If that's the case, it's too bad they didn't argue it on grounds of a religious conscience instead of sexual orientation.
 
Just last week, Walmart refused to make a cake with the confederate flag on it and then turned around and made a cake for the same customer with the ISIS flag on it:

Walmart sorry for making ISIS cake

Walmart is now apologizing for the ISIS flag cake, but why aren't they being sued for discrimination?
 
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