The A, B, C,s of Faith and faithing.

[studier]

Ok CRFTD, this is for you and studier,

Important to remember, the English language is not the premise or the datum point for understanding, the Greek language is. So trying to make the English language fit into the Greek won't work.

So the best way I've found to get the exact meaning of Pisteuo, is each time the word pisteuo is used in the Greek, and each time the English word believe, believer, and believing is used, replace it with the correct definition. And that is, "A personal surrender to Him and life inspired by such surrender."

Now, when you do that it may not sound right, like it doesn't work. That's because the English writers fashioned the English text for the English, not the Greek. The exact definition has to be the point of reference for understanding what they were communicating.

Let's look at your questions about love, peace, forgiveness and mercy. We aren't capable of these things. These are the outgrowth of Christ being sealed inside us.

How does that happen? It's a process, the salvation process. That process begins, is maintained, and completed by a genuine fulfillment of pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " In this process, when the Grace deposit is sealed into us, it`s Christ's love coming out, it's His forgiveness coming out, it`s His mercy coming out. He is possessing us now, and that possession is either being perfected or melting away like snow. I have a salvation process thread if anyone is interested, and some prayers that helped me.

It all starts, maintains, and is completed with "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " That's the correct response to the gift of Grace.

studier.
This is also the case for "Obedience". We are not capable of biblical obedience. Biblical obedience states that if we fail at one commandment, we are guilty of them all. If we think about hate, lust, envy, and so on even for a millisecond, we fail the terms of obedience.

How can we be obedient? The same way we love, forgive, have mercy, by the Lord Jesus Christ possessing our mortal bodies. How can He do that? By responding to the call of the Father with pisteuo, "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. "

Until pisteuo ( the offered life) is accepted, tested, and sealed, God's word and His promises are not ours yet.

This is a good time for more questions.

Jay

If we're not capable of obeying Him, then we're not capable of surrendering to Him.

If we entered relationship with Him by surrendering to Him, then we were commanded to surrender to Him - to pisteuo Him - which we're commanded to do - to pisteuo. Your surrender was obedience and more.

No matter the English we choose, by working in the Text in the original language of the Text, it attaches pisteuo to hupakouo and to peitho, so your surrender is obedience.

Biblical obedience in Christ in Spirit is not as OC obedience to Law where disobeying one commandment is breaking them all. If we think about the sins you list, then we're not being fully surrendered to Him - we're not obeying Him - we're not pisteuoing Him.

You've been taught something that you're settled in that you're comfortable with. I can easily grasp the sense of it. IMO it's leagues ahead of the systems that strip pisteuo and pistis of it's biblical meaning. It's based in a paraphrasing of the Greek Text that is not the only wording available to us. The Scott's and Vine are not the only ones defining words or inserting theology into dictionaries or lexical tools.

With respect, others come here to recommend their teachers. The consistent attitude expressed is that others need to listen to their teachers or they do not know the Bible. Some even take this into saying those who disagree with them are satanic.

 

[studier]

@Watchman22 post #58

"Studier

They call Dr. Scott the teachers teacher.

I'm happy your living a surrendered life. I'm always reminding myself two things, genuine not perfect, and a half measure will avail nothing. Dr. Scott has a mountain of teaching on faith and faithing, hard to find online.

That expectation you are referencing is all wrapped up in pisteuo. A, B, C,s of Faith and faithing. The "act" of a personal surrender to Him. " Based upon a belief " that God will accept the surrendered life. "Sustained by confidence " that He will keep and protect the surrendered life. All other expectations are the result of the relationship."

My response:

"They" call other teachers similar things. They said the same thing about my Pastor-Teacher. I hate to insert this, but I had at least one repeatedly say the same thing about me when I was teaching. "They" are just they.

Melissa Scott's published bio says the same thing about her. Does it count if "they" is her?

There are a lot of opinions and much favoritism in Christendom.

Will you begin using Scripture at some point? The problem with paraphrased terminology is that it will conflict with others' paraphrased terminology. For example, I said something to the effect that I am likely living what you would call a surrendered life, yet I wouldn't necessarily call it that. Nevertheless, you're calling it that in a way that makes it sound like I agreed to it.

Others for example refer to this life as the Christian Life, the Life of Faith, Life in Christ, the Christian Spiritual Life, and so on, because they've been taught by others.

Having been earlier taught mostly by a contemporary of Scott's, who also taught intensely from the original languages, I was filled with paraphrased and made-up terminology. Over time while using his terminology I began to see it for what it was - as just his - and it had became a task just to teach what it meant, which distracted from teaching the Text itself. It also tended to create a kind of arrogance - if someone didn't know the manufactured terminology, then they didn't know the Text. Yet many would just learn the terminology and not the Text.

I ended up going back to the Text and try to stay as close to it as I can. I do understand that translation into English is a task and is imprecise. Even our lexical tools differ. It would probably be better if we all just learned the original languages and could think in them. But even then we'd have to learn to use the words the way God uses them and to seek His meanings and definitions from Him and His Text.

 

[studier]

Until pisteuo ( the offered life) is accepted, tested, and sealed, God's word and His promises are not ours yet.

Why don't you expand on this. As you likely have been taught, the insertion of "tested" as you've placed it in this process is not the norm.

If you can, please use Scripture.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Let's look at your questions about love, peace, forgiveness and mercy. We aren't capable of these things. These are the outgrowth of Christ being sealed inside us.

Actually my question wasn't about love; I just used practical examples of it to point to what I'd like to see regarding the term surrender. Those examples of love I gave are things that we can practice any moment of any day, which transform our character into the image of Christ when they become habititual.

We can be told all day long to love, but unless we're shown in practical terms how to do that, it's not much use because love is a general term that can mean different things to different people, and consequently it tends to become a spiritual aspiration that Christians talk a lot about, but oftentimes rarely do in a meaningful way.

So if you could put surrender into practical terms that show us how to do it, that would be great

 

[Watchman22]

If we're not capable of obeying Him, then we're not capable of surrendering to Him.

If we entered relationship with Him by surrendering to Him, then we were commanded to surrender to Him - to pisteuo Him - which we're commanded to do - to pisteuo. Your surrender was obedience and more.

No matter the English we choose, by working in the Text in the original language of the Text, it attaches pisteuo to hupakouo and to peitho, so your surrender is obedience.

Biblical obedience in Christ in Spirit is not as
OC obedience to Law where disobeying one commandment is breaking them all. If we think about the sins you list, then we're not being fully surrendered to Him - we're not obeying Him - we're not pisteuoing Him.

You've been taught something that you're settled in that you're comfortable with. I can easily grasp the sense of it. IMO it's leagues ahead of the systems that strip pisteuo and pistis of it's biblical meaning. It's based in a paraphrasing of the Greek Text that is not the only wording available to us. The Scott's and Vine are not the only ones defining words or inserting theology into dictionaries or lexical tools.

With respect, others come here to recommend their teachers. The consistent attitude expressed is that others need to listen to their teachers or they do not know the Bible. Some even take this into saying those who disagree with them are satanic.

Studier
This is the beauty of what Christ did for us. To be obedient enough to receive His Grace deposit requires perfection, even in thought. Faith and faithings only requirement is that it's genuine. This is basic Christianity, if you need the scriptures to back that up, I'm sure you know how to do that.

OK, you said, obedience is surrender. And paradoxically that is correct. Obedience, trust, believing, commitment, reliance upon, are all "elements" of surrender. But if you take any of them on their own to receive His spirit, that would be error. All of them on their own is not faithing or pisteuo. Pisteuo is 3 things in one, an act (the initial, genuine surrendered life), based upon a belief (that He will accept the surrendered life), sustained by confidence) by making all the hundreds of daily decisions that support the fact that our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.
And your inching towards the Vines definition of pisteuo being just my opinion. Let's keep that anchor in place.

Just to elaborate, Dr. Scott validated the foundation that was laid by God, before I ever met Him. Most of the understandings I'm presenting to you are truths the Holy Spirit has built on that foundation. Important to remember, I'm focusing on the response to the call of the Father at the beginning of the salvation journey.

You asked for scriptures that support the testing or the approving of faith and faithing , NT pisteuo.
The word in the Greek is "dokimazo", from dokimos, to test.
Dokimazo is defined as to prove used 10 times, to allow used 2 times, to discern used 2 times, to examine used time, also to approve.

Her ar the scriptures on the testing of faith and faithing.
James 1:2-4, 1:12, 1:3-4
1 Peter 1:6-7
2cor. 13:5
Rev. 2:10
Heb. 11:1, 11:6
Mt 17:26

As for "obedience" being different in the NT than it is in the OT, I'm not with you on that one. Even though we aren't under OT law anymore, the spiritual law of "obedience " is just as important and just as real as the laws in the temporal realm. If pisteuo is fulfilled correctly, obedience will flow forth. So I consider that to be Him, not us.
I need to know your in agreement with that last statement or not.

I only mentioned the instrument God used to perfect me because you asked. You've, been asking alot of the right questions which is rare. I hope I've given you the scriptures you can discern as support for God testing, approving the initial act of pisteuo or saving faith.

If your good with the response to the call of the Father being "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender "i will start another thread on the process of said surrender.

Are we good?

Jay

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

This is the beauty of what Christ did for us. To be obedient enough to receive His Grace deposit requires perfection, even in thought.

What is a grace deposit?

 

[Watchman22]

Actually my question wasn't about love; I just used practical examples of it to point to what I'd like to see regarding the term surrender. Those examples of love I gave are things that we can practice any moment of any day, which transform our character into the image of Christ when they become habititual.

We can be told all day long to love, but unless we're shown in practical terms how to do that, it's not much use because love is a general term that can mean different things to different people, and consequently it tends to become a spiritual aspiration that Christians talk a lot about, but oftentimes rarely do in a meaningful way.

So if you could put surrender into practical terms that show us how to do it, that would be great

I was hoping for an agreement on the Vines definition first. If i can get some kind of consensus on the correct definition of pisteuo, which is saving faith, i can start a thread on how it's applied.

Do you accept the Vines definition of pisteuo? "A personal to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. "

Jay

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

I was hoping for an agreement on the Vines definition first. If i can get some kind of consensus on the correct definition of pisteuo, which is saving faith, i can start a thread on how it's applied.

Do you accept the Vines definition of pisteuo? "A personal to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. "

Jay

I can't agree the word surrender is an accurate reflection of reality until I understand what it means in the context you're using it. It's like the word love. Define surrender in practical terms and I will be able to comprehend what you mean.

 

[Watchman22]

What is a grace deposit?

The Grace deposit is what the Greek texts Identify as an actual piece of God Himself that is imputed to us by "Grace through faith ".

We mostly call it the indwelling HolySpirit, or the mind of Christ. The indwelling Holy Spirit is well documented on what happens when that happens. The mind of Christ is a different story, it tells us nothing about what happens to the faither when the mind of Christ is given. It's the secret part of the relationship. And it gives that one the discernment to know others that have received it, or not.

Jay

 

[Watchman22]

I can't agree the word surrender is an accurate reflection of reality until I understand what it means in the context you're using it. It's like the word love. Define surrender in practical terms and I will be able to comprehend what you mean.

I'm not going to repeat the Op, it's right there. With respect.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

The Grace deposit is what the Greek texts Identify as an actual piece of God Himself that is imputed to us by "Grace through faith ".

We mostly call it the indwelling HolySpirit, or the mind of Christ. The indwelling Holy Spirit is well documented on what happens when that happens. The mind of Christ is a different story, it tells us nothing about what happens to the faither when the mind of Christ is given. It's the secret part of the relationship. And it gives that one the discernment to know others that have received it, or not.

Jay

IMO the mind of Christ is us putting to death high-minded, carnal thoughts so that we may hear and hearken to the lowly voice of the spirit speaking in our hearts. It sounds like what you're talking about is secret hidden knowledge.

 

[studier]

This is the beauty of what Christ did for us. To be obedient enough to receive His Grace deposit requires perfection, even in thought. Faith and faithings only requirement is that it's genuine. This is basic Christianity, if you need the scriptures to back that up, I'm sure you know how to do that.

We're divergent here.

We're commanded to pisteuo in the name of God's Son Jesus Christ. Our initial pisteuo is obedience to God's command.

This is not a command requiring perfection, which would be to import the scheme of personal righteousness into the reality of personal submission to God in coming to pisteuo in His Son.

OK, you said, obedience is surrender. And paradoxically that is correct. Obedience, trust, believing, commitment, reliance upon, are all "elements" of surrender. But if you take any of them on their own to receive His spirit, that would be error. All of them on their own is not faithing or pisteuo. Pisteuo is 3 things in one, an act (the initial, genuine surrendered life), based upon a belief (that He will accept the surrendered life), sustained by confidence) by making all the hundreds of daily decisions that support the fact that our lives are not ours anymore, but His now.
And your inching towards the Vines definition of pisteuo being just my opinion. Let's keep that anchor in place.

It's not a paradox - on part, it's basic logic from Scripturejust covered above.

And my point is that pisteuo and obedience are unified in God's Word, so to try to separate them would be the actual error. IOW, we cannot separate them in regard to pisteuo in Jesus Christ, because God has joined them. As such pisteuo <> obedience and obedience <> pisteuo.

Vine's definition is not my anchor and as I've said, "surrender" is reading into the verses he referenced. Feel free to retain that anchor. I'll likely be challenging you to consider Scripture and what it actually says.

Just to elaborate, Dr. Scott validated the foundation that was laid by God, before I ever met Him. Most of the understandings I'm presenting to you are truths the Holy Spirit has built on that foundation. Important to remember, I'm focusing on the response to the call of the Father at the beginning of the salvation journey.

As discussed, Dr. Scott is not my reference and apart from an actual lesson you can point me to, with respect, you are a 2nd generation of his teaching and thus a filtered version. So, I'll be dealing with what you say, or what I might see or read from him along the way.

OK, let's focus on the beginning of the Salvation process. What I've said above about faith/obedience pertains to initially coming to pisteuo commanded by God.

You asked for scriptures that support the testing or the approving of faith and faithing , NT pisteuo.
The word in the Greek is "dokimazo", from dokimos, to test.
Dokimazo is defined as to prove used 10 times, to allow used 2 times, to discern used 2 times, to examine used time, also to approve.

Her ar the scriptures on the testing of faith and faithing.
James 1:2-4, 1:12, 1:3-4
1 Peter 1:6-7
2cor. 13:5
Rev. 2:10
Heb. 11:1, 11:6
Mt 17:26

I'm very familiar with dokimazo and cognates. What you say here does not explain why you placed it in the process as you did before sealing.

As for "obedience" being different in the NT than it is in the OT, I'm not with you on that one. Even though we aren't under OT law anymore, the spiritual law of "obedience " is just as important and just as real as the laws in the temporal realm. If pisteuo is fulfilled correctly, obedience will flow forth. So I consider that to be Him, not us.
I need to know your in agreement with that last statement or not.

I can tell you're not with me on this and as I essentially said above, I'm not with you either.

Where I'm not with you is again seen in what I've highlighted above. I see very clearly from the Text that pisteuo and obedience are intertwined and inseparable. In other threads I've taken this into language like "functionally equivalent". Simply put, if we don't have one, then we don't have the other - if we have one, then we have the other. We have yet to get into the Text for me to show this to you.

Obedience does not flow from pisteuo, but is an intrinsic part of pisteuo. Not understanding this causes those who don't see pisteuo as you do, to call obedience "works salvation," which oddly enough, you're seemingly tending towards.

Apart from Him and His work, we have neither as they are tied together.

I've heard or read Melissa Scott use the word "prevenient" as in prevenient grace. Did Gene Scott teach this?

I only mentioned the instrument God used to perfect me because you asked. You've, been asking alot of the right questions which is rare. I hope I've given you the scriptures you can discern as support for God testing, approving the initial act of pisteuo or saving faith.

If your good with the response to the call of the Father being "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender "i will start another thread on the process of said surrender.

Are we good?

See above.

 

[Watchman22]

IMO the mind of Christ is us putting to death high-minded, carnal thoughts so that we may hear and hearken to the lowly voice of the spirit speaking in our hearts. It sounds like what you're talking about is secret hidden knowledge.

Let's keep the topic here..
Can you accept the Vines definition of pisteuo? If you can't i would be wasting my time sharing my understanding on how it's applied to our daily lives.

Your call.

Jay

 

[studier]

What is a grace deposit?

The Grace deposit is what the Greek texts Identify as an actual piece of God Himself that is imputed to us by "Grace through faith ".

We mostly call it the indwelling HolySpirit, or the mind of Christ. The indwelling Holy Spirit is well documented on what happens when that happens. The mind of Christ is a different story, it tells us nothing about what happens to the faither when the mind of Christ is given. It's the secret part of the relationship. And it gives that one the discernment to know others that have received it, or not.

Jay

I can't agree the word surrender is an accurate reflection of reality until I understand what it means in the context you're using it. It's like the word love. Define surrender in practical terms and I will be able to comprehend what you mean.

Jay:

This is what I meant by theological terminology developed by different teachers. You're going to spend a good deal of your time explaining terminology.

 

[studier]

Let's keep the topic here..
Can you accept the Vines definition of pisteuo? If you can't i would be wasting my time sharing my understanding on how it's applied to our daily lives.

Your call.

Jay

Why don't you explain your A, B, C concept step by step and base it on some Scripture.

 

[Watchman22]

We're divergent here.

We're commanded to pisteuo in the name of God's Son Jesus Christ. Our initial pisteuo is obedience to God's command.

This is not a command requiring perfection, which would be to import the scheme of personal righteousness into the reality of personal submission to God in coming to pisteuo in His Son.



It's not a paradox - on part, it's basic logic from Scripturejust covered above.

And my point is that pisteuo and obedience are unified in God's Word, so to try to separate them would be the actual error. IOW, we cannot separate them in regard to pisteuo in Jesus Christ, because God has joined them. As such pisteuo <> obedience and obedience <> pisteuo.

Vine's definition is not my anchor and as I've said, "surrender" is reading into the verses he referenced. Feel free to retain that anchor. I'll likely be challenging you to consider Scripture and what it actually says.



As discussed, Dr. Scott is not my reference and apart from an actual lesson you can point me to, with respect, you are a 2nd generation of his teaching and thus a filtered version. So, I'll be dealing with what you say, or what I might see or read from him along the way.

OK, let's focus on the beginning of the Salvation process. What I've said above about faith/obedience pertains to initially coming to pisteuo commanded by God.



I'm very familiar with dokimazo and cognates. What you say here does not explain why you placed it in the process as you did before sealing.



I can tell you're not with me on this and as I essentially said above, I'm not with you either.

Where I'm not with you is again seen in what I've highlighted above. I see very clearly from the Text that pisteuo and obedience are intertwined and inseparable. In other threads I've taken this into language like "functionally equivalent". Simply put, if we don't have one, then we don't have the other - if we have one, then we have the other. We have yet to get into the Text for me to show this to you.

Obedience does not flow from pisteuo, but is an intrinsic part of pisteuo. Not understanding this causes those who don't see pisteuo as you do, to call obedience "works salvation," which oddly enough, you're seemingly tending towards.

Apart from Him and His work, we have neither as they are tied together.

I've heard or read Melissa Scott use the word "prevenient" as in prevenient grace. Did Gene Scott teach this?



See above.

We're not commanded to fulfill pisteuo, we're "called" to fulfill pisteuo.

Pisteuo is used 248 times, with the definition "a personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " the English tries to use single words to communicate pisteuo, but that can't be done as I've eluded to in previous posts. Feel free to try and undo that mess, I'm not addressing that here in this thread.

Your attempting to attach Dr. Scott to me as kind of like a ball in chain. He taught that pisteuo could not be translated into the English. He taught the ABCs of faith. That validated my experience. That was all I needed to stand on his shoulders to get a better look at the first goer.

All I've asked of you so far is if you agree with the vines Greek dictionary, that pisteuo or the application of faith to God just as it says, is "A personal surrender to Him and a life inspired by such surrender. " you seemed to agree, but insist that obedience carries the same definition.

I've answered your concern correctly, and would fall in line with what Gene Scott taught.

So let's get out of the weeds and reset.
Do you agree with the Vines definition enough to go onto the salvation journey?

Ps. I never heard Dr. Scott mention the Vines definition of pisteuo once.

Jay

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

We're not commanded to fulfill pisteuo, we're "called" to fulfill pisteuo.

You need to define what you mean by "called"

 

[Watchman22]

Why don't you explain your A, B, C concept step by step and base it on some Scripture.

Are you saying the Vines definition of pisteuo isn't scriptural?

I keep telling you to remember, this initial surrendered life is "before " we are in Christ. So His Word and the promises therein are not ours yet.

I've given you correct definition, that's the starting point . The only scripture that would be relevant is the life, work, death, and resurrection, of Christ. The one who made pisteuo possible.

I know of at least twice I've gone through the ABCs of faith the way the Vines defines it on this thread. We're going in circles here.

I've been here and done that before.
Do you agree with the Vines enough to move forward?

Jay

 

[Watchman22]

You need to define what you mean by "called"

Nobody comes to Christ unless the Father calls them.

I guess I'm assuming a basic understanding of Christianity and God's word here.
Should I not assume that?

Or , if your testing my spirit, that's perfectly ok.

JAY

 

[Watchman22]

the title reminds me of don gosset, "the alphabet preacher". i saw him preach in the late 90's in albany new york.

Sorry Karlon,
I've never heard of him before.