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You are so right LaurieB, sheol and hades simply mean the grave. Because of tradition Strong's has a reference to subterranian retreat of the dead. Gehenna is a place like a dump where they burned dead animals and derelecks with their trash. It was considered an insult to have your body burned.
Rom. 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." It says the sinner will die. Not live forever in flames. Christianity is still trying to find its way out from under 2000 years of antichrist misinformation (tradition).
Tommy, you are so right to question the trinity doctrine as it was stated by the Nicene Creed. This Council was called by Constantine and the RCC. I view that the Father and Jesus are entities that can occupy a certain space. Not so with the Holy Spirit, it is everywhere at once. I think the label of trinity is a little off. Our finite minds cannot understand the infinite things of God. We put a label on it, and we limit it.
Tommy, you are so right to question the trinity doctrine as it was stated by the Nicene Creed. This Council was called by Constantine and the RCC. I view that the Father and Jesus are entities that can occupy a certain space. Not so with the Holy Spirit, it is everywhere at once. I think the label of trinity is a little off. Our finite minds cannot understand the infinite things of God. We put a label on it, and we limit it.
I'm not being disagreeable, but I'm not sure I'm buying what you say either.
My thing is, why can't we just be content with the bible? Why do we contrive things and make up doctrine?
You are so right LaurieB, sheol and hades simply mean the grave. Because of tradition Strong's has a reference to subterranian retreat of the dead. Gehenna is a place like a dump where they burned dead animals and derelecks with their trash. It was considered an insult to have your body burned.
Rom. 6:23: "For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." It says the sinner will die. Not live forever in flames. Christianity is still trying to find its way out from under 2000 years of antichrist misinformation (tradition).
Amen. finally someone gets it. Exactly. If there is a hell, it is not described very well in the Bible. Gehenna, that Jesus referred to was a burning garbage dump. I do not deny Jesus christ. I do worry that the we have misunderstoood the Prince f Peace, though. We only have Jesus words some 70 years AFTER his death. We have memories of what he said. Since He spoke in parables, the "way" could have meant something entirely different from what we think it meant. I read Sermon n the Mount. Jesus told us to forgive 70 x 7. could He do any less than He is asking of us. If it is faith alone, and not what we do, then why did he Minister for 3 1/2 years on how we are to treat one another. That is all that I am saying. You cannot read the bible like yesterday's newspaper. It must be read in the context of the times it wa written in. Jesus was infallible; the Bible not so much. The earth is not flat, the sun does not go around the earth, etc. Who made these mistakes? Men did. God does not make mistakes.
Like any complex subject, theology requires the use of heuristics to explain and hopefully simplify certain concepts.
Simply reading the Bible is good enough, but shouldn't we strive for more than good enough?
Simply reading the Bible is good enough, but shouldn't we strive for more than good enough?
If the Bible is fallible, then how can we trust anything in it?
You see, when you pick and choose what you like, and discard the parts you don't like, you in essence make YOURSELF out to be God.
[h=1]2 Timothy 3:16 New International Version (NIV) 16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching,rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness,[/h]
Now you can choose to believe the Bible or not, but it was written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit. I am certain a God that can call into existence the universe, is perfectly capable to deliver His message of Salvation. Which is the ONLY way is through becoming born again by accepting his Son, and Him knowing you.
All others will be in the lake of fire. Gehenna was imagery Jesus used to convey the unquenchable fire of hell. The garbage heap of Gehenna NEVER went out and everybody understood that.
Greetings LaurieB,
I completely doubt that the rich man, Abraham and Lazarus were in a tomb having their conversation in the spirit. The word Hades and Gehenna should always refer to the place of departed spirits, where qeber (Hebrew) and mnémeion (Greek) should always refer to the grave, tomb, sepulcher.
Sheol/Hades is where the departed spirits of the unrighteous dead go, which is the same place where the rich man went and was/is in torment in flame. The event of the rich man and Lazarus, which you obviously believe is a parable, is why Jesus gave it to us to understand that the spirit is conscious and aware after the death of the body. And that there is a place of punishment in literal flame. Don't think for one minute that the event of the rich man and Lazarus as being a parable, because it is a literal place under the earth where unsaved people are pouring in every day.
"Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in gehenna."
Regarding the above, do you think that Jesus was talking about God destroying people in the grave? How about the following:
"A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name
Do you think that the description above is referring to the grave?
My advise to you, is to stop believing and repeating what you hear and do some actual study on this subject. I did a study on Sheol/Hades awhile back and below shows the characteristics of this place:
Sheol/Hades, the characteristics of:
- Is down under the earth - Gen.37:35, 42:38, 44:29, 44::31, Num.16:30, 16:33, Deut.32:22, 1 Sam.2:6, 2 kings 2:6, Job 11:7-8, 17:16, Ps.30:3, 86:13, Prov.9:18, 15:24, Isa.5:14, 14:9, 14:11, 14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17, Ezk.32:21, Ezk.32:27, Mt.11:23, Lk.10:15,
- Has multiple levels - Deut.32:22, Job 11:7-8,
- Referred to as the pit - Job 17:13, Ps.30:3, Prov.1:12, Isa.14:15, Isa.38:18, Ezk.31:15-17
- Has Chambers - Prov.7:27
- Has Gates/Bars - Job 17:16, Isa.38:10, Mt.16:18
- A place of torment in fire – Lk.16:23-24
- Is a literal entity representing the same location – Rev.6:8, 20:14
Sheol (sheh-ole') The underworld (place to which the spirits of people descend at death)
Hades or the world of the dead (as if a subterranean retreat), including its accessories and inmates -- grave, hell, pit.
Hades (hah'-dace) The unseen world:
hádēs (from 1 /A "not" and idein/eidō, "see") – properly, the "unseen place," referring to the (invisible) realm in which the unrighteous dead reside, i.e. the present dwelling place of all the departed (deceased); Hades.
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No. I dont. I believe the Bible was inspired by God, but not dictated. It is not God who made mistakes; it was fallible men. Mistakes happen over the centuries in translation, mistakes happen when something that is copied over and over again is copied wrong ... one word ... can change the entire meaning. Jesus was infallible and inerrant.
Not tryintg to be God at all. the bible says the earth is flat. Do you believe that?
The Bible says the sun rotates around the sun. Do you believe that.
It says the world is 6,000 years old ... many do not believe that.
The message is clear and remains the same. It is to be found in Jesus' teachings.
I believe God created it all ... evolution just changes the "how" of it all.
I am not picking and choosing. I see what I see and I cannot unsee things like the earth is flat. I choose to say that falllible men made mistakes. that is all.
Not tryintg to be God at all. the bible says the earth is flat. Do you believe that?
The Bible says the sun rotates around the sun. Do you believe that.
It says the world is 6,000 years old ... many do not believe that.
The message is clear and remains the same. It is to be found in Jesus' teachings.
I believe God created it all ... evolution just changes the "how" of it all.
I am not picking and choosing. I see what I see and I cannot unsee things like the earth is flat. I choose to say that falllible men made mistakes. that is all.
Answer this: How could Jesus who preached love and forgivness torment people (let us say Jews here ... who grew up Jewish obeying what their parents taught them ... this is their religion ... just as christianity is my religioin). They are taught by their parents that this IS the truth. do they go to hell because they obeyed their parents and believed them? Or a Hindu for that matter. this is not willfully not knowing Jesus ... it is the sum total of where you are born, the family you are borne into.
If you were a Jew, you would be saying that Jesus was a great man, but not the son of god. Yoou would believe that because that is what you were taught. That is my point.
Do thse people who are essentially ignorant of the "truth" go to Hell for that?
I believe in justice for criminals ... but, of course that justice is God's , not mine.
If you were a Jew, you would be saying that Jesus was a great man, but not the son of god. Yoou would believe that because that is what you were taught. That is my point.
Do thse people who are essentially ignorant of the "truth" go to Hell for that?
I believe in justice for criminals ... but, of course that justice is God's , not mine.
Are you a Fundamentalist/Evangelical? That would explain the peeople on this site and why I differ with the views here.
Answer this: How could Jesus who preached love and forgivness torment people (let us say Jews here ... who grew up Jewish homes, obeying what their parents taught them ... this is their religion ... just as christianity is my religioin). They are taught by their parents that this IS the truth. do they go to hell because they obeyed their parents and believed them? And went on to have children whom they taught what they learned? Or a Hindu for that matter. This is not willfully not knowing Jesus ... it is the sum total of where you are born, the family you are borne into and what you are taught.
If you were a Jew, you would be saying that Jesus was a great man, but not the son of god. Yoou would believe that because that is what you were taught. That is my point.
Do thse people who are essentially ignorant of the "truth" go to Hell for that?
I believe in justice for those who are evil. But, I do not believe God would send innocent people to Hell because they got it wrong by place of birth and family. That is all I am really saying.
Answer this: How could Jesus who preached love and forgivness torment people (let us say Jews here ... who grew up Jewish homes, obeying what their parents taught them ... this is their religion ... just as christianity is my religioin). They are taught by their parents that this IS the truth. do they go to hell because they obeyed their parents and believed them? And went on to have children whom they taught what they learned? Or a Hindu for that matter. This is not willfully not knowing Jesus ... it is the sum total of where you are born, the family you are borne into and what you are taught.
If you were a Jew, you would be saying that Jesus was a great man, but not the son of god. Yoou would believe that because that is what you were taught. That is my point.
Do thse people who are essentially ignorant of the "truth" go to Hell for that?
I believe in justice for those who are evil. But, I do not believe God would send innocent people to Hell because they got it wrong by place of birth and family. That is all I am really saying.
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claysmithr
Guest
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kaylagrl
Guest
As usual brother superb answer and understanding of the Word. People don't like the idea of a literal hell these days. There was a song a Christian singer use to sing called "No One Believes In Me Any More",by Keith Green. All the devil has to do is make people believe they are ok no matter what religion they are and that there isn't really a hell and God is just a big ol' care bear of love. That God is not found in the Bible without also speaking of justice and judgement for those who disobey. Hell is real and Christ is Holy.We better make sure we are ready.
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kaylagrl
Guest
Im sorry,I know you don't mean it that way but stuck me funny. It reminds me of Garfield,the cat.lol