Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

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cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Hello Jocund.
There is only one living Inquisitor.

Israel?

The Israel that was defined in the scripture.

Matthew 10:6
But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Hebrews 8:8
For in finding fault with the people, He says, “Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, When I will bring about a new covenant With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel After those days, declares the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people.
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel After those days, declares the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people.

Since this is a NT book and quote, and the Church age has begun, we can correctly deduce that this is yet future. And so it is with the rest of the OT Scriptures of like manner.
 

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
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Many Israeli people have high content of Canaanite ancestry, according to at least one study. But this goes back to the dilemma of determining ancestry. There is at least one user on here that proposed the idea that when Paul converted to Christianity that he ceased being part of Israel (invalid to inherit the promises through bloodline).
Mat 1:5
Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse,

Mat 1:5
Salmon begot Boaz by Rahab, Boaz begot Obed by Ruth, Obed begot Jesse,

So we have a Canaanitess and a Moabitess in the family line from way back.

So much for that argument.
 
Jan 14, 2021
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My brother, I appreciate you sharing, and please understand that I don’t overlook or take lightly Scripture that is used to support calvinism. One thing to remember however about the Scripture you share above, don’t overlook the words, “what if.” Paul is not making a declaration but rather a statement of possibility. On another note, I love your love for the Lord.
I propose that just like Rom 9:21, Rom 9:22 is also a rhetorical question and therefore declarative rather than speculative.
 

HeIsHere

Well-known member
May 21, 2022
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I am not a Calvinist , just in case you were addressing me...
Genuine question...Is a luke warm person not someone sitting on the fence , not on one side or the other ?
Why would Jesus say He would spit them out of His mouth ?...We are either in Christ all the way , or not , no good going toe to toe with Him...

Yes I thought the same til I actually read the passage in context.

Luke warm water was dangerous to drink back in those days because it harbored bacteria. Cold water was refreshing and hot water had medicinal properties.

In verse 17 the lukewarm believer is the one who believes they have need of nothing. They are self-satisfied, not realizing their spiritual poverty, they are relying on themselves not the Grace of Christ Jesus.

I would rather err on the side of Grace and conclude that Jesus wants us to continue in his mission of providing the heart Of Him as one who what's to refresh and heal all of us. Rev 3:16.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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I’ve given it to you many times. Eph 1:13

And I have explained it many times. You have your mind set on eternal salvation by works, and you won't accept the scriptures to mean anything other than that.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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I agree, but the important point is that not all that someone might think of as being Israel would necessarily be Israel. Saul turning into Paul is an example about how the inheritance was never lost, it was just awaiting the intended timing. But it might be the case that someone like Saul could have had a fervent antiChrist father that was never in Spiritual Israel even though Saul himself was. It could even be the case that someone could have had both parents that were never part of Spiritual Israel despite the child being so.

~~
I'm still thinking on some of your other posts. I haven't forgotten them, I'm just taking my time contemplating them. I'll reply to them when I get a chance.

Cheers

I believe the scriptures to teach that Jacob, by God changing his name to be called Israel, (Gen 32:28) represents spiritual Israel, which includes most of the nation of Israel, but not all of the nation. (Rom 9:6).

Spiritual Israel consists of people from every kindred, and tongue, and nation, (Rev 5:9) who are the sum of God's elect, chosen before the foundation of the world. (Eph 1:4)

Thanks for having patience with me.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,181
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Hello Jocund.
There is only one living Inquisitor.

Israel?

The Israel that was defined in the scripture.

Matthew 10:6
But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Hebrews 8:8
For in finding fault with the people, He says, “Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, When I will bring about a new covenant With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,

Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel After those days, declares the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people.

These scriptures do, well establish, that the house of Israel is the spiritual Israel.

In many scriptures spiritual Israel is called "the house of Jacob", (Psalms 114:1), because God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Spiritual Israel/Jacob includes most of the nation of Israel, but not all of Israel (Rom 9:6).
 
Dec 21, 2020
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And I have explained it many times.
Wrongly, through your Calvinism.

You have your mind set on eternal salvation by works,
You are wrong. We are saved by faith in Christ.

and you won't accept the scriptures to mean anything other than that.
It means what it says.

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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I was reading this , this morning...He makes us how He wants to make us , some pots for decoration , some for garbage...
Considering the context in Romans 9. Is it possible that the vessels of wrath are the Jews?

Romans 9:25
“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved'.”

Romans 9:27
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel may be like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved;

Romans 9:30-31
What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, but the righteousness that is by faith; however, Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
 

Inquisitor

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Mar 17, 2022
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These scriptures do, well establish, that the house of Israel is the spiritual Israel.

In many scriptures spiritual Israel is called "the house of Jacob", (Psalms 114:1), because God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Spiritual Israel/Jacob includes most of the nation of Israel, but not all of Israel (Rom 9:6).
Romans 9:25
“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved'.”

Who were the people God loved before the switch in people that God loved. Who were they that were not loved and became the chosen?
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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You are wrong. We are saved by faith in Christ.

Saved, according to Greek translation means delivered. The only spiritual faith, that the born again child of God has, is the imputed faith that is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) which indwells a person at the time that God quickens him to the new Spiritual life. (Eph 2:1-5)

A person has already been delivered (saved) before he posses Spiritual faith.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

I don't understand why you keep sending me the same scriptures that I have already defined for you.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
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Romans 9:27
Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, “Though the number of the sons of Israel may be like the sand of the sea, only the remnant will be saved;

All of Jacob, as Israel are the adopted children of God, including the remnant of the house of Jacob/Israel. (Zeph 3:11-15).

The remnant of the house of Israel will be delivered (saved) from losing their fellowship with God, the rest of the house of Israel did, lose their fellowship with God, temporary, until they repent from turning away from God. All of the house of Israel, including the remnant, have the promise of their eternal inheritance.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Jul 8, 2018
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Who were the people God loved before the switch in people that God loved. Who were they that were not loved and became the chosen?

This statement needs a lot of rethinking on your part. Rom 9:23 These Jews and Gentiles who he called were afore prepared (Eph 1:4 & 5) unto glory.
 

Yahshua

Senior Member
Sep 22, 2013
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The seed promises were never made to an ethnic bloodline, they were made to Christ and those in Christ. Abraham, Jacob/Israel, and Isaac were each directly given the promises, and in each promise Christ is referenced (the seed).
The promises were indeed made [TO] an ethnic bloodline, we literally read that from Genesis. Christ was never spoken to by the Almighty about these promises in the OT, it was Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being spoken to when these promises were made. Almighty made promises to them. What you really mean is that those promises were exclusively [ABOUT] Christ, right? They weren't promises made TO Christ but ABOUT Christ, is what you mean?

Christ is the subject of the promises...Christ is the embodiment of all promises...while the people in Christ are the objects of the promises...they are the recipients. This is what you mean right?

Can we lock this down first?

I think it would still be the case that you would need to demonstrate that these promises were ever made exclusively to ethnic bloodlines to begin with.
Again, we need to separate promises because not all promises were made [TO] everyone. I summarize in my final bullet list below.

The scenario has interesting implications including the question of how would we ever know who is part of that ethnic group or not?
Supposing this scenario is true, we are not required to know who they are at present. The Almighty knows. And His will be done. Notwithstanding, we will know because The Messiah will be here, the resurrection will have occurred, the armies of the Beast will be destroyed, and He will lead them back into their land Himself. All of this is part of the 2nd Coming.

I know that some users have two user names. Are you also Inquisitor?
I don't go by two usernames. Not sure what that has to do with my comment. Can you enlighten me?

The 144k represent OT saints of the tribes, and the transition of John's vision to see a multitude of those dressed in white represents the change into the NT covenant, and that the 144k have blended into the crowd and become indistinct (also dressed in white/Christ).

The multitude do not represent Gentile converts, but all Christians regardless of origin, from all nations and people.
But...the scripture actually goes into which tribes specifically get sealed prior to the "winds of judgment blowing" and how many, noting that Dan isn't mentioned at all. So this is a specific count.

Recall that Paul mentioned in Romans 11 that Elijah was worried that he was the only one of his people who remained faithful, but the Almighty said he preserved 7000 men who have not bowed down to false gods. This was a specific number too.

In Revelation 14, the 144000 is mentioned again saying they are virgin men who haven't been (ceremonially) corrupted by women (intercourse; OT) and follow the lamb wherever He goes (who was also a virgin priest). Can the great multitude say they follow the lamb wherever He goes? This seems to be a strict regiment of priests like Elijah or John the Baptist.

Many Israeli people have high content of Canaanite ancestry, according to at least one study. But this goes back to the dilemma of determining ancestry. There is at least one user on here that proposed the idea that when Paul converted to Christianity that he ceased being part of Israel (invalid to inherit the promises through bloodline).

There are strange aspects of ontology that need to be hashed out to reach any consensus about ancestry.

Even the ontology of what it means to be in Christ needs to be hashed out.
I think you believe that ancestry must somehow be verified by man to validate who is and who isn't Israel? We as believers have the unfortunate tendency to try to force the fulfillment of prophecy through our own means. No, we're spectators in all of this. His will be done regardless of what we think or do. We can, however, know through the fulfillment of scripture:

- The Children of Israel were given the promise to return to the land.
- God said He will return and take them there. This is a pretty spectacular event (2nd coming)
- The resurrection will occur
- All the armies of the world will rise against Him but He will destroy them all with the sword His Mouth
- When the Children of Israel are returned to their land they will establish "unwalled" villages
- They will live in peace there and be unafraid

if these things didn't happen yet, then the people in control of the land are not the people of the promise. No 2nd coming, no resurrection, no miraculous gathering, no destruction of the world's armies...the people in the land continue to build walls and partitions, and there has been no peace since they got there.

If a promise was made to flesh, and man and wife become one in flesh, do they not then share that same promise? [Indeed] If the Church is the wife and Christ is the bridegroom, do they not share things after marriage that they did not previously share before marriage?
- There's the bridegroom...(Christ)
- There's the wife of the bridegroom...(Land promise; Ethnic Israel; Rev 19)
- There are guests invited to the wedding...(Gentile believers)
- There are the beasts of the field slaughtered for the banquet...(Beast/Antichrist Army)

- There's time of rest...(Sabbath/Millennium; teaching Gentiles the truth; satan/deception chained)

- There are the nations that surround them...(Gog/Magog Army; satan/deception loosed)
- There's the destruction of those enemies...(Fiery Judgment)
- There's the Almighty...(Father dwells with His people)
- There's the bride of Almighty...(New Jerusalem; ALL Believers; Rev 21)

- Eternity.

----

Note that there are two brides separated by 1000 years, Rev 19:7 prior to the destruction of the beast army and Rev 21:2 after the destruction of the Gog/Magog army.

The Living God must fulfill His promises made to Israel first, they are part of the 1st bride; the lesser fulfillment. Then Gentile believers are part of the 2nd bride; the greater fulfillment. God restores Israel's kingdom first, then the rest of the believers who learn to walk in the truth of the millennium receive their glory afterward.

To the Jew first, then to the Gentile.
 
Dec 21, 2020
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Saved, according to Greek translation means delivered. The only spiritual faith, that the born again child of God has, is the imputed faith that is a fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22) which indwells a person at the time that God quickens him to the new Spiritual life. (Eph 2:1-5)
God quickens people to new spiritual life when they decide to believe the Gospel.

A person has already been delivered (saved) before he posses Spiritual faith.
No, a person is not saved until he decides to believe the Gospel (Eph 1:13; Acts 2:38; Acts 16:30-31; more).

I don't understand why you keep sending me the same scriptures that I have already defined for you.
I think instead of "defined" you meant "denied."
 
Jan 14, 2021
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The promises were indeed made [TO] an ethnic bloodline, we literally read that from Genesis. Christ was never spoken to by the Almighty about these promises in the OT, it was Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob being spoken to when these promises were made. Almighty made promises to them. What you really mean is that those promises were exclusively [ABOUT] Christ, right? They weren't promises made TO Christ but ABOUT Christ, is what you mean?

Christ is the subject of the promises...Christ is the embodiment of all promises...while the people in Christ are the objects of the promises...they are the recipients. This is what you mean right?

Can we lock this down first?
No. The phrasing is very specifically promises to Abraham and Christ, then Isaac and Christ, then Jacob and Christ. "unto thy seed"

And if one becomes part of Christ, they inherit that promise.

There could be other promises, but the seed promises are specifically to Christ as the seed and no one else (unless indirectly by that person being in Christ). Otherwise Gal 3 is a lie.

I don't go by two usernames. Not sure what that has to do with my comment. Can you enlighten me?
I don't mean anything by the question. You had just replied to a comment I made to Inquisitor. I was just trying to gauge if both conversations were continuous with each other or separate. There was another user a while ago that had two different names and was responding from both accounts for a time.

Supposing this scenario is true, we are not required to know who they are at present. The Almighty knows. And His will be done. Notwithstanding, we will know because The Messiah will be here, the resurrection will have occurred, the armies of the Beast will be destroyed, and He will lead them back into their land Himself. All of this is part of the 2nd Coming.
If we suppose for a moment that 100% of the world's population fit into this category, what then?

But...the scripture actually goes into which tribes specifically get sealed prior to the "winds of judgment blowing" and how many, noting that Dan isn't mentioned at all. So this is a specific count.
To me, the question still goes back to whether these are OT saints rather than post-crucifixion saints.

Recall that Paul mentioned in Romans 11 that Elijah was worried that he was the only one of his people who remained faithful, but the Almighty said he preserved 7000 men who have not bowed down to false gods. This was a specific number too.
I'm not very familiar with what the Elijah passages being referenced.

In Revelation 14, the 144000 is mentioned again saying they are virgin men who haven't been (ceremonially) corrupted by women (intercourse; OT) and follow the lamb wherever He goes (who was also a virgin priest). Can the great multitude say they follow the lamb wherever He goes? This seems to be a strict regiment of priests like Elijah or John the Baptist.
This is a solid rebuttal. I'll have to think on this one.

I think you believe that ancestry must somehow be verified by man to validate who is and who isn't Israel? We as believers have the unfortunate tendency to try to force the fulfillment of prophecy through our own means. No, we're spectators in all of this. His will be done regardless of what we think or do. We can, however, know through the fulfillment of scripture:

- The Children of Israel were given the promise to return to the land.
- God said He will return and take them there. This is a pretty spectacular event (2nd coming)
- The resurrection will occur
- All the armies of the world will rise against Him but He will destroy them all with the sword His Mouth
- When the Children of Israel are returned to their land they will establish "unwalled" villages
- They will live in peace there and be unafraid

if these things didn't happen yet, then the people in control of the land are not the people of the promise. No 2nd coming, no resurrection, no miraculous gathering, no destruction of the world's armies...the people in the land continue to build walls and partitions, and there has been no peace since they got there.
If we take a step back to recap for a moment. I think a fair summary of your points from across the posts so far are that there are:

1) physical descendants that pertain to promises
2) those promises are currently unfulfilled but will necessarily be fulfilled in order to satisfy prophecy.
3) It is not clear which people would be physical descendants
4) The promises include returning to a specific lot of land given to Abraham
5) These physical descendants will be Christian at the fulfilment of promise
6) It can't be the current population because certain signs are required first