State of the Dead. what happens when you die. ???

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TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
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State of the Dead.
There are 3 main views
The dead have no hope and die for ever. (Atheist).
The dead\living are immortal and just change where they are living for eternity. (heaven, Hell, reincarnation, etc).
The dead are in an unconscious sleep, waiting to be raised. (1st or 2nd resurrection).

I'll state more latter, but to start with i want to show how Luke 16 is not a way to prove that we go to heaven or hell when we die.
When Jesus used a parable does that mean it is literal? Think of the Ten virgins, is that symbolic or literal? Think of the seed sower is that symbolic or literal, It is ovious that Jesus used things that were not literal to show priciples and truths that the people needed to understand.
In Luke 16:19-31, Jesus tells a parable that has led to a lot of controversy. Some people believe that the teaching (a story about a rich man and a beggar who die and go to hell and heaven) is to be taken literally, and gives proof that God’s people go to heaven immediately after they die.
However, others show us that the language and setting of the story are figurative. Most scenes in the parable contradict the teachings of Scriptures, indicating that Jesus was telling the story to convey a larger truth.

The Context
Throughout history, God had named the Israelite people His own. The nation had been highly favored by God as His children, and as the recipients of His truth.
The Jews were called to use the truth God gave them to lead other nations to God. For this reason, God placed them at the crossroads between the great nations and trade routes of that time.
However, instead of fulfilling their mission, the Jews had become self-centered, claiming salvation only for themselves. While priding themselves in their exclusivity, they had nevertheless embraced heathen teachings, including lies regarding the afterlife, but always with the provision that their heritage would get them into heaven.
In His story about Lazarus the beggar, Jesus speaks against the hypocrisy of these views.

The Plot
The story begins with a wounded beggar named Lazarus. He lay everyday at the gate of a rich man, who was too busy dressing himself in purple robes and white linen to show Lazarus any pity.
One day, both men died. Lazarus was taken to heaven where he sat next to Abraham. The rich man, however, was sent to hell where he remained in torment.
Seeing Lazarus in heaven, and still believing himself to be better than the beggar, the rich man concocted a plan. He told Abraham to send Lazarus down to give him a drink.
When Abraham said no, the rich man begged him to at least send Lazarus to warn his family about the torments of hell. But Abraham simply said, “You’ve had the prophets to warn you. Why would your family listen to Lazarus when they ignored the messengers God already sent?”

The Lessons
Jesus told this story as a sharp rebuke to the Jewish religious leaders. In the parable, the rich man represents the Jewish nation, and the poor man represents the Gentiles.
The rich man had the knowledge of the King of kings (purple is the colour of royalty), and the means to attaining righteousness (white linen). But as the parable unfolds, Jesus turns the viewpoint of the Jewish leaders on its head by placing the rich man in "hell" and the poor man in "Abraham's bosom."
Jesus was saying that personal status does not guarantee salvation. He was telling the Jews that they could only find salvation in God’s grace, not their own works or lineage. The Jews claimed Abraham as their father (John 8:39), but in the parable "Father Abraham" was unable to help the rich man.
The New Testament states that those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29), and that Christ came to restore the wounded and brokenhearted. Only those who realize their own spiritual poverty and need for Christ can attain His blessings.
Through this story, Jesus was also revealing to the disciples their new task: to break tradition and preach the Gospel with power to the Jews and the Gentiles alike.
As each scene unfolds in the parable, it conveys a spiritual truth contrary to the mindset of the Jewish leaders. The modern trend of taking this parable literally in order to support the doctrine of hell does great injustice to the intent of the story, and causes us to miss the deeper message it holds.

Conclusion
According to the Bible, death is a state of unconscious sleep. This does not mean that there is no record in heaven of the sleeping saints. God knows our being, our very nature, and when He calls forth the sleeping saints, they rise with imperishable bodies and the characters that they have formed under His guidance.
The Biblical record of death, far from being disturbing, is comforting. Our ancestors are not watching our every mistake and feeling the pain of our wrong choices. They are blissfully unaware of unfolding events as they sleep until the day of the resurrection. If we are strengthened by these Biblical truths, the deceptive power of false teachings and miracles can have no hold over us. We will be better prepared to stand in the last days.

 
Phillipians 1:21-24
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Soul sleep is not biblical.
The above is :)
 
For the believer to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

For the cause of Christ
Roger
 
According to the Bible, death is a state of unconscious sleep. 

That's the impression we get by focusing entirely on the Old Testament. But we find that in the New Testament the deseased saints are very much alive in Heaven. So Soul Sleep is false doctrine and you should give it up.
 
When Jesus used a parable does that mean it is literal?

The Plot
The story begins with a wounded beggar named Lazarus. He lay everyday at the gate of a rich man, who was too busy dressing himself in purple robes and white linen to show Lazarus any pity.
One day, both men died. Lazarus was taken to heaven where he sat next to Abraham. The rich man, however, was sent to hell where he remained in torment.

Seeing Lazarus in heaven, and still believing himself to be better than the beggar, the rich man concocted a plan. He told Abraham to send Lazarus down to give him a drink.

When Abraham said no, the rich man begged him to at least send Lazarus to warn his family about the torments of hell. But Abraham simply said, “You’ve had the prophets to warn you. Why would your family listen to Lazarus when they ignored the messengers God already sent?”

The Lessons
Jesus told this story as a sharp rebuke to the Jewish religious leaders. In the parable, the rich man represents the Jewish nation, and the poor man represents the Gentiles.

The rich man had the knowledge of the King of kings (purple is the colour of royalty), and the means to attaining righteousness (white linen). But as the parable unfolds, Jesus turns the viewpoint of the Jewish leaders on its head by placing the rich man in "hell" and the poor man in "Abraham's bosom."

Jesus was saying that personal status does not guarantee salvation. He was telling the Jews that they could only find salvation in God’s grace, not their own works or lineage. The Jews claimed Abraham as their father (John 8:39), but in the parable "Father Abraham" was unable to help the rich man.

The New Testament states that those who are in Christ are Abraham's seed (Galatians 3:29), and that Christ came to restore the wounded and brokenhearted. Only those who realize their own spiritual poverty and need for Christ can attain His blessings.

Through this story, Jesus was also revealing to the disciples their new task: to break tradition and preach the Gospel with power to the Jews and the Gentiles alike.

As each scene unfolds in the parable, it conveys a spiritual truth contrary to the mindset of the Jewish leaders. The modern trend of taking this parable literally in order to support the doctrine of hell does great injustice to the intent of the story, and causes us to miss the deeper message it holds.

Conclusion
According to the Bible, death is a state of unconscious sleep. This does not mean that there is no record in heaven of the sleeping saints. God knows our being, our very nature, and when He calls forth the sleeping saints, they rise with imperishable bodies and the characters that they have formed under His guidance.

The Biblical record of death, far from being disturbing, is comforting. Our ancestors are not watching our every mistake and feeling the pain of our wrong choices. They are blissfully unaware of unfolding events as they sleep until the day of the resurrection. If we are strengthened by these Biblical truths, the deceptive power of false teachings and miracles can have no hold over us. We will be better prepared to stand in the last days.

Many deny that Luke's 16:19–31 is a parable, even though there are many chapters full of parables leading up to those verses.
 
When a Christian dies their soul sleeps in a place referred to as Hades (Greek) or Sheol (Hebrew).
Hell is the grave where our bodies do their thing in the ground.
Confusion arises because of the inconsistencies in Bible translations, such as the KJV.
Also Hades and Hell are not of eternal condemnation and the fire that is never quenched
(Isaiah 66:24)

The scriptures that refer to death describe death as a "sleep" wherein there is no consciousness, no praise and no remembrance. The dead simply sleep awaiting resurrection to judgment.

5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
Psalm 88: is representative of many scriptures referring to death and the grave as the land of darkness for everybody.

The dead do not worry, not are they subject to tribulation or temptation any more - they are at rest; hence the euphemism to sleep.

It is not physical death that one should fear - for all die - but rather spiritual death and not entering the eternities with God.
 
Phillipians 1:21-24
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you.

Soul sleep is not biblical.

The above is :)

"having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better:" Is it instantly with Jesus? To go to sleep and be unconscious weather it is 1 hour or 1000 years would be the same for Paul. The next thing he would know after death would be Jesus when he is risen.

so please prove this means that Paul instantly goes to heaven.
 
That's the impression we get by focusing entirely on the Old Testament. But we find that in the New Testament the deseased saints are very much alive in Heaven. So Soul Sleep is false doctrine and you should give it up.
I'll give it up if you can give me a consistent view from scripture.
There were some that rose at the resurrection of Jesus and other than Moses (an exception like Elijah) i would like you to show me who was in heaven?
"the deseased saints are very much alive in Heaven" Please show me the scriptures.
 
Paul told the Thessalonians that Christ would bring with him those who had fallen asleep. So as he is in Heaven it follows that they must be there as well.
 
Yes Jesus will return with the Saints when He returns... But that does not mean that the Saints are all in heaven at the current time... When Jesus returns that will be the day of the rapture and we shall be raised up to meet Him in the Sky. Then we shall be coming right back down to earth to rule it 1000 Years with our LORD Jesus Christ..
 
When a Christian dies their soul sleeps in a place referred to as Hades (Greek) or Sheol (Hebrew).
Hell is the grave where our bodies do their thing in the ground.
Confusion arises because of the inconsistencies in Bible translations, such as the KJV.
Also Hades and Hell are not of eternal condemnation and the fire that is never quenched
(Isaiah 66:24)

The scriptures that refer to death describe death as a "sleep" wherein there is no consciousness, no praise and no remembrance. The dead simply sleep awaiting resurrection to judgment.

5 Free among the dead, like the slain that lie in the grave, whom thou rememberest no more: and they are cut off from thy hand.
12 Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?
Psalm 88: is representative of many scriptures referring to death and the grave as the land of darkness for everybody.

The dead do not worry, not are they subject to tribulation or temptation any more - they are at rest; hence the euphemism to sleep.

It is not physical death that one should fear - for all die - but rather spiritual death and not entering the eternities with God.

Hi waggles,

Do you mind if I ask where you attend church down under. You and I seem to have much in common with our beliefs. I would like to have a private chat with you. I am kind of new here and I am not sure how to do that.

Yours,

Deade


 
For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.
Philippians 1:21
I do not interpret this and the following verses to mean that Paul is transported up up and away to Heaven immediately to be with Christ.
That is very Roman Catholic rather than scriptural.
It also contradicts the many scriptures that refer to the dead as sleeping in forgetfulness.

Both the OT and the NT clearly describe an awakening from "the grave" so to speak and a person then seeing God - an example that readily comes to mind is
Psalm 17:15
As for me, I will behold thy face in righteousness: I shall be satisfied, when I awake, with thy likeness.

confirmed throughout the NT with scriptures such as -
1Corinthians 15:
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,
52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1Thessalonians 4:16

 
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"the deseased saints are very much alive in Heaven" Please show me the scriptures.
Mark 12:26,27
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

At the time that God spoke to Moses, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were long gone. At the time that Christ spoke to the Sadducees, it was another 1500 years later. Yet as far as He and God were concerned, those three patriarchs were very much alive. And that was the lesson needed by the Sadducees.

Hebrews 13:22-24
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Is it even remotely possible that in the city of the living God, where God and Christ are very much alive with the holy angels, there are dead men sleeping?

There are two groups of saints mentioned.The NT saints are called the general assembly and church of the firstborn, and the OT saints are called
the spirits of just men made perfect.

So ever since the resurrection of Christ, every saint goes directly to Heaven, and is very much alive over there.
 
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Read and study Acts 7 & 8 and discover this for yourself. Then BELIEVE IT!
Instantly ???
Act 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit. (spirit = breath or breath of life).
Act 7:60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.
This does not prove that Stephen instantly went to heaven.

Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
This is about Jesus, and Jesus didn't go to Heaven until after He was risen from the dead.
These verses do not prove that you go straight to Heaven when you die.
 
Mark 12:26,27
And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

At the time that God spoke to Moses, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were long gone. At the time that Christ spoke to the Sadducees, it was another 1500 years later. Yet as far as He and God were concerned, those three patriarchs were very much alive. And that was the lesson needed by the Sadducees.

.
Let me start with Matt
Mar 12:18 Then come unto him the Sadducees, which say there is no resurrection; and they asked him, saying,
Mar 12:19 Master, Moses wrote unto us, If a man's brother die, and leave his wife behind him, and leave no children, that his brother should take his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
Mar 12:20 Now there were seven brethren: and the first took a wife, and dying left no seed.
Mar 12:21 And the second took her, and died, neither left he any seed: and the third likewise.
Mar 12:22 And the seven had her, and left no seed: last of all the woman died also.
Mar 12:23 In the resurrection therefore, when they shall rise, whose wife shall she be of them? for the seven had her to wife.
Mar 12:24 And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?
Mar 12:25 For when they shall rise from the dead, they neither marry, nor are given in marriage; but are as the angels which are in heaven.
Mar 12:26 And as touching the dead, that they rise: have ye not read in the book of Moses, how in the bush God spake unto him, saying, I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob?
Mar 12:27 He is not the God of the dead, but the God of the living: ye therefore do greatly err.

They greatly err in their belief that there is no resurrection.
God shall raise them from death, He has conquered death and is therefore the God of the living. God has life ready to give them at the Resurrection.

[FONT=&quot]However it is clear from the above passages that the issue in question is God's power to raise the dead from the grave in a resurrection, something the Sadducees clearly rejected. The question posed does not address who's wife the woman would be after she is dead, while still in the grave, but rather after her resurrection, because the Sadducees assumed death to be final and irreversible. Catholics who cite these passages to support Catholic teaching on the state of the dead (purgatory etc.) are doing so out of context, and this is apparent to most any reader who will merely take the time to study the matter.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]1 Cor 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
1 Cor 15:53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
1 Cor 15:54 So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
1 Cor 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?
1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.
1 Cor 15:57 But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.[/FONT]

[FONT=&quot]The dead are in the grave, corrupt, decayed, dust, awaiting their resurrection at the last trumpet. At their resurrection they will put on incorruption, immortality, but until then they rest in the grave.[/FONT]
 
The dead are in the grave, corrupt, decayed, dust, awaiting their resurrection at the last trumpet. At their resurrection they will put on incorruption, immortality, but until then they rest in the grave.
First you ask for Scriptures and then IGNORE those Scriptures to continue promoting your false beliefs. The two passages I gave you thoroughly refute what you have just said. So you have decided to believe whatever you will believe. Goodbye.
 

Hebrews 13:22-24
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.

Is it even remotely possible that in the city of the living God, where God and Christ are very much alive with the holy angels, there are dead men sleeping?

There are two groups of saints mentioned.The NT saints are called the general assembly and church of the firstborn, and the OT saints are called
the spirits of just men made perfect.

So ever since the resurrection of Christ, every saint goes directly to Heaven, and is very much alive over there.

Heb 12

  1. The same writer to the Hebrews expressly states that the great cloud of witnesses catalogued in the 11th chapter, "having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect." (Heb. 11:39, 40). In chapter 12 the writer uses the perfect tense to describe an event yet future, but assured - "the Spirits of just men made perfect". This mode of expression is a common feature of Scripture and is clearly stated in Rom. 4:16,17. (See also Rev. 13:8 - Christ was not literally slain from "the foundation of the world"; Matt. 25:34 - the kingdom is not yet established.)
  2. When will the spirits of "just men" be made "perfect"? Not until after resurrection and judgment when immortality is granted. (2 Cor. 5:10 cf. Phil. 3:9-12 - "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect"). A person is justified (made righteous) by appropriating the great salvation of the gospel at his baptism. (Rom. 6:3,4 cf. vs. 17,18; 4:24). The law of Moses could not make the offerer of sacrifices perfect (Heb. 10:1), but Christ "by one offering. . . hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified." (Heb. 10:14). The spirit or life of the believer is not made perfect until he has endured unto the end, overcoming the world (Matt. 24:13; Rev. 2:26,27), but God can speak of believers coming unto the spirits of "just men made perfect" since known to Him are all His works from the "beginning of the world." (Acts 15:18). In actuality the spirits will not be made perfect until the granting of immortality of the Lord's return.
  3. It is difficult to define precisely the meaning of "spirits" in this passage. "Lives" seems to be a fair approximation. In Heb. 12:9 the writer states: "Shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits and live?" This verse appears to allude to Num. 16:22; 27:16. The intent of these references being that God is the giver of life, and therefore must be respected when he chastens or punishes. But the life of a person is manifested in the kind of life lived. (i.e., the character of the person), hence "spirits made perfect", refers to the lives of persons made perfect.
 
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30
For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Matthew 22:

34 And Jesus answering said unto them, The children of this world marry, and are given in marriage:
35 But they which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world,
and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage:
36 Neither can they die any more:
for they are equal unto the angels;
and are the children of God, being the children of the resurrection.
Luke 20:

12
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered
up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man
according to their works.
Revelation 20:
Hell > G86 ᾅδης hadēs properly unseen, that is, “Hades” or the place (state) of departed souls: - grave, hell.
 
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all scripture needs to be present and accounted for, otherwise, its just guess work . or interpretation ..
It ends up being a Different gospel Not what Christ said.