The Alignment of New Evangelicals with Apostasy

[Jackson123]

Actually, this is happening already. They come here more than they go to their Catholic Church. But I have been very patient with them - listening to them with respect and not arguing. In return, they really listen to me and have those "ah ha" moments. More and more.

Good step.

To love is to tell the truth. If we know our beloved brother and sister on the way to brink and we not warn them it is ignorance and not love. It is hatred. unfortunately some people think if we said catholic is not inline with the bible, they think it is hatred. and some people think if we said Catholic is christian, it is love and tolerance.

To me to said catholic is christian, is hate mislead and ignorance, don't care other salvation.

 

[Jackson123]

Bennett:The Bible does not teach that all "tradition" is bad or evil or merely the "traditions of men." Rather, it teaches that there are indeed such bad and untrue traditions (see, e.g., Matt 15:2-6, Mk 7:8-13, Col 2:8), but that there are also true, apostolic traditions which are positively endorsed.

These apostolic traditions are - far from being contrary to Scripture - in total harmony with the Bible. Catholics believe that the true traditions must always be consistent with Scripture. In that sense, Scripture is its "final Judge," but not in the sense that Scripture somehow rules out or makes impossible all Tradition and Church authority. It does not at all. In fact, it asserts those things. Here are instances where the Bible espouses true tradition (RSV):

Luke 1:1-2 Inasmuch as many have undertaken to compile a narrative of the things which have been accomplished among us, just as they were delivered to us by those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses . . .

1 Corinthians 11:2 I commend you because you remember me in everything and maintain the traditions even as I have delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 . . . stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth, or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 . . . keep away from any brother who is living in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.


​

The Apostle Paul explicitly grants oral proclamation or teaching the same authority as written:

2 Timothy 1:13-14 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me . . . guard the truth which has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.

2 Timothy 2:2 And what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.


​

Most shocking of all (to a Protestant sola Scriptura mindset) is the fact - established by a simple biblical cross-referencing - that Tradition, Word of God, and the Gospel are regarded as essentially identical in Scripture. All are conceived as predominantly oral, and all are referred to as being delivered and received.

1 Corinthians 11:2 . . . maintain the traditions . . . . even as I have delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15 . . . hold to the traditions . . . . taught . . . by word of mouth or by letter.

2 Thessalonians 3:6 . . . the tradition that you received from us.

1 Corinthians 15:1 . . . the gospel, which you received . . .

Galatians 1:9 . . . the gospel . . . which you received.

1 Thessalonians 2:9 . . . we preached to you the gospel of God.

Acts 8:14 . . . Samaria had received the word of God . . .

1 Thessalonians 2:13 . . . you received the word of God, which you heard from us, . . .

2 Peter 2:21 . . . the holy commandment delivered to them.

Jude 3 . . . the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. [cf. Acts 2:42]

In St. Paul's two letters to the Thessalonians alone we see that three of the above terms are used interchangeably. Clearly then, tradition is not a dirty word in the Bible, particularly for St. Paul. If, on the other hand, one wants to maintain that it is, then gospel and word of God are also bad words! Thus, the commonly-asserted dichotomy between the gospel and tradition, or between the Bible and tradition is unbiblical itself and must be discarded by the truly biblically-minded person as (quite ironically) a corrupt tradition of men.

read more here

Richard Bennett is like the guy who breaks up with his girlfriend and spends the rest of his life bad-mouthing her.

Tradition to Love Jesus and love other is not evil. Tradition to pray to Mary is evil.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

"It [reason] is a guide that leads one astray; and philosophy can be compared to some powders that are so corrosive that, after they have eaten away the infected flesh of a wound, they then devour the living flesh, rot the bones, and penetrate to the very marrow. Philosophy at first refutes errors. But if it is not stopped at this point, it goes on to attack truths. And when it is left on its own, it goes so far that it no longer knows where it is and can find no stopping place."

"The antiquity and general acceptance of an opinion is not assurance of its truth"
Pierre Bayle

Richard Bennett is like the guy who breaks up with his girlfriend and spends the rest of his life bad-mouthing her.

Thanks for your opinion......

 

[crossnote]

Funny how easy RCC'ers will setup Protestant straw men, but when you turn on Catholics they cry 'Rome bashing'.

Back to the topic of the OP.
A great site to see some of the slippage regarding biblical inerrancy that some evangelicals are embracing...even ones like Robert Gundry..

F. David Farnell - Defending Inerrancy

 

[Hoffco]

To kepha, Please explain how you can justified the murder of a teen age girl who was kidnapped by the Vatican for sex parties, and the murder of millions of "born again" believer in the middle ages when the RCC ruled. You are associated with a very wicked church. You should leave it cold turkey. As I have left the wicked Fundamental protestant churches. Love to all, Hoffco

 

[royalscot]

how can anyone answer for someone elses actions. ie who are you going to answer to

even in religions and sects of christian belief.

you believe in jesus,and his actions and finished word. saved you.
so your actions or walk of faith ,after you believe, have nothing to do with , the actions that jesus did to save, you,

for example define the word good.

if all fall short, and no one can boast, of there actions. (because it is through jesus actions ,you first believed)

your religious taboos, in short, are they trying to teach some kind of manners,

ie even the disciples and paul say firstly it is by gods grace through jesus.

there actions after this, was to continue in, what god was telling them to do, in there life. you just read about it,

are you telling people that jesus conquered death.

how dos your action or my action add to this fact, if your a believer.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Funny how easy RCC'ers will setup Protestant straw men, but when you turn on Catholics they cry 'Rome bashing'.

Back to the topic of the OP.
A great site to see some of the slippage regarding biblical inerrancy that some evangelicals are embracing...even ones like Robert Gundry..

F. David Farnell - Defending Inerrancy

Thank you brother crossnote for posting the above link.
Wow, your spot on.....looks like they have tried to change the definition of inerrancy since 2010 to claim the bible is no longer the infallible word of God. That is almost inconceivable.
What are the odds that before long they will collectively and totally deny the validity of scripture as a whole? I'll be praying for the millions of souls in the flocks of these blind guides to come out of these congregations before it's to late. Looks like the church built with men's hands is about to wear out like a garment. Come soon Lord Jesus Christ!

 

[Joidevivre]

My comment:

There is very little left of biblical Christianity today

The entire movement has been riddled with the dogmas and traditions of men over the centuries

Today's professing church is very apostate across the board

My question is: If Jesus promised that He would build His church and the gates of hell would not prevail against it, then where is this church if so little of it is left now?

I think there is a church (maybe where you are not looking) and it is getting stronger and stronger. This body of Christians are worshiping more in spirit. Some are professing churches. But some of the churches that I visit are much stronger in the Spirit than when I grew up years ago. Much more passionate about the Lord. And I don't see a lot of traditions and dogmas. In fact, it is like "new wine".

 

[kepha]

To kepha, Please explain how you can justified the murder of a teen age girl who was kidnapped by the Vatican for sex parties,

The story is false. Evangelicals will devour misleading headlines as if it were gospel. From Wikipedia:
On Sunday, 3 July, Pope John Paul II, during the Angelus, appealed to those responsible for Emanuela Orlandi’s disappearance, making the hypothesis of kidnapping official for the first time. Two days later, the Orlandi family received the first of a number of anonymous phone calls. Emanuela was supposedly the prisoner of a terrorist group demanding the release of Mehmet Ali Ağca, the Turkish man who shot the Pope in Saint Peter's Square on 13 May 1981. No other information was given. In the following days, other calls were received, including one from a man identified as "The American", due to his apparent accent, who played a recording of Emanuela's voice over the phone. A few hours later, in another phone call to the Vatican, the same man suggested an exchange, of Orlandi for Alì Ağca. The anonymous interlocutor mentioned the "Mario" and "Pierluigi" of the earlier telephone calls, defining them as members of the organization.
On 6 July, a man with a young voice and an American accent informed ANSA news agency of the demand for an Orlandi-Ağca exchange, asking for the Pope’s participation within 20 days and indicating that a basket in the public square near the Parliament would contain proof that Orlandi was indeed in his hands. These were to have been photocopies of her Music School I.D., a receipt, and a note handwritten by the kidnapped girl. However, the Magistrate who was overseeing Orlandi’s case did not believe that there was a credible connection between the Orlandi abduction and the Pope's assailant.
On 8 July, a man with an alleged Middle Eastern accent phoned one of Orlandi's classmates saying Orlandi was in his hands and that they had 20 days to make the exchange with Alì Ağca. The man also asked for a direct telephone line with then-Vatican Secretary of State Agostino Casaroli. The line was installed on 18 July. A total of 16 telephone calls were made by "The American" from different public telephone booths..."

and the murder of millions of "born again" believer in the middle ages when the RCC ruled.

This is hate propaganda. There was no "murder of millions" and you have no scholarly documentation. Since you cannot produce any that should be proof enough the claim is false. Less than 2% of those tried in the Inquisition were executed by the state, not the Church, and the crime was treason. We can look at the Protestant Inquisition where there were no trials, and have a rock throwing contest.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3809983.stm < not a Catholic source.
The Real Inquisition | National Review Online (T. Madden is a professor of history)
Now show me some scholarly documentation about the "murder of millions", and I don't mean Jackkk Chickkk comics.

You are associated with a very wicked church.

My "wicked church" feeds, clothes, houses, educates, and provides medical care for more people than any institution on the planet, and I am proud to be in such a family.

 

[kepha]

Bottom line is, anyone who believes that story about the Vatican kidnapping a girl for sex parties is an idiot.

The myths about the Inquisition are coming to light with teams of scholars, both Catholic and non-Catholic pouring over the Vatican archives. Baptist seminaries no longer teach the myths they started at the turn of the century. The story of the Black Legend is also quite revealing.

A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand, (which is always suggested by anti-Catholics) and the Catholic Church is still here.

 

[Ugly]

Yeah! And anyone who believes some priests molest kids and the catholic church protects them is an idiot too! Because the catholic church would never allow that....

 

[Hoffco]

The wicked sins of the RCC are very verified. I have ,in my life time, heard personal stories from those with inside knowledge of the RCC . The present day news of the wicked homosexual camps in the Adirondacks ,where I live for 64, is enough to make me sick. A personal friend had to leave the priest hood study because the wide practice of homosexuality. The RCC view on communion is cannibalism. Jesus condemned eating of His flesh in Jh. 6:63 "The Spirit gives life,the flesh profits nothing, The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life" The Apostasy of the RCC church is very clear. AND the apostasy of the King James Bible only is very clear also. AND I love the Chick tracts, they are very well documented. LoveTo all, Hoffco

 

[JesusIsAll]

Yeah! And anyone who believes some priests molest kids and the catholic church protects them is an idiot too! Because the catholic church would never allow that....

1 Corinthians 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Romans 1:21-28 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, and changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature: And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient.

 

[Butch5]

Thank you brother crossnote for posting the above link.
Wow, your spot on.....looks like they have tried to change the definition of inerrancy since 2010 to claim the bible is no longer the infallible word of God. That is almost inconceivable.
What are the odds that before long they will collectively and totally deny the validity of scripture as a whole? I'll be praying for the millions of souls in the flocks of these blind guides to come out of these congregations before it's to late. Looks like the church built with men's hands is about to wear out like a garment. Come soon Lord Jesus Christ!

Don't be surprised, that kind of stuff has been going on since the 300's AD. Quite a bit of what is taught today as Christianity would be foreign to the very first Christians.

 

[GracethroughfaithinChrist]

Don't be surprised, that kind of stuff has been going on since the 300's AD. Quite a bit of what is taught today as Christianity would be foreign to the very first Christians.

Thanks for your input brother Butch5,
That's the whole point of the OP. To discuss the apostasy that is taking place right now and actively since 1960. The devil has been busy attempting to divide Christianity and attacking the Word of God since the beginning (“Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”) just like in the 4th century but there seems to be a big rush today to redefine inerrancy. This should be a big red flag to all believers of the gospel of Christ as it is an attempt to discredit the Word of God as being a solid authority of faith and attempts to make it obsolete. The roots of this apostasy started in the garden of Eden but there has been a big rush since 1960.
Once again thanks for your input brother Butch5

"New Evangelicalism, which willingly compromises with, and accommodates another gospel, has gained ground everywhere since about 1960. Since then the Evangelical world has changed beyond recognition. This is fully documented in Evangelicalism Divided by Iain Murray (Edinburgh: Banner of Truth, 2000)."

 

[crossnote]

Much of the Christian Church hangs on a balance and not extremes.

There is for example a balance between correct doctrine (orthodoxy) and a 'personal' relationship. The two should go hand in hand but what happens either the Church swings completely to orthodoxy at the expense of a relationship (1600's) or to the other extreme of pietism (personal relationship) 1700's at the expense of sound doctrine.

Both are needed for a healthy Church...sound doctrine and a living relationship with Jesus and each other.

Today, subjectivism/personal relationship in our post modern culture seems to rule the day, and the problem with this type of imbalance is that the church although active in 'relationship' is being hammered with false teaching.

"'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. (Rev 2:2-4)


see how both are emphasized?

 

[ThomistColin]

The wicked sins of the RCC are very verified. I have ,in my life time, heard personal stories from those with inside knowledge of the RCC . The present day news of the wicked homosexual camps in the Adirondacks ,where I live for 64, is enough to make me sick. A personal friend had to leave the priest hood study because the wide practice of homosexuality. The RCC view on communion is cannibalism. Jesus condemned eating of His flesh in Jh. 6:63 "The Spirit gives life,the flesh profits nothing, The words that I speak to you are spirit, and they are life" The Apostasy of the RCC church is very clear. AND the apostasy of the King James Bible only is very clear also. AND I love the Chick tracts, they are very well documented. LoveTo all, Hoffco

Really? Well documented? Jack Chick claimed the Jesuits founded Islam, even though Islam was founded in the 700s and the Jesuits in the 1500s. That's some amazing time travel.

As for your sickening insinuations, they belong more to the Pharisees attacks upon Christ than upright seeking of truth.

You want to throw mud because you believe God has been insulted. My friend, God is far bigger than you give Him credit for.

I am amazed constantly that all that keeps the sins of the Reformation on both sides from bubbling up are US law. Would you burn us at the stake and cheer as John Calvin did? Because I would not. This hatred, this seething hatred will lead only down one singular path. Murder and mayhem. And we know who the father of those things is...

 

[ThomistColin]

Much of the Christian Church hangs on a balance and not extremes.

There is for example a balance between correct doctrine (orthodoxy) and a 'personal' relationship. The two should go hand in hand but what happens either the Church swings completely to orthodoxy at the expense of a relationship (1600's) or to the other extreme of pietism (personal relationship) 1700's at the expense of sound doctrine.

Both are needed for a healthy Church...sound doctrine and a living relationship with Jesus and each other.

Today, subjectivism/personal relationship in our post modern culture seems to rule the day, and the problem with this type of imbalance is that the church although active in 'relationship' is being hammered with false teaching.

"'I know your works, your toil and your patient endurance, and how you cannot bear with those who are evil, but have tested those who call themselves apostles and are not, and found them to be false. I know you are enduring patiently and bearing up for my name's sake, and you have not grown weary. But I have this against you, that you have abandoned the love you had at first. (Rev 2:2-4)


see how both are emphasized?

One thing I have always respected you with is that while we may disagree, you have always disagreed with a spirit of Love and Gentle Kindness. Even when you say things that I do not agree with, it is obvious that you are not trying to fan the flames, but instead to lay out the facts of your arguments. Please do not fall in line with those who would allow hate to enter this debate. There are many sins that have been committed in the name of Christ on both sides. Let us not start defending those actions. Instead, let us come under Christ, for even if you view me as your enemy, I know that you will obey the Lord in His call to Love your enemies. Though, I do not view you as an enemy of the Catholic Church, just a well informed doubter.

 

[crossnote]

One thing I have always respected you with is that while we may disagree, you have always disagreed with a spirit of Love and Gentle Kindness. Even when you say things that I do not agree with, it is obvious that you are not trying to fan the flames, but instead to lay out the facts of your arguments. Please do not fall in line with those who would allow hate to enter this debate. There are many sins that have been committed in the name of Christ on both sides. Let us not start defending those actions. Instead, let us come under Christ, for even if you view me as your enemy, I know that you will obey the Lord in His call to Love your enemies. Though, I do not view you as an enemy of the Catholic Church, just a well informed doubter.

Colin, I had no particular body of believers in mind when I posted my last.
You an enemy? Maybe some of Rome's doctrines and practices but not any Catholic person is my enemy.

 

[TaylorTG]

It has to feel good, give you what Adrian Rogers called "goosebumps and liver shivers." If you don't feel a strong need to scratch each ear after a sermon, it can't be good. Above all, always avoid anybody who talks about sin, hell or other yukky things you know Jesus was too nice to upset people with. Remember, we're all just sinners saved by grace, who are we to judge anything at all, because the good book says to have no judgment, a penny saved is a penny earned, and we must love our Muslim brothers and sisters who worship the same, bisexual god.

You said that the God of Abraham is bisexual. >_> Sheesh, he doesn't have sexual attractions.