The absurdity and heresy of Preterism

[DorothyMae]

What you said was

"Telling a group of churches who were about to go through terrible suffering but none of the communication is for them although when it starts in a few millenia it will go fast makes no sense and is borderline cruel." (Post #974)

But apparently is it not cruel to leave bereft of instruction those who would live "in a few millenia" and suffer horribly ... no need to remind them be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life (Rev 2:10), or to him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written (Rev 2:17), etc. etc.

No one suffers today what the members of those churches did all the while watching the fledging church was being desimated. This you forget.

In effect, you leave those who suffer abominable acts of violence for their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ without comfort as they endure suffering just because they live beyond the timeframe you allow the Word of God to apply.

I’ve never heard that the letters to the church are a comfort to these. Other verses? Yes. Revelation? No.

It's okay with you that God gives His Word to the believers who lived within the timeframe you allow ... but not okay that God gives His Word to the believers who live within the timeframe He allows.

I don’t think see evidence that the timeframe you insist upon is God’s timeframe.

So you've got proof that "the events in Revelation ... fits the descriptions of what happened at that time in Judea" but you don't provide the proof because you "find it so disgusting that [you] do not look into it if [you] don't have to do so"???

Proofs are pertaining to mathematics and alcohol. Faith is evidence based. There’s no proof Jesus rose from the dead.

I did not "snatch one verse out of many". I showed you that your insistence that what is written to the churches in Rev 2-3 benefits believers who live beyond the timeframe you allow.

I asked for the personal benefit you derived from one bit. Not everything applies to everyone.

What the chief priests did with the 30 pieces of silver was fulfillment of prophecy.

That was not the verse O gave you. You picked one you like better instead.

Have you not read the words of Jesus when He taught about the wheat and the tares? In the world, as well as in our churches, there are tares among the what. The tares are not true believers. The wheat is the true believers. Jesus said let both grow together.

So? What does that have to with this?

“Magistrates and churches may remove the openly wicked from their society; the outwardly good who are inwardly worthless they must leave; for the judging of hearts is beyond their sphere.” (Spurgeon)​

That’s not inspired scripture. But did your church, not some guy not in your fellowship do this?

What John wrote in the Revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ is not "past" for us.

What can I say? You think everything written there is equally for everyone,I guess, although I’m 100% sure if I presented you with some very unpleasant words from Revelation you’d deny they’re for you.

Please tell us what events revealed in the Book of Revelation have already taken place and what events are yet future.

The temple has been trampled on and destroyed.

Please provide the Scripture to which you refer. There are two uses of the word ἐγγὺς (engys) in Revelation.

Revelation 1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand (Greek ἐγγὺς).

Revelation 22:10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand (Greek ἐγγὺς).

And please note ... Revelation was written 1900+ years ago and we have yet to see the new heavens and new earth revealed in Rev 22.

The word Jesus chose is near. That you don’t like it doesn’t mean I have to justify HIS choice of words. You can believe HIM or deny HIM. He said NEAR to them.

So ... again ... I caution you in your insistence that Greek ἐγγὺς and/or Greek τάχει mean what you insist is the meaning.

Can’t fancy Greek footwork your way out of near?

The Scriptures open up when we turn our hearts to the Lord Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 3:

14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.

16 Nevertheless when it [the heart] shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.

17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

If this is automatic, how come we think quite differently?

 

[Nehemiah6]

If so, then addressing the twelve tribes would be counterproductive.

Not really. The twelve tribes -- Israel -- had been under the Law of Moses for about 1500 years, and God wanted them to hear certain truths which would enable them to see themselves as Christians rather than only Jews.

The book of Hebrews is devoted exclusively to presenting the New Covenant as being superior to the Old, and Christ as being far more excellent than Moses. These things needed to be taught and learned.

The same applies to the book of James which presents the Law of Liberty (which is the Law of Christ) as opposed to the Law of Moses.

 

[Kolistus]

1 | Galatians | 49 |
2 | James | 49 |
3 | 1 Thessalonians | 50 - 51 |
4 | 2 Thessalonians | 50 - 51 |
5 | 1 Corinthians | 54 |
6 | 2 Corinthians | 55 |
7 | Romans | 55 |
8 | Mark | 57 - 59 |
9 | Luke | 60 |
10 | Ephesians | 60 |
11 | Colossians | 60 |
12 | Philemon | 60 |
13 | Acts | 61 |
14 | Philippians | 61 |
15 | 1 Timothy | 62 |
16 | Titus | 62 |
17 | 2 Timothy | 63 |
18 | 1 Peter | 63 |
19 | 2 Peter | 63 - 64 |
20 | Matthew | 60's |
21 | Hebrews | 60's |
22 | Jude | 60's or 70's |
23 | John | Late 80's |
24 | 1 John | late 80's - early 90's |
25 | 2 John | late 80's - early 90's |
26 | 3 John | late 80's - early 90's |
27 | Revelation | late 80's - early 90's

Thanks for these. If these are correct, it shows Paul's epistles pre-date the gospels. Interesting, never thought of that.

 

[KJV1611]

"Church"

Spiritual Israel is the church but most people on this thread don't understand who the church is, they think it started at Pentecost.

 

[John146]

Actually, it does contradict scripture. Once a person has been resurrected in their immortal and glorified body, they cannot be killed and then brought back to be resurrected once again in their immortal and glorified body.



Lazarus died and was raised back to life in his mortal body, which died again. In further support of this, the scripture states that Moses died and God himself buried him. However, there is no scripture which states that God resurrected him. It would therefore be pure conjecture for us to assume that God had resurrected him. As I previously posted, both Enoch and Elijah had never experienced a physical death, which is why these two would be my pick.

I suppose that we will know for sure who the two witnesses will be when we get there.

Can you show scripture stating Moses had a resurrectEd glorified body? It doesn’t seem to me that he was. Seems to me, God is still waiting to resurrec Moses and bring him back.

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

 

[John146]

The same applies to the book of James which presents the Law of Liberty (which is the Law of Christ) as opposed to the Law of Moses.

Yes, to the entire nation of Israel, not Christian Jews only.

 

[John146]

If you also believed that the Body of Christ will be raptured before the Tribulation even begins, the idea of James writing only to the Jews will make perfect sense.

Hebrews to Revelations are bible doctrine meant for the Tribulation period, where only Israel is involved.

Us in the Body of Christ get the benefit of reading those doctrine ahead of time of course, which will benefit us, in the current grace dispensation.

Agree 100%

 

[Absolutely]

No lie whatsoever, John N. Darby & C.I. Scofield's dispensationalsm is the "Big Lie"!

No such thing as a pre-trib rapture, the Church will be present on this earth during the 3.5 year tribulation.

Conjecture.
No verses.
Invokes men.

 

[Absolutely]

Isaiah 26, Daniel 12 and Ezekiel 37 aren't LIKE a resurrection, they are THE RESURRECTION and they have nothing to do with Romans 11.


Other Gods have had dominion over Israel, those gods are dead, they will not live again, they will not be resurrected... because they were idols.

God has increased SPIRITUAL Israel. God has SPREAD it FAR, unto ALL of the earth... now including the Gentiles.

When Jesus came and chastened the Jews, the Godly Jews repented and came to Christ.

Israel was literally with child, she was pregnant with Jesus and she was in pain to deliver her Messiah. She gave birth to him, The Spirit of Israel (wind) which was to bring deliverance to the Jews and to the world, whereas the Jewish way had not never brought deliverance to anyone.

The Messiah is born and now crucified, Israel's dead men are resurrected, together with Christ and Isaiah's dead body. They rose and began singing praises to God for their deliverance.

Come those of you that have ACCEPTED MY SON. Enter into the chambers that God has prepared for you (wilderness for time, times and the dividing of times) UNTIL my wrath has been FULLY poured out on YOUR WICKED brothers and sister that CRUCIFIED MY SON.

These wicked antichrist brothers and sisters are the Jews that dispensationalism worships.

The day of the Lord is the time of Jacob's trouble, it happened when "Thy dead men rose". It happened when Jesus came and took the kingdom from the Ethnic Jews and gave it to ANOTHER NATION. God's wrath finally came to completion in 70 AD when the Jewish system of worship was totally annihilated in 70 AD.

Romans 11

Read it and learn you are on the wrong trail

 

[Absolutely]

Preterist friends @cv5 just helped me figure out exactly what the 1000 year reign is! It is the lifespan of the believer.

Dude
None of that works

 

[Guojing]

Agree 100%

That is why I am quite surprised to see people who are against this form of "rightly dividing the word of truth", also supporting the pre-tribulation rapture of the Body of Christ.

To me, it is pretty difficult to reject mid-acts dispensationalism but believe in the pre-trib rapture. They are together.

 

[Absolutely]

You continue to falsely claim the righteous won't be subject the Gods wrath?

Your using the standard false dispensationalism Revelation 3:10 argument.

Make a biblical point using verses.

 

[Absolutely]

I agree 100%

For this reason I believe Enoch/Elijah will be the future two witnesses of Revelation 11, Prophets returned.

It's gonna be a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

You answer conjecture with conjecture?

 

[John146]

That is why I am quite surprised to see people who are against this form of "rightly dividing the word of truth", also supporting the pre-tribulation rapture of the Body of Christ.

To me, it is pretty difficult to reject mid-acts dispensationalism but believe in the pre-trib rapture. They are together.

Probably, their entire lives they have listened to preachers and teachers that present these Jewish epistles as Christian doctrine. I would agree that there are some things in these books that line up with Paul, but when there are clear scriptures that contradict what the Lord gave Paul to teach the body of Christ, we need to be able to understand this instead of explain it away through sly exposition.

 

[Absolutely]

Sealed Christians!

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Sealed Christians!

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

Sealed Christians!

Revelation 7:2-4KJV
2 And I saw another angel ascending from the east, having the seal of the living God: and he cried with a loud voice to the four angels, to whom it was given to hurt the earth and the sea,
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.

Too broad.
God went to extraordinary lengths to paint them as jews via lineage.

The church is in heaven prior to the gt as Jesus depicted in mat 24

 

[Absolutely]

Probably, their entire lives they have listened to preachers and teachers that present these Jewish epistles as Christian doctrine. I would agree that there are some things in these books that line up with Paul, but when there are clear scriptures that contradict what the Lord gave Paul to teach the body of Christ, we need to be able to understand this instead of explain it away through sly exposition.

Oh good lord
That anemic paul only baloney even muddies up end times.

 

[Absolutely]

Where's that at? Jesus sits at the right hand of God as Prince and Savior. He is the King in waiting.

Acts 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Uh....you do realize the Pauline cult does not believe Jesus is king yet?

 

[Absolutely]

The Church represents the "Twelve Tribes" of Israel.

James 1:1KJV
1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

"Israel The Church", children of the promised seed.

Romans 9:6-8KJV
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Replacement theology.
Romans 11
Destroys it

 

[Absolutely]

Who wrote the book of James?

Possibly God the Holy Spirit, the same author of the entire inspired Holy Scripture

Amen

 

[John146]

Uh....you do realize the Pauline cult does not believe Jesus is king yet?

Absolutely! Jesus is seated at the right hand of God making intercession for us. Acts tells us He is a Prince and Saviour. He will be King when He returns.