E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
Yeah it was.
Without the moral law I could not possibly know why I needed Christ. And the sacrifice would have been non descript (meaningless)
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Yeah it was.
Without the moral law I could not possibly know why I needed Christ. And the sacrifice would have been non descript (meaningless)
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
so the law still shows you how guilty you are.
the great.
now tell me, if your guilty, how can you be better than someone else?
Since the law required perfect obedience.
Gal 3: 10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”
E
ELECT
Guest
S
sparkman
Guest
Isaiah 66:22-24King James Version (KJV)
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
Source: https://www.gci.org/law/festivals/zech14q
[h=1]Are Prophecies Commands for Christians?[/h]Question: Prophecies suggest that the Sabbath and annual festivals will be kept in the kingdom of God (e.g., Isaiah 66:23; Zechariah 14:16-19). Does this prove that the Sabbath and annual festivals must be kept by God's people today?
Answer: The prophets described an ideal time in which all peoples worship God. To effectively convey this to old covenant peoples, the prophets described old covenant forms of worship, including new moon observances (Isaiah 66:23), sacrifices in the temple (Zechariah 14:20-21; Ezekiel 45:17) and physical circumcision (Ezekiel 44:9; Isaiah 52:1-2). But neither physical circumcision nor animal sacrifices are religious requirements for Christians. Prophecies are not an authoritative source of commands for Christian behavior.
Will sacrifices be part of future worship? Opinions vary, but regardless, it is clear that these prophecies cannot be used to prove the validity of these forms of worship for those under the new covenant, who have accepted and believe in Jesus Christ. Prophecies should be read for their purpose, but they should not be read as a source from which we can infer standards and requirements for Christians. Our doctrines must be based on scriptures that are applicable to this age, the age of the new covenant.
S
sparkman
Guest
The Ten Commandments are a summary of the Old Covenant
Exodus 34:28 “So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the word of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Exodus 31:18 “And he gave to Moses when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deut 4:13 “And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone”.
Deut 9:9 “When I went up the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant that the Lord made with you.”
Deut 9:11 “And at the end of forty days and forty nights the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.”
The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and Israel, not God and Christians
Ex 31:12-17 And the Lord said to Moses, “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.”
The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for ANYONE
Heb 8:13-9:4 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table, and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterwards, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Gal 3:24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith
Gal 3:25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a guardian
2 Cor 3:4-18 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even much more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
The Sabbath, as part of the Old Covenant, is not in affect for ANYONE
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
Rom 14:5-6 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Col 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ
Jesus is our Sabbath or spiritual rest, and we enter into that spiritual rest by placing our faith in Him
Matt 11:28-30 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and lean from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Heb 4:1-8 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest. “ although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said, “They shall not enter my rest.”. Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today”, saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted. “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had not given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from is works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Christians are under the New Covenant, which has much higher demands and different commandments
Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.”
Heb 9:15 Therefore, he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Jn 15:12 This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Jn 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
I am a former Sabbathkeeper due to my association as a new believer with Worldwide Church of God (now called Grace Communion International). Worldwide Church of God came to realize in 1995 that Christians are under the New Covenant, and not the Old Covenant, and the Sabbath does not apply to Christians under the New Covenant. It was a sign of the Old Covenant (like baptism and the Lord’s Supper are signs of the New Covenant), and is not a moral absolute like Sabbathkeepers claim. Sabbathkeeping doctrine invariably takes the focus off the true gospel, which is about Jesus Christ and salvation by grace through faith in Him (Eph 2:8-9). As a Sabbathkeeper, I rarely heard messages about God’s grace and love; the message of such organizations invariably focuses on the Sabbath. Jesus Christ was also placed on the backburner and was not the focus of their teaching. If you would like good sources of information in regards to the Sabbath check out Grace Communion International’s website at https://www.gci.org/law I now attend an Evangelical Free church that focuses on Jesus Christ and salvation through Him, which is the true gospel.
Exodus 34:28 “So he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights. He neither ate bread nor drank water. And he wrote on the tablets the word of the covenant, the Ten Commandments.
Exodus 31:18 “And he gave to Moses when he had finished speaking with him on Mount Sinai, the two tablets of the testimony, tablets of stone, written with the finger of God.
Deut 4:13 “And he declared to you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and he wrote them on two tablets of stone”.
Deut 9:9 “When I went up the mountain to receive the tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant that the Lord made with you.”
Deut 9:11 “And at the end of forty days and forty nights the Lord gave me the two tablets of stone, the tablets of the covenant.”
The Old Covenant was an agreement between God and Israel, not God and Christians
Ex 31:12-17 And the Lord said to Moses, “You are to speak to the people of Israel and say, ‘Above all you shall keep my Sabbaths, for this is a sign between me and you throughout your generations, that you may know that I, the Lord, sanctify you. You shall keep the Sabbath, because it is holy to you. Everyone who profanes it shall be put to death. Whoever does any work on it, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, holy to the Lord. Whoever does any work on the Sabbath day shall be put to death. Therefore the people of Israel shall keep the Sabbath, observing the Sabbath throughout their generations, as a covenant forever. It is a sign forever between me and the people of Israel that in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested and was refreshed.”
The Old Covenant is no longer in effect for ANYONE
Heb 8:13-9:4 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away. Now even the first covenant had regulations for worship and an earthly place of holiness. For a tent was prepared, the first section, in which were the lampstand and the table, and the bread of the Presence. It is called the Holy Place. Behind the second curtain was a second section called the Most Holy Place, having the golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden urn holding the manna, and Aaron’s staff that budded, and the tablets of the covenant.
Gal 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterwards, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void.
Gal 3:19 Why then the law? It was added because of transgressions, until the offspring should come to whom the promise had been made, and it was put in place through angels by an intermediary.
Gal 3:24 So the law was our guardian until Christ came, in order that we might be justified by faith
Gal 3:25 But now that faith is come, we are no longer under a guardian
2 Cor 3:4-18 Such is the confidence that we have through Christ toward God. Not that we are sufficient in ourselves to claim anything as coming from us, but our sufficiency is from God, who has made us sufficient to be ministers of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit. For the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone, came with such glory that the Israelites could not gaze at Moses’ face because of its glory, which was being brought to an end, will not the ministry of the Spirit have even much more glory? For if there was glory in the ministry of condemnation, the ministry of righteousness must far exceed it in glory. Indeed, in this case, what once had glory has come to have no glory at all, because of the glory that surpasses it. For if what was being brought to an end came with glory, much more will what is permanent have glory. Since we have such a hope, we are very bold, not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face so that the Israelites might not gaze at the outcome of what was being brought to an end. But their minds were hardened. For to this day, when they read the old covenant, that same veil remains unlifted, because only through Christ is it taken away. Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their hearts. But when one turns to the Lord, the veil is removed. Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. And we all with unveiled face, beholding the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from one degree of glory to another. For this comes from the Lord who is the Spirit.
The Sabbath, as part of the Old Covenant, is not in affect for ANYONE
Gal 4:10 You observe days and months and seasons and years! I am afraid I may have labored over you in vain.
Rom 14:5-6 One person esteems one day as better than another, while another esteems all days alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind.
Col 2:16-17 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath. These are a shadow of the things to come, but the substance belongs to Christ
Jesus is our Sabbath or spiritual rest, and we enter into that spiritual rest by placing our faith in Him
Matt 11:28-30 Come to me, all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you, and lean from me, for I am gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls.
Heb 4:1-8 Therefore, while the promise of entering his rest still stands, let us fear lest any of you should seem to have failed to reach it. For good news came to us just as to them, but the message they heard did not benefit them, because they were not united by faith with those who listened. For we who have believed enter that rest, as he has said, “As I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter my rest. “ although his works were finished from the foundation of the world. For he has somewhere spoken of the seventh day in this way: “And God rested on the seventh day from all his works.” And again in this passage he said, “They shall not enter my rest.”. Since therefore it remains for some to enter it, and those who formerly received the good news failed to enter because of disobedience, again he appoints a certain day, “Today”, saying through David so long afterward, in the words already quoted. “Today, if you hear his voice, do not harden your hearts.” For if Joshua had not given them rest, God would not have spoken of another day later on. So then there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from is works as God did from his. Let us therefore strive to enter that rest, so that no one may fall by the same sort of disobedience.
Christians are under the New Covenant, which has much higher demands and different commandments
Luke 22:20 And likewise the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup that is poured out for you is the new covenant in my blood.”
Heb 9:15 Therefore, he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred that redeems them from the transgressions committed under the first covenant.
Jn 13:34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
Jn 15:12 This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.
Jn 15:17 These things I command you, so that you will love one another
Rom 13:10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.
I am a former Sabbathkeeper due to my association as a new believer with Worldwide Church of God (now called Grace Communion International). Worldwide Church of God came to realize in 1995 that Christians are under the New Covenant, and not the Old Covenant, and the Sabbath does not apply to Christians under the New Covenant. It was a sign of the Old Covenant (like baptism and the Lord’s Supper are signs of the New Covenant), and is not a moral absolute like Sabbathkeepers claim. Sabbathkeeping doctrine invariably takes the focus off the true gospel, which is about Jesus Christ and salvation by grace through faith in Him (Eph 2:8-9). As a Sabbathkeeper, I rarely heard messages about God’s grace and love; the message of such organizations invariably focuses on the Sabbath. Jesus Christ was also placed on the backburner and was not the focus of their teaching. If you would like good sources of information in regards to the Sabbath check out Grace Communion International’s website at https://www.gci.org/law I now attend an Evangelical Free church that focuses on Jesus Christ and salvation through Him, which is the true gospel.
K
kellz
Guest
This is how I'm understanding it. if we believe in Jesus, (in who He says He is and what He has accomplished, and what He is doing now ) we give our entire life to God. Every day, every moment, and everything we do is for the glory of our great, long suffering God, who has done so much for us already and yet gives us great promises to stand on and to look forward to. All belongs to Him. And as for rest, He supplies us with what we need as needed. And living in Christ is rest in itself. I'm still only learning and forgive me if I've misinterpreted anything. Jesus deserves my every breathe be for His glory. Not one out seven days. May God bless me by His mercy and for His name's sake to live each day as a holy day. All glory to God!!
F
flob
Guest
very good, yes, the moral law points out sin.
(I maybe should read every post to get an answer,
instead of asking: what is a 'Sunday-keeper'?
Someone who rests on Sunday..............meaning....
they go to meetings? They don't? They don't do the lawn?
They do if it's their hobby?
What?
Thank you)
(I maybe should read every post to get an answer,
instead of asking: what is a 'Sunday-keeper'?
Someone who rests on Sunday..............meaning....
they go to meetings? They don't? They don't do the lawn?
They do if it's their hobby?
What?
Thank you)
M
Mitspa
Guest
Trying to explain how the Sabbath rest is kept in faith and that true church has always met on the first day of the week, to a SDA or those in these other Sabbath day cults is like talking to a block wall....They are in spiritual blindness and cannot ever seem to see the truth of the gospel?
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
2Co 3:14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
F
flob
Guest
S
Seeking2Serve
Guest
From personal experience I have come to regard this line of questioning as a stumbling block as spoken of by the Apostle Paul in Romans 14. There is a way that seems right to a man but the way therein leads to death, and I've come to regard this as one of them. I am now a thankful Sunday Keeper who has finally learned to heed and respect the warnings of Paul in Colossians 2:16-17! Let each person be persuaded in their own mind.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
It appears from Zec 14:16-19, that observance of Sukkot (Tabernacles) will be mandatory during the Millennium.
The Scripture you have cited seems to indicate that Sabbath and Rosh Chodesh may also be mandatory at that time.
These Scriptures:
Rom 14:4-6
4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.
5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.
6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks.
KJV
Col 2:13-17
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;
15 And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it.
16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.
KJV
clearly indicate that they are NOT mandatory now!
Historical evidence seems to indicate that until the fourth century, most believers attended Synagogue on Sabbath; and met house to house on the first day of the week, (Sunday).
S
sparkman
Guest
The Roman Catholic Church had nothing to do with changing the Sabbath to Sunday. They may claim that they did, but they make a lot of boastful claims that aren't true. This decision was made well before the Roman Catholic Church as we know existed.
Christians met with the Jews in the synagogue during the earlier years because that is where Scripture was kept..they did not have access to Scriptures of their own in many cases. They met on Sundays to discuss these Scriptures from a Christian context. They were kicked out of the synagogues in about AD90 by the Jews. This incident relates to the Eighteen Benedictions which were required recitation in the synagogues. One of the points was anti-Christian so they could not recite it in good conscience. They simply discontinued meeting with the Jews on Sabbath and continued meeting amongst themselves on Sunday.
The edict of Constantine in AD 321 did not prevent Sabbathkeepers from worshipping on the Sabbath. It merely required Sunday to be observed as a day of rest. Those who thought that the Sabbath still applied could rest on Saturday if they wanted. The vast majority of Christians were already meeting on the Sabbath well prior to 150 AD, anyways, so this edict affected few. Even SDA historian Samuele Bacchiocchi admitted this in his book "From Sabbath to Sunday", despite the story that Ellen G. White and the Seventh Day Adventist organization weaved in this regard.
In regards to the decision at Laodicea in AD363, the decision regarding Judaizing on the Sabbath was decided well before the Roman Catholic Church as we know it existed. Rome was only one of several bishoprics of the Church and had no such power. They had this kind of power after about 600 AD but not until then. So, blaming the Sabbath issue on the Catholic church is not historically tenable.
I don't believe the church should have made their decision concerning Judaizing but they were probably facing heretics as we do today which teach that the Old Covenant and ceremonial and ritualistic elements of it still apply to New Covenant Christians. We are not the nation of Israel, and were never parties to that covenant. Besides that, it is obsolete.
The reason I don't think they should have made this decision is because Jewish Christians should have been allowed the liberality of worshiping on Saturday if they wanted. The day that one worships upon should not be an issue at all, regardless of ones' preference.
Rome was only one of six or so bishoprics of the church at that time. It did not have the power to make that sort of decision. This is a conspiracy theory that some Sabbathkeepers have perpetuated. The origin is with the founders of the Seventh Day Adventist church, particularly Ellen G. White and Joseph Bates. Those who perpetuate it tend to claim that the Mark of the Beast is Sabbath-breaking and claim that both Catholicism and Protestantism is a counterfeit form of Christianity. While I agree that the Roman Catholic church is an apostate church, evangelical Protestantism is not.
Connecting Daniel 7:25 to the Sabbath rulings by the church is not reasonable. You don't know who those verses apply to, and what they apply to. They seem to have an end-time fulfillment rather than a fulfillment in history with the Catholic Church, as the verses afterwards speak of end-time events preceding the return of Christ.
Again, these sorts of assertions are an attempt to discredit Christians who meet on Sunday, usually made by cults who claim to be the true faith. They are usually led by contentious, divisive individuals. They want to discredit both Roman Catholicism and Protestantism and add to their own churches, which teach much error. The Armstrongite groups, for example, teach that they are the only true Church and that they are becoming perfected to be born into the Godhead as literal Gods in the resurrection.
I was a member of Worldwide Church of God, the parent organization of the Armstrongite movement, for 10 years. I understand the reasoning behind the typical Sabbathkeeping arguments. It seems to be a coherent argument but in reality it is a big conspiracy theory and those who are underneath this deception are sadly mistaken.
Colossians 2:16-17 says not to allow others to judge us regarding the issue of days. These verses also say that the Sabbath and Holy days are shadows, which is the same language that Hebrews 10:1-2 uses in regards to animal sacrifices. In addition, the Old Covenant is done away with so, these ceremonial and ritualistic aspects of the Law apply, and neither should Sabbathkeepers be judging Christians relating to this issue.
Christians met with the Jews in the synagogue during the earlier years because that is where Scripture was kept..they did not have access to Scriptures of their own in many cases. They met on Sundays to discuss these Scriptures from a Christian context. They were kicked out of the synagogues in about AD90 by the Jews. This incident relates to the Eighteen Benedictions which were required recitation in the synagogues. One of the points was anti-Christian so they could not recite it in good conscience. They simply discontinued meeting with the Jews on Sabbath and continued meeting amongst themselves on Sunday.
The edict of Constantine in AD 321 did not prevent Sabbathkeepers from worshipping on the Sabbath. It merely required Sunday to be observed as a day of rest. Those who thought that the Sabbath still applied could rest on Saturday if they wanted. The vast majority of Christians were already meeting on the Sabbath well prior to 150 AD, anyways, so this edict affected few. Even SDA historian Samuele Bacchiocchi admitted this in his book "From Sabbath to Sunday", despite the story that Ellen G. White and the Seventh Day Adventist organization weaved in this regard.
In regards to the decision at Laodicea in AD363, the decision regarding Judaizing on the Sabbath was decided well before the Roman Catholic Church as we know it existed. Rome was only one of several bishoprics of the Church and had no such power. They had this kind of power after about 600 AD but not until then. So, blaming the Sabbath issue on the Catholic church is not historically tenable.
I don't believe the church should have made their decision concerning Judaizing but they were probably facing heretics as we do today which teach that the Old Covenant and ceremonial and ritualistic elements of it still apply to New Covenant Christians. We are not the nation of Israel, and were never parties to that covenant. Besides that, it is obsolete.
The reason I don't think they should have made this decision is because Jewish Christians should have been allowed the liberality of worshiping on Saturday if they wanted. The day that one worships upon should not be an issue at all, regardless of ones' preference.
Rome was only one of six or so bishoprics of the church at that time. It did not have the power to make that sort of decision. This is a conspiracy theory that some Sabbathkeepers have perpetuated. The origin is with the founders of the Seventh Day Adventist church, particularly Ellen G. White and Joseph Bates. Those who perpetuate it tend to claim that the Mark of the Beast is Sabbath-breaking and claim that both Catholicism and Protestantism is a counterfeit form of Christianity. While I agree that the Roman Catholic church is an apostate church, evangelical Protestantism is not.
Connecting Daniel 7:25 to the Sabbath rulings by the church is not reasonable. You don't know who those verses apply to, and what they apply to. They seem to have an end-time fulfillment rather than a fulfillment in history with the Catholic Church, as the verses afterwards speak of end-time events preceding the return of Christ.
Again, these sorts of assertions are an attempt to discredit Christians who meet on Sunday, usually made by cults who claim to be the true faith. They are usually led by contentious, divisive individuals. They want to discredit both Roman Catholicism and Protestantism and add to their own churches, which teach much error. The Armstrongite groups, for example, teach that they are the only true Church and that they are becoming perfected to be born into the Godhead as literal Gods in the resurrection.
I was a member of Worldwide Church of God, the parent organization of the Armstrongite movement, for 10 years. I understand the reasoning behind the typical Sabbathkeeping arguments. It seems to be a coherent argument but in reality it is a big conspiracy theory and those who are underneath this deception are sadly mistaken.
Colossians 2:16-17 says not to allow others to judge us regarding the issue of days. These verses also say that the Sabbath and Holy days are shadows, which is the same language that Hebrews 10:1-2 uses in regards to animal sacrifices. In addition, the Old Covenant is done away with so, these ceremonial and ritualistic aspects of the Law apply, and neither should Sabbathkeepers be judging Christians relating to this issue.
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phil112
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sigh..................sure I can explain it, but will you listen? No. Your mind is made up.
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
He was talking to Israel, jews in a covenant relationship with God. Those jews are long dead and Christ ushered in a new covenant to include the gentile. I would give you those scriptures also, but you're not interested. You only posted this to try to prove a point that can't be proven, to cause division and gloat about how your righteousness is better than anothers.
That's sad.
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Mitspa
Guest
Marc...im not sure where your getting your historical evidence? The church, in large part, had become had become a Gentile body even at the time of Pauls epistles...and we know for sure Paul never suggested the Gentiles take up Jewish tradition and rebuked other Jewish believers for trying to bring the law upon those gentile churches he had established.
I also agree that the church was not "keeping" sunday ...they was meeting on sunday
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22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the Lord, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the Lord.
24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
well that requires all throughout the world going to Jerusalem every week, partaking in Temple worship, and surveying the corpses in the Valley of Hinnom. A little impractical if it is intended literally, don't you think?
Jesus however, saw the last part as fulfilled with regards to Gehenna. So He clearly did not take it literally. This is simply a reminder that God's people should continually worship Him, put in terms applicable to the prophet's hearers at that time. It is similar to Zech 14.
By the way do you still worship every new moon in accordance with the ancient calendar?
I stand corrected! In search of Historical evidence to prove my point (which I am sure exists) I found this which gives clear evidence that Synagogue observance was certainly not universal:
Chapter 9 - Let Us Live with Christ
If, therefore, those who were brought up in the ancient order of things have come to the possession of a new hope, no longer observing the Sabbath, but living in the observance of the Lord's Day, on which also our life has sprung up again by Him and by His death-whom some deny, by which mystery we have obtained faith, and therefore endure, that we may be found the disciples of Jesus Christ, our only Master-how shall we be able to live apart from Him, whose disciples the prophets themselves in the Spirit did wait for Him as their Teacher? And therefore He whom they rightly waited for, being come, raised them from the dead.
(from Ante-Nicene Fathers, Volume 1, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2003, 2006 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)
This is from Ignatius (disciple of John) to the Magnesians. ca. 115 A.D.