The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[cv5]

I don't think the quote you made is not without merit:

Mat 2:15 He stayed there until Herod died. In this way what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet was fulfilled: "I called my Son out of Egypt."

How would anyone know what this prophecy meant until it was fulfilled|?

My quote? Don't blame me for that quote. Blame that Truth7t7 guy. I was quoting it for comedic purposes only.

 

[Mii]

The timing of the rapture is provided. The rapture occurs just before the man of sin is revealed. In fact it is the rapture that is the event that ALLOWS the man of sin to be revealed! Since the man of sin has not yet been revealed, and the rapture is not yet occurred, therefore it must occur at some point in the future. Very straightforward, logical and rational.

That was my conclusion as well. I draw that from the one who restrains is taken out of the way or no longer restrains...I don't recall precisely which verse it is. I just assumed that "the rapture" takes place at that moment...although I am uncertain why I felt that at the time. Probably because it just doesn't seem right to me that believers be here with his presence revealed.

Can you post the scripture references for your conclusion. It was simply something that just clicked one night in a very unpleasant moment. I'd love to share it, but the inspiration and what it felt like was quite grueling...it was like a glimpse of what is being restrained and what would occur if I were to remain and why there indeed is a "mission complete" moment.

I have a pretty big heart and judgement is pretty scary. Almost like, "are you sure Lord? ...maybe if one more word was spoken or just a little more time..." but that moment made it pretty clear to me there will be a line. A time where grace is past. I still think a tiny trickle of an opportunity of grace will be available but perhaps that's just idealism in me of a final altar call in a message of wrath revealed just prior to eternal death, which is what I see the 3.5 year testimony as.

The missionary in me just doesn't sit with a message only as a testimony against someone...unless it has a purpose to convict however small/narrow the application.

Anyway, lmk what references you draw that from...I'm not the best at pinpointing specific references.

 

[cv5]

I don't think the quote you made is not without merit:

Mat 2:15 He stayed there until Herod died. In this way what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet was fulfilled: "I called my Son out of Egypt."

How would anyone know what this prophecy meant until it was fulfilled|?

BTW.....That theory doesn't hold water under scrutiny.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Hosea-11-1-Messianic.htm

"In summary, Hosea 11:1 is not a Messianic prophecy in the same way that prophecies such as Isaiah 9:6 are. Rather, it is a pictorial prophecy; that is, there are similarities in the Old Testament passage to a New Testament truth about Christ. This Old Testament “picture” of Christ is called a “type.” Matthew 2:15 can be seen as an analogy. Matthew is providing a connection between Jesus and God’s people of promise. As a Jew writing for primarily Jewish readers, Matthew found it important to point out many of the similarities between the nation of Israel and their Messiah, the One to fulfill the Prophets (Matthew 5:17)."

 

[cv5]

That was my conclusion as well. I draw that from the one who restrains is taken out of the way or no longer restrains...I don't recall precisely which verse it is. I just assumed that "the rapture" takes place at that moment...although I am uncertain why I felt that at the time. Probably because it just doesn't seem right to me that believers be here with his presence revealed.

Can you post the scripture references for your conclusion. It was simply something that just clicked one night in a very unpleasant moment. I'd love to share it, but the inspiration and what it felt like was quite grueling...it was like a glimpse of what is being restrained and what would occur if I were to remain and why there indeed is a "mission complete" moment.

I have a pretty big heart and judgement is pretty scary. Almost like, "are you sure Lord? ...maybe if one more word was spoken or just a little more time..." but that moment made it pretty clear to me there will be a line. A time where grace is past. I still think a tiny trickle of an opportunity of grace will be available but perhaps that's just idealism in me of a final altar call in a message of wrath revealed just prior to eternal death, which is what I see the 3.5 year testimony as.

The missionary in me just doesn't sit with a message only as a testimony against someone...unless it has a purpose to convict however small/narrow the application.

Anyway, lmk what references you draw that from...I'm not the best at pinpointing specific references.

2 Thess Ch 2.
The chapter that indicates the timing of the rapture.
Time for bed now chat later thanks for asking. Buzz you tomorrow God willing.

 

[cv5]

The timing of the "rapture" in Thessalonians is very specifically, and literally from context, bound to the lifetimes of the listeners, though:

1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

The interpretation of the time of Christ's coming must satisfy all the Scriptures, not only a few.

You've got that all wrong. Good night time for bed.

 

[cv5]

We agree pretty much on this point. ^



Jesus spoke of it throughout His entire earthly ministry (first advent)... every time that He spoke of:

--"the kingdom OF THE heavenS"
--"the age [SINGULAR] to come"
--"the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"
--the "G347 - 'shall sit down' [around a table/at a meal]"
--the TWO times He referred to "RETURN" [re: Himself], Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN," and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and their parallels], "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom), THEN the meal!
--the times He told "the 12" they would "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel"
--when He referred to "in the regeneration when..." (that ^ reference [one of them])... "when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of His glory" [<--this being His EARTHLY "throne" upon His RETURN to the earth (there will be NO "goats" in Heaven, for example, Matt25:31-34 [parallel parts of Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50])]
--ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" references (referring to His RETURN to the earth; NOT "our Rapture") to "judge and to reign"
--many more references...


Up till the time He spoke His Olivet Discourse (and INCLUDING IT), He had NOT YET spoken to them ANYTHING about anything else but [what we call] "the promised AND PROPHESIED *earthly* Millennial Kingdom".



It is man's imagination that believes any and all of the above "contexts" ^ refer to "UP IN Heaven" INSTEAD, which they do not.

Amen. The Scriptural support for a future literal millennial reign is staggeringly overwhelming.
That is why I am constantly flabbergasted and exasperated by the amillennialists.

But in my honest opinion I believe they are heretics whom God's has cursed with unbelief (this due to their outright denial of the truth of the Word) and then ignorance. BTW, ignorance always follows unbelief never before. I also believe that their vocal loathing of Israel has a lot to do with it.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Jesus spoke of it throughout His entire earthly ministry (first advent)... every time that He spoke of:
--"the kingdom OF THE heavenS"
--"the age [SINGULAR] to come"
--"the wedding FEAST/SUPPER"
--the "G347 - 'shall sit down' [around a table/at a meal]"
--the TWO times He referred to "RETURN" [re: Himself], Lk19:12,15,17,19 "RETURN," and Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-44 [and their parallels], "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding..." (i.e. as an ALREADY-WED Bridegroom), THEN the meal!
--the times He told "the 12" they would "sit on 12 thrones, judgING the 12 tribes of Israel"
--when He referred to "in the regeneration when..." (that ^ reference [one of them])... "when the Son of man shall sit on the throne of His glory" [<--this being His EARTHLY "throne" upon His RETURN to the earth (there will be NO "goats" in Heaven, for example, Matt25:31-34 [parallel parts of Matt13:24,30,39,40,49-50])]
--ALL "Son of man cometh/coming/shall come/etc" references (referring to His RETURN to the earth; NOT "our Rapture") to "judge and to reign"
--many more references...


Up till the time He spoke His Olivet Discourse (and INCLUDING IT), He had NOT YET spoken to them ANYTHING about anything else but [what we call] "the promised AND PROPHESIED *earthly* Millennial Kingdom".



It is man's imagination that believes any and all of the above "contexts" ^ refer to "UP IN Heaven" INSTEAD, which they do not.

oh yeah... and (I forgot to include, another reference to same):

--the 8 or 10 "BLESSED" references that speak of same (ex: Dan12:12 "BLESSED," Rev16:15-16 "BLESSED," Rev19:9 [distinct from v.7] "BLESSED," Lk12:36-37,38,40,42-22 "BLESSED," Matt24:44-46 "BLESSED," Matt25:31-34 "BLESSED," and a number of others... same time-slot and setting: their entrance into the earthly MK age)


[see also Mk11:10]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

[ ^ Mk11:10 - 10 “Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father, David!”
“Hosanna in the highest!” ]



Later, in Acts 1 (after 40 days of His teaching on the Subject, after His resurrection), He did not CORRECT their notion... He merely responded to their Q of Him regarding its TIMING. [which He said was not for THEM to know... the TIMING of it ]

 

[Guojing]

[ ^ Mk11:10 - 10 “Blessed is the coming kingdom of our father, David!”
“Hosanna in the highest!” ]



Later, in Acts 1 (after 40 days of His teaching on the Subject, after His resurrection), He did not CORRECT their notion... He merely responded to their Q of Him regarding its TIMING. [which He said was not for THEM to know... the TIMING of it ]

Yep I agree. Many people here disagree on this and insisted that Jesus was correcting their ignorance about the actual physical kingdom, that it does not exist.

 

[Truth7t7]

The 1260 days, 42 months and a time, times and a half a time, all represent the seven year period described in Daniel 9:27.


The Gentiles trample the holy city = 42 months

The two witnesses = Prophesy for 1260 days

The woman/Israel flees out into the desert = 1260 days or a time, times and half a time

The beast makes war agains the great tribulation saints = 42 months

The seven years described in Daniel 9:27 are divided into two 3 1/2 year period, the dividing event being the setting up of the abomination that cause desolation.

It is my conclusion that the time of the prophesy of the two witnesses will be from the beginning of the seven years to the middle. And that because in Rev.12, in the middle of the seven the woman/Israel flees out into the wilderness for 3 1/2 years up until the Lord returns to the earth to end the age. That would mean that if we put the time of prophecy of the two witnesses as beginning from the middle of the seven years to the end, Israel would not be there to hear their prophesies, because they will have already fled. In addition, since the beast comes up out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet, it would mean that he would have to wait for over 3 1/2 years before he could kill the two witnesses.

The time of when the beast makes war and conquers the great tribulation saints, will be from the middle of the seven years to the end when Jesus returns. This is also the same time that the woman/Israel is cared for out in the wilderness.

I believe the 1260 days in Rev 11:3 and 42months in Rev 13:5 are "Parallel" in a future event when the literal two witnesses, prophets returned Enoch/Elijah who never saw death, they will stand day for day against the future Antichrist of Daniel, Little Horn, Man Of Sin, The Beast, pick your name.

It will be a 3.5 year remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt, water to blood, all plagues as often as they will.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

So your view is that, BUT NOW, the gospel of the kingdom is not being preached at the moment? That happens to be my doctrine too.
[...]
So whatever the contents of the gospel of the kingdom you claim, it must also be that gospel that is being preached now right?

As I already referred to in my post, "this gospel of the kingdom" (Matt24:14[Matt26:13]) is what WILL BE being preached IN/DURING the trib years [on the earth] (that is, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"/"THE Departure" of us "IN THE AIR"--i.e. "our episynagoges UNTO HIM");

...it is not being "preached" NOW; it pertains to and will INVOLVE their giving the message [at that (future) time] of the VERY NEAR ARRIVAL of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (which will commence [in earnest] upon His "RETURN" to the earth). It will not be "preached" by "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," who will not be present on the earth during the trib years.

It pertains to "the promised AND PROPHESIED *earthly* Millennial Kingdom, and its (then) VERY SOON ARRIVAL (upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 and related passages I already listed--You may recall I believe "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is shown to be IN HEAVEN *before* the FIRST SEAL, [with "stephanos/crowns" and on "thrones"] and are saying in Rev5:9 "hast redeemed US")

 

[Truth7t7]

Isa_45:17 But Israel shall be saved in the LORD with an everlasting salvation: ye shall not be ashamed nor confounded world without end.
Eph_3:21 Unto him be glory in the church by Christ Jesus throughout all ages, world without end. Amen.

There are two places in the bible that says the world doesn't end but in other places it says that the world does end. So there is more than one meaning of "world" used in the bible. So when the disciples ask about the end of the world, which world were they talking about?

As stated Matthew 24:3 and the whole chapter of Matthew 24 surrounds Matthew24:3 "THE QUESTION"?

As I said, the generation Jesus was talking about was a "Future" generation, those that would witness "All" the "Future Events"

Just as the complete chapter of Matthew 24 evolves around two questions as seen in Matthew 24:3 below?

"Future Events"

1. Jesus Second Coming

2. The End Of This World.

Matthew 24:3KJV
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

KJV1611 "Submit" to presented "Truth"!

The generation that shall not pass, will witness the "Day/Hour" no man knows?

The Second Coming, A Future Event!

Matthew 24:32-39KJV
32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
33 so likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
39 and knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

 

[Guojing]

As I already referred to in my post, "this gospel of the kingdom" (Matt24:14[Matt26:13]) is what WILL BE being preached IN/DURING the trib years [on the earth] (that is, FOLLOWING "our Rapture"/"THE Departure" of us "IN THE AIR"--i.e. "our episynagoges UNTO HIM");

...it is not being "preached" NOW; it pertains to and will INVOLVE their giving the message [at that (future) time] of the VERY NEAR ARRIVAL of the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom (which will commence [in earnest] upon His "RETURN" to the earth). It will not be "preached" by "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," who will not be present on the earth during the trib years.

It pertains to "the promised AND PROPHESIED *earthly* Millennial Kingdom, and its (then) VERY SOON ARRIVAL (upon His "RETURN" to the earth Rev19 and related passages I already listed--You may recall I believe "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" is shown to be IN HEAVEN *before* the FIRST SEAL, [with "stephanos/crowns" and on "thrones"] and are saying in Rev5:9 "hast redeemed US")

Yep, so my original point to you was that:

There is no sense in believing the pre-trib rapture of the Body of Christ and at the same time, be a covenant theologist.

These 2 doctrines are not compatible with each other.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Yep, so my original point to you was that:

There is no sense in believing the pre-trib rapture of the Body of Christ and at the same time, be a covenant theologist.

These 2 doctrines are not compatible with each other.

I personally haven't noticed anyone in this thread (or others) claiming to hold to both the "pre-trib rapture" doctrine AND "covenant theology"... apparently you have noticed some who [claim to] hold to both??

 

[Guojing]

I personally haven't noticed anyone in this thread (or others) claiming to hold to both the "pre-trib rapture" doctrine AND "covenant theology"... apparently you have noticed some who [claim to] hold to both??

Yes of course I do, Absolutely and Nehemiah6 are two of them.

 

[DorothyMae]

We should all know the day and the hr if it is happened and done .. Matt 24:36 36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

The measure of whether something happened or not is not that "we all know it." There are those who refuse the truth and do not know it then. There are those who are ignore, sometimes unwillingly or sometimes willingly. Jesus can speak of a future event that no one knows but once it is past, it can be known by those who seek the truth and have some means to find it out. Again, the measure of whether an event occured is not that we are all aware of it.

Something those who think the whole of Revelation is in the future do not think about is that when what they think will happen in ISrael happens, there is no assurance that it will be covered by the 6 o'clock news with live feed. IOW, if what is happening in the streets of Jerusalem are not known around the world today, when it is peaceful, certainly in a time when armies are surrounding it will not be a time when it will be known then.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ Well, I know that "Absolutely" thinks there will be more than one "snatch/rapture/caught-up/harpazo"... (I disagree with that idea, and believe it pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [i.e. ALL those saved "in this present age [singular]"]--not to all other "saints" of all OTHER time periods, no. ["resurrection," yes. "...but each IN HIS OWN ORDER" when it comes to THAT Subject, tho])

 

[biker]

The measure of whether something happened or not is not that "we all know it." There are those who refuse the truth and do not know it then. There are those who are ignore, sometimes unwillingly or sometimes willingly. Jesus can speak of a future event that no one knows but once it is past, it can be known by those who seek the truth and have some means to find it out. Again, the measure of whether an event occured is not that we are all aware of it.

Something those who think the whole of Revelation is in the future do not think about is that when what they think will happen in ISrael happens, there is no assurance that it will be covered by the 6 o'clock news with live feed. IOW, if what is happening in the streets of Jerusalem are not known around the world today, when it is peaceful, certainly in a time when armies are surrounding it will not be a time when it will be known then.

WOW!
If it happened as you propose, you're forgetting that the Holy Spirit would have confirmed it. That is what the Holy Spirit does, confirms what Jesus said, did, has fulfilled. The Holy Spirit would not have allowed 2,000 years of ignorance if your version was fact.

 

[biker]

The measure of whether something happened or not is not that "we all know it." There are those who refuse the truth and do not know it then. There are those who are ignore, sometimes unwillingly or sometimes willingly. Jesus can speak of a future event that no one knows but once it is past, it can be known by those who seek the truth and have some means to find it out. Again, the measure of whether an event occured is not that we are all aware of it.

Something those who think the whole of Revelation is in the future do not think about is that when what they think will happen in ISrael happens, there is no assurance that it will be covered by the 6 o'clock news with live feed. IOW, if what is happening in the streets of Jerusalem are not known around the world today, when it is peaceful, certainly in a time when armies are surrounding it will not be a time when it will be known then.

And to be completely frank with you, I am literally baffled at what braze and ease you can ignore Polycarp's, Irenaeus, Tertullian, and many more Church Fathers accounts of John being placed in Patmos by Domitian around 94 AD, wrote Revelations while there, was released in 97 AD after Domitian's death, and served the rest of his life in Ephesus till he died around 100 AD.

You basically by denying their claim and ignoring their accounts are calling them LIARS.

The Church Fathers are responsible for many of our beliefs because they are 100% Biblical. But to you, they are lying about the Apostle John being in Patmos under Domitian.

Why should anyone accept your views when you don't even accept the Church Fathers views?

 

[Truth7t7]

The fairytale is that what you are presently living. On the other hand the reality is the Scripture.

Childish non response