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B
Oh, I have been 'Bishop"ed, lol. Old tactic, doesn't work. I suppose that you actually know all those names on my list? If you do than you know that the majority are not seminary grads. Even those that are I list because they love the Lord and not because they espouse denominational rhetoric taught by some school. Indeed only about 40% are seminary trained They rest are not. They are heroes of the faith not because of there place of training but because ther teach and preach the Word of God without reservation or dupicity. It might interest you that the founder of you particular denomination is not seminary trained either as seminary was establish Because of the Reformation and not before it.
Of course you knew that right? Right?
In Christ,
Bishop SEH
Of course you knew that right? Right?
In Christ,
Bishop SEH
yes i know all the names.
Tim LaHaye?
okay.
so much for your no 'isms' and forget traditional theology.
anyways, not much interested in your disdain for seminaries.
only you know the reasons why
Home Page - Concordia Theological Seminary < click
bye now.
Tim LaHaye?
okay.
so much for your no 'isms' and forget traditional theology.
anyways, not much interested in your disdain for seminaries.
only you know the reasons why
Home Page - Concordia Theological Seminary < click
bye now.
the subject between us at the start of this little discussion was the Church.
if you don't really agree the Lord planned a CHURCH, and is pleased to have us join together as a body, just say so.
He said the Church is the pillar and ground of truth.
about Him and the Cross.
i believe Him. i am pleased to join myself to others of like-mind in the body.
rituals or works? oh purleeze.
is that what you deconstruct the Church down to?
then we wonder why threads like this are around:
Re: State Of The (American) Church
if you don't really agree the Lord planned a CHURCH, and is pleased to have us join together as a body, just say so.
He said the Church is the pillar and ground of truth.
about Him and the Cross.
i believe Him. i am pleased to join myself to others of like-mind in the body.
rituals or works? oh purleeze.
is that what you deconstruct the Church down to?
then we wonder why threads like this are around:
Re: State Of The (American) Church
B
yes i know all the names.
Tim LaHaye?
okay.
so much for your no 'isms' and forget traditional theology.
anyways, not much interested in your disdain for seminaries.
only you know the reasons why
Home Page - Concordia Theological Seminary < click
bye now.
Tim LaHaye?
okay.
so much for your no 'isms' and forget traditional theology.
anyways, not much interested in your disdain for seminaries.
only you know the reasons why
Home Page - Concordia Theological Seminary < click
bye now.
but with her own hands the foolish one tears hers down.
In Christ,
Bishop SEH
P
Hey Bishop,
I really appreciate your response. Thank you for commenting and sharing your perspective. Feel free to ignore some of the more ignorant responses in this thread. Your elucidation on the history of the training was quite interesting.
Zone, there's a million threads on this forum. Can you stop littering this one with your ignorance? Whatever terrible point you had was made. Thanks.
I really appreciate your response. Thank you for commenting and sharing your perspective. Feel free to ignore some of the more ignorant responses in this thread. Your elucidation on the history of the training was quite interesting.
Zone, there's a million threads on this forum. Can you stop littering this one with your ignorance? Whatever terrible point you had was made. Thanks.
Last edited:
A
personally i don't have a problem with seminaries. If possible I believe all young men should attend a three years of intense Bible study in a remote isolated area with the distraction of the world.
Saul did after meeting Jesus on the road. He spent three years in a community of believers learning sound doctrine, praying and being guided by God. In the purest sense that is what seminary should be. an opportunity for a believer to dedicate their lives for a few years to study of the Bible, doctrines, etc in the native language it was written with a group of people with the same goal.
yes most seminaries have a slant but that doesn't mean people are brainwashed into believing everything they are taught. it is evident by some of the cults that spring up that not everyone comes out of seminary believing the exact same things.
However one still trusts GOD to guide His people and show them the error of their ways even in the mist of this corrupt world.
it is not the church that is corrupt but the world as a whole.
When I think of God's church I see an eternal church that spans all time, from Able, to John the Baptist to people in the present time speaking God's word in love as oracles of God. Proclaiming to the people His Gospel of repentance and forgiveness and grace. Walking with His Holy Spirit as guide. learning to live as One people, One body, many members, One Head who is Christ Jesus.
you can't lump all the churches in America under one umbrella. it is unfair and oversteps the authority God gives His children.
He tells us to look at the world and love as He loved.
He tells us to see beyond the flesh, see beyond the present and spiritually discern how God is working in the people around us.
He shows us how to love others as He has loved us.
The world sees the corruption, and the despair and the hatred that poisons others.
God shows His children the redeeming blood that washes clean sinners and hearts made soft, humble and contrite. He shows a people made Holy walking in His ways, loving others, caring, compassionate, patient, kind, gentle, loyal, and possessing self control. A people who tame their tongues and speak blessings not curses. A people whose words breathe life into those who hear and not despair and darkness. A people who give hope because they in their hearts know the hope that lies in the promises of God.
I don't know my place in this world, but I pray God will help me every step to be who He wants me to be and do that task HE wants me to do and not what my pride or my selfishness motivates me to do.
so when you talk about the state of American churches, I remember the answer a pastor gave me when I asked him once:
why are you worried about them? I am more concerned with the state of YOUR heart and your understanding of scripture.
it took me a while but I truly came to understand these scriptures:
[h=3]Matthew 7:3-5[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
Saul did after meeting Jesus on the road. He spent three years in a community of believers learning sound doctrine, praying and being guided by God. In the purest sense that is what seminary should be. an opportunity for a believer to dedicate their lives for a few years to study of the Bible, doctrines, etc in the native language it was written with a group of people with the same goal.
yes most seminaries have a slant but that doesn't mean people are brainwashed into believing everything they are taught. it is evident by some of the cults that spring up that not everyone comes out of seminary believing the exact same things.
However one still trusts GOD to guide His people and show them the error of their ways even in the mist of this corrupt world.
it is not the church that is corrupt but the world as a whole.
When I think of God's church I see an eternal church that spans all time, from Able, to John the Baptist to people in the present time speaking God's word in love as oracles of God. Proclaiming to the people His Gospel of repentance and forgiveness and grace. Walking with His Holy Spirit as guide. learning to live as One people, One body, many members, One Head who is Christ Jesus.
you can't lump all the churches in America under one umbrella. it is unfair and oversteps the authority God gives His children.
He tells us to look at the world and love as He loved.
He tells us to see beyond the flesh, see beyond the present and spiritually discern how God is working in the people around us.
He shows us how to love others as He has loved us.
The world sees the corruption, and the despair and the hatred that poisons others.
God shows His children the redeeming blood that washes clean sinners and hearts made soft, humble and contrite. He shows a people made Holy walking in His ways, loving others, caring, compassionate, patient, kind, gentle, loyal, and possessing self control. A people who tame their tongues and speak blessings not curses. A people whose words breathe life into those who hear and not despair and darkness. A people who give hope because they in their hearts know the hope that lies in the promises of God.
I don't know my place in this world, but I pray God will help me every step to be who He wants me to be and do that task HE wants me to do and not what my pride or my selfishness motivates me to do.
so when you talk about the state of American churches, I remember the answer a pastor gave me when I asked him once:
why are you worried about them? I am more concerned with the state of YOUR heart and your understanding of scripture.
it took me a while but I truly came to understand these scriptures:
[h=3]Matthew 7:3-5[/h]New King James Version (NKJV)
[SUP]3 [/SUP]And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? [SUP]4 [/SUP]Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? [SUP]5 [/SUP]Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye.
B
Ariel, you are correct that Paul did indeed spent a fair amount of time surrounded by believers. The instruction they provided him was practical and hands on with seminaries generally speaking do not offer. Again, I must apparently say, seminaries are not evil in and if themselves. They instruct in theory not in practicality. If you look at the burn out stats for Pastors you will see that seminary just does not prepare new clergy for the reality is life long service vocationally. A perfect example is Moses. He too faces burn out dealing with all the Israel brought him on a daily bases. It took some clear and sound advice from and observer (his father-in-law) to point out that he was carrying too heavy a load and that he need not carry it alone.
The system of instruction the Lord used allowed the first generation of clergy, the apostles, to slowly get used to what they would have to face without being overwhelmed. They were also tied intimately to a network of other clergy for support, the rest of the apostles. Seminary does not do this either.
I know it sounds like I am really down on seminaries so lets look at some of the positives they offer. First they are in a fairly protected environment. While attending school the world has limited access to them allowing them, as they will, to focus on their instruction.
Second they have access to a large storehouse of current and historical information. While the average person has access to much the same the retrieval systems at seminary are a lot more user friendly.
Third, ideally they have access to some of the best theological thinkers of our day. Not just their professors but many visiting clergy.
These are just a few of the positives of seminary training. But, it is imperative that we look at the whole picture and not through the lens of a narrow mind. If all of us are honest, we expect all clergy to be seminary trained today. If, you take the time to study though, you will find that seminary requirements for service gained momentum in this country near the beginning of the fall into moral decline. Suddenly, only those with the financial resources and time to devote to 6 or more years of university training were becoming clergy.
If you look at the make up of clergy just prior to that time you will find that about 45-47% of practicing clergy were biblically trained and not seminary trained. That is they learned the craft at the feet of an active and practicing Pastor. They did intense and personal bible study without the aid of so much as a study guide let alone a syllabus. Sadly, most of that generation of Pastors had either retired or have gone home to the Lord.
Many have heard of Dr. James Dobson. Did you know that his father was a biblically trained minister? His father never darkening the doorstep of a seminary nor polished a seat in the halls of academia with his behind. He learned classically and preached fervently yet eloquently and to this day his memory is still cherished by the members of his congregation. Cherished for his love, his teaching and his unswerving loyalty to God and His Word.
Personally, I train young men to be the next generation of clergy. I, and others within the Church seek out those that have been called while they are still in high school. Every year we have, all over the world, (where safe to do so) a kind of fair in which we call those that have been called. With the permission of their parents, they sign on to be apprentices. We combine classical hands on biblical training with a four year college education paid for by the church. Each semester they take 2 courses and during the summer a full class load. By the time they complete their apprenticeship they also have a 4 year degree. If they decide to continue on to the masters level (which is seminary) that's their choice and their burden as well. Otherwise, if they feel ready they are sent to a congregation in need and go through the ordination process when they arrive, if accepted.
For those that do not know a four year degree in divinity qualifies you to be a Youth Pastor in almost any church in the US and abroad. In developing nations it is often enough to be the senior or only Pastor.
In Christ,
Bishop SEH
The system of instruction the Lord used allowed the first generation of clergy, the apostles, to slowly get used to what they would have to face without being overwhelmed. They were also tied intimately to a network of other clergy for support, the rest of the apostles. Seminary does not do this either.
I know it sounds like I am really down on seminaries so lets look at some of the positives they offer. First they are in a fairly protected environment. While attending school the world has limited access to them allowing them, as they will, to focus on their instruction.
Second they have access to a large storehouse of current and historical information. While the average person has access to much the same the retrieval systems at seminary are a lot more user friendly.
Third, ideally they have access to some of the best theological thinkers of our day. Not just their professors but many visiting clergy.
These are just a few of the positives of seminary training. But, it is imperative that we look at the whole picture and not through the lens of a narrow mind. If all of us are honest, we expect all clergy to be seminary trained today. If, you take the time to study though, you will find that seminary requirements for service gained momentum in this country near the beginning of the fall into moral decline. Suddenly, only those with the financial resources and time to devote to 6 or more years of university training were becoming clergy.
If you look at the make up of clergy just prior to that time you will find that about 45-47% of practicing clergy were biblically trained and not seminary trained. That is they learned the craft at the feet of an active and practicing Pastor. They did intense and personal bible study without the aid of so much as a study guide let alone a syllabus. Sadly, most of that generation of Pastors had either retired or have gone home to the Lord.
Many have heard of Dr. James Dobson. Did you know that his father was a biblically trained minister? His father never darkening the doorstep of a seminary nor polished a seat in the halls of academia with his behind. He learned classically and preached fervently yet eloquently and to this day his memory is still cherished by the members of his congregation. Cherished for his love, his teaching and his unswerving loyalty to God and His Word.
Personally, I train young men to be the next generation of clergy. I, and others within the Church seek out those that have been called while they are still in high school. Every year we have, all over the world, (where safe to do so) a kind of fair in which we call those that have been called. With the permission of their parents, they sign on to be apprentices. We combine classical hands on biblical training with a four year college education paid for by the church. Each semester they take 2 courses and during the summer a full class load. By the time they complete their apprenticeship they also have a 4 year degree. If they decide to continue on to the masters level (which is seminary) that's their choice and their burden as well. Otherwise, if they feel ready they are sent to a congregation in need and go through the ordination process when they arrive, if accepted.
For those that do not know a four year degree in divinity qualifies you to be a Youth Pastor in almost any church in the US and abroad. In developing nations it is often enough to be the senior or only Pastor.
In Christ,
Bishop SEH
N
People only know what they are taught , pastors alike. Giving a message is one thing , however being taught how to appy it in you life is another. Scripture is about change, a way of life , which goes against the grain of the world. Many are fearful of change, but that is exactly what Jesus is all about. Many people are on the fence with one foot in the world and the other in the Lord. Many are carnal Christians. It is sad but true. I have not been to church on a regular basis for the reasons you expressed. I came from a wonderful church in NJ. that I was a member for 15 yrs. , but moved out of state and thought I found a home church here, but realized there are too many cliques that don't have time to welcome anyone new into it. So now I am on this site to chat about the Lord and be a blessing to whoever He puts here. We Americans are blessed with so much and cursed with so much. And look at the lottery, why in the world do people need to bet the Lords money to win millions of dollars. That is what America stands for , money, beauty and sex. Very sad indeed. The enemy is out there to destroy , so be aware church and pray , pray, pray.
I like that someone pointed out that there has always been a problem with the earthly church. In the days of the puritans, they found witches and murdered them, in todays church you can't spot an aetheist from a Christian by their acts. Each of us has a different remedy.
Some posters that I think come closest to what I think would remedy the church say it is a return to the cross. I think the cross is everything these people say, everything. It is just that I think it is missing God the Father. Christ said He and the Father were one, when we don't read of the Father, say that much of who the Father is and what the Father says is only for the Hebrews, we miss a part of Christ. We make Christ into something that is so incomplete that the Christ we tell of is false.
When we understand the whole of God we don't rely on works only, on faith only, on grace only, even on what is the heart of God--on forgiveness only. They work together in absolute harmony.
Some posters that I think come closest to what I think would remedy the church say it is a return to the cross. I think the cross is everything these people say, everything. It is just that I think it is missing God the Father. Christ said He and the Father were one, when we don't read of the Father, say that much of who the Father is and what the Father says is only for the Hebrews, we miss a part of Christ. We make Christ into something that is so incomplete that the Christ we tell of is false.
When we understand the whole of God we don't rely on works only, on faith only, on grace only, even on what is the heart of God--on forgiveness only. They work together in absolute harmony.
S
There are many denominations some which are comfortable in their methods and feel they are ordained of God which someone else perceives as dead and ceremony without understanding. Just rote if you will. Each group or denomination seems to be on a separate journey and measures their vitality according to those doctrinal issues important to them. There are holy saints meeting all over the world who are preaching the whole counsel of God and where a large percentage of the congregation lives out a holy a godly life before all. Then you have all the dribble that is protected on christian TV and this ranges from humble evangelists preaching the Gospel to pipe smoking pastors spending 20 hours a seminar teaching doctrine you have never heard before. So TV shows cannot give you a good picture of the church in America. When it comes down to it we as individuals must walk in non compromising holiness and leave the state of the church in America to the one who really knows. I am responsible for me. There are many churches caught up in emotional services as if afraid people will get bored if they are not entertained. Men called of God to pastor should take Jesus words to peter as a message to all pastors who are called to Feed His Sheep. We already know that we grow by ingesting the word of God therefore pastors must dedicate themselves to preaching the word and not showmanship, sweet stories, or sensational props which does not illuminate the spirit of man in the same way Holy Spirit illuminates through the supernatural wording of the Word. One repentant faith filled servant of God can have an eternal effect on other churches by example. There is no new TV program, or concert, or satellite, or megabuilding that can replace being lead by the holy spirit. Some pastors will get this and many will keep up with their building and entertaining and never get it.