The Opening Ceremony of the Olympics
Sure looks like Sodom and Gomorrah.
Sure looks like Sodom and Gomorrah.
The Apostasy is on Full Display for the Whole World to See
- Thread starter ZNP
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Sure does. One wonders when the 3 Visitors will show up to view it all personally. We know this filth is already here in the US as well. This November will be some level of a stand against it, or an acceptance and spread of it. Christians should be considering the blasphemy. I don't know how many will do so.
Hi @ZNP
While I agree that the practices of the lost should be personally disgusting to us because we hold to a different worldview than they do. Paul is pretty clear that we aren't to judge those who are not a part of us. So, I believe that God's word has given us fair warning of how the world is going to go so that we can be prepared to see these things. But that preparation is not so that we can condemn and judge, but rather so that we can 1, see that God's word is true. When Paul writes to the Roman believers all the ways that wickedness and ungodliness will overrun the earth, we can now stand back and watch and see that, yes, God's word has told us the truth in this matter. When Jesus said that the love of most will grow cold, we can stand back and see that happening before our very eyes and ears. 2, know that our work to tell others about Jesus is still greatly necessary.
You see, man can't fix his sin problem on his own, which sadly is something that the evangelical body of many fellowships don't seem to understand. They seem to believe that if they can just make people live according to God's law, then they are fixing someone. According to the Scriptures, that isn't the case. They pretty clearly declare that by observance of the law, shall no flesh be saved. It is only through a life transforming personal relationship with God through Jesus that anyone will find their name written in the Lamb's book of life.
Jesus' command to us, as I understand it, is that while we clearly can see that the world is going exactly the way that God's word tells us that it will be going, our duty is to tell each one, with whom we have opportunity, the truth of who Jesus is. According to the Scriptures, rather than condemnation we are to always be prepared to tell those WHO ASK of the hope that we have. If they believe that, then baptize them. AFTER they have believed and been baptized, THEN we are to teach them all that he has commanded us.
Watch the world go to hell, but you be about telling everyone that you can of the love of God that He has shown us through the sacrifice of His Son. If they believe that, then baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Then sit down with them and pore over the Scriptures teaching them all that Jesus commanded those who would follow after him. All the rest are just lost, just as you and I once were.
Condemnation for living a wicked life is not the way that God's word shows that we are going to win people to His kingdom. It only makes us feel superior to them and them feel disgusted with how "those christians are always condemning us for not following a law that I neither know anything about nor anything about the God of which they speak. How can the believe upon the one they have not heard unless someone tells them the truth. The wonderful teacher Billy Graham was perhaps best at doing this. He would preach of the sin of the world, but never made it personal, just general. Then he would introduce the solution, not condemnation, but Jesus.
Friend, believers are not going to conquer this world. That seems to be a clear teaching of the Scriptures. Today, and even in Israel from the time that God brought them up out of Egypt on Eagle's wings, the true servants of God have always been only a remnant.
God bless you,
Ted
While I agree that the practices of the lost should be personally disgusting to us because we hold to a different worldview than they do. Paul is pretty clear that we aren't to judge those who are not a part of us. So, I believe that God's word has given us fair warning of how the world is going to go so that we can be prepared to see these things. But that preparation is not so that we can condemn and judge, but rather so that we can 1, see that God's word is true. When Paul writes to the Roman believers all the ways that wickedness and ungodliness will overrun the earth, we can now stand back and watch and see that, yes, God's word has told us the truth in this matter. When Jesus said that the love of most will grow cold, we can stand back and see that happening before our very eyes and ears. 2, know that our work to tell others about Jesus is still greatly necessary.
You see, man can't fix his sin problem on his own, which sadly is something that the evangelical body of many fellowships don't seem to understand. They seem to believe that if they can just make people live according to God's law, then they are fixing someone. According to the Scriptures, that isn't the case. They pretty clearly declare that by observance of the law, shall no flesh be saved. It is only through a life transforming personal relationship with God through Jesus that anyone will find their name written in the Lamb's book of life.
Jesus' command to us, as I understand it, is that while we clearly can see that the world is going exactly the way that God's word tells us that it will be going, our duty is to tell each one, with whom we have opportunity, the truth of who Jesus is. According to the Scriptures, rather than condemnation we are to always be prepared to tell those WHO ASK of the hope that we have. If they believe that, then baptize them. AFTER they have believed and been baptized, THEN we are to teach them all that he has commanded us.
Watch the world go to hell, but you be about telling everyone that you can of the love of God that He has shown us through the sacrifice of His Son. If they believe that, then baptize them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Then sit down with them and pore over the Scriptures teaching them all that Jesus commanded those who would follow after him. All the rest are just lost, just as you and I once were.
Condemnation for living a wicked life is not the way that God's word shows that we are going to win people to His kingdom. It only makes us feel superior to them and them feel disgusted with how "those christians are always condemning us for not following a law that I neither know anything about nor anything about the God of which they speak. How can the believe upon the one they have not heard unless someone tells them the truth. The wonderful teacher Billy Graham was perhaps best at doing this. He would preach of the sin of the world, but never made it personal, just general. Then he would introduce the solution, not condemnation, but Jesus.
Friend, believers are not going to conquer this world. That seems to be a clear teaching of the Scriptures. Today, and even in Israel from the time that God brought them up out of Egypt on Eagle's wings, the true servants of God have always been only a remnant.
God bless you,
Ted
They that despise me shall be lightly esteemed
17 But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ; 18 How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts. 19 These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.
Nope. They mocked the Last Supper. The Olympics is supposed to be an event where all the people of the world can come together and that would include those who worship Jesus as Lord. So yes, the Lord will hold them in derision. Yes, as they have done it will be done to them, they will be mocked, ridiculed, and lightly esteemed. The Lord said in Samuel those who disrespect Him will be disrespected.
4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. 5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure. 6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion.
1 Samuel 2:30 Wherefore the Lord God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me forever: but now the Lord saith, Be it far from me; for them that honor me I will honor, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.
Some observations:
- Sin is personally disgusting to us because it's disgusting to God. Our world view goes back to God's world view. Jesus hated lawlessness and contextually this is a basis for His high exaltation.
- Paul in 1Cor5-6 is not saying that he doesn't in effect judge the world's sin, but that it is God's position to do so. But he goes on to speak of our judging things of this life and that the holy ones will judge the world and angels. In effect Paul is saying we ought to be the best judges in the world, and the condition of our congregations should reflect this, which correlates well to Jesus instructing to first remove the plank from our own eye, and to judge with righteous judgment.
- In our day, are we to refuse jury duty on religious grounds?
- In our day, are we to ignore voting and legislation on similar religious grounds?
- Are we to ignore and walk around a criminal battering a neighbor?
- We judge constantly and we should be good at it.
- The identifier of a mature Christian is having faculties well-exercised in judging both good and bad/evil (Heb5).
- Jesus is not someone who ignored evil. He spoke against it and died to ultimately end it. There's much to tell about Jesus.
- IMO you are on the one hand correct that many do not properly understand the cure for sin, while on the other hand you're conflating this with the benefit of Law in restraining sin on the earth. The outbreak of blatant and deeply depraved degeneracy is the breakdown of moral standards that have been substantially based upon Biblical Law and a culture that did not put up with such things not too long ago.
- What will be interesting when we stand before our Lord is whether He will say, 'good job for doing nothing about evil' or 'why did you not do what was available to you to participate in curbing and restraining evil'? IOW, maybe our failures are baked into where things in the world go. But some systems of eschatology do not see and do disagree with this concept of ultimate failure.
- Love for neighbor in Israel was to rebuke a neighbor who was out of line.
S
Susanna
Guest
Hi @ZNP
Yes, and I'm guessing in your mind that's a really, really bad sin and not as light and of no consequence as their just not believing in the one whom He has sent.
Friend, the lost are lost because they don't believe. They live lives that are lost because they don't believe. They do things that are abhorrent to God because they don't believe.
But what God's word tells us to do is not to condemn them and rage about their particular and individual sin, but to tell them about Jesus. I mean this is nowhere more clear than in Paul's testimony to the 'church'. He wrote:
I wrote to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people—not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters. In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing to you that you must not associate with anyone who claims to be a brother or sister but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or slanderer, a drunkard or swindler. Do not even eat with such people. What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside. “Expel the wicked person from among you.”
Do you see it, there at the end? We are to expel the wicked person from among the fellowship. Not those who are of the world.
Nope. I'm convicted that such a statement will never be used against His children. I rather imagine He'll say to us why did you go out and turn all the sinners away from Me with all of your condemnation and not tell them about My Son? Why didn't you follow my example and bring them to my Son, where after finding and knowing him, the Holy Spirit will take over the task for which he was assigned. He's the one I sent to convict of sin and righteousness in the world. Not you!
Question: Do you believe that if you were to stop someone from doing some sinful act against God, that's going to save them? Do you believe that your railing against this great apostasy you are watching in your clip that you're going to bring them to God's salvation? Do you believe that if you approach a woman about to walk into an abortion clinic and tell her that what she is doing is wrong in God's sight, and she decides not to go through with it, that she's then saved? Do you further believe that if that woman does go ahead with the abortion that she will then never be saved? Friend, sinners sin. Even God's children are subject to sin in their lives from time to time
God's plan is that His children tell others about the salvation afforded them through the sacrifice of Jesus. That if they accept and believe that, that person should then be baptized. After that person has placed their faith in Jesus and been baptized, then Jesus tells us to teach them all that he has commanded them on how they should live now as a child of the one true and living God.
I honestly have a hard time understanding why modern day christians don't see the historical record in this idea that there's going to be some great and godly nation upon the face of the earth because God's children made them all obey the law. God already did that!!!!! He raised up a nation of people and gave them a law. Within days they broke the biggest sin against God that they could possibly have broken. They melted down a bunch of gold and jewelry and made themselves a golden calf to go before them and be their God. God had told them to not make for themselves any kind of idol and they went right out and did it! Then, as we continue from there reading about the history of Israel, we find that God was near constantly rebuking them for their sinfulness towards His law.
Do you really believe in your heart that you're going to be more successful than God in turning a nation of people to live according to His law?
Try doing it the way Jesus said. Tell everyone that you have influence with about Jesus. That all of mankind is full of sin, but that Jesus offers each one of us, individually, a way to eternal life. Explain to them how the prophecies of the Scriptures are able to prove that there is a being that does know the end from the beginning. Explain to them that God's plan is that for all of those who will turn to Him and understand and accept the sacrifice of His Son's blood for everyone's sin who will believe it, can have eternal life with Him. An eternal life that the Scriptures proclaim is a good and pleasing life with no tears or pain or sorrows. A life of provision for all that we need to live and to love and to honor the God and Creator who made this realm of existence in which we live.
Speak to them of these things and then, if they are willing to believe and accept it, just as with Phillip and Eunich, find some water and baptize them. Then spend time with them teaching them all that Jesus has commanded those who would follow after him and allow the promised Holy Spirit to do his job. That of convicting them, now that they have accepted the truth of Jesus and been baptized into the faith, of all sin and righteousness in their individual life.
That seems to be the plan as laid out in Scripture.
But I believe the Scriptures are clear that as we move closer to the last day, the world is going to be following their sinful ways to such a degree that they will even be inventing more ways to do evil. That's exactly what we're seeing in the world today. And yet, Paul doesn't close out that list of sinfulness in the world with, "So you believers in Jesus go out and make the world obey God's law." So no. I don't think that the question you posit that God might ask is going to be on God's check list. He just wants His children, as best as they are able, to show mercy and grace and kindness to all, while telling them about Jesus.
Yet your conviction or belief is not the basis for truth.
Knowing many will not believe, while we're in the world we're involved in learning and knowing how to judge both good and evil. If we're not so learning, then we cannot even judge in our congregations, which is what Paul was speaking against.
In a country like the US, at least as is has been, we citizens of the US and of Heaven are participating in a form of human government on this earth in which our witness of salt and light can be seen and heard in what we stand for and who we stand for. The mature form of this is to be able to witness as to how God would have men lead as servants according to His standards while also understanding that He has delegated the carrying of the sword to human government to restrain evil. And all of this can be done while witnessing to all that Jesus Christ is the only way to salvation from sin/lawlessness for those who will believe in Him and obey Him.
When I first read your posts, my initial thought is that you are simply of the mind that all Christians are here to do is evangelize and let the world degenerate at its maximum pace.
Are you a US citizen? Do you vote?
Just to clarify gave a like because I liked Tatum's commentary, definitely don't like what these wicked people did. His analogy to poking the bear is spot on. As such zero pity whatsoever if anything unfortunate befalls Paris, absolutely zero pity, they brought it on themselves.
Hi @studier
Oh, absolutely agree!! God's word is the arbiter of truth.
Can you show me where, what you seem to be writing as your conviction of what the Scriptures intend on the matter, is in the Scriptures?
After all, I agree that none of us and what we might believe on a matter is necessarily the basis for truth. Where do the Scriptures say or allude that 'we citizens of the US and Heaven (should be) participating in a form of human government on this earth in which our witness' has anything to do with the operation of governance of men? Where do you find support that 'the mature form of this is to be able to witness as to how God would have men lead as servants according to His standards'?
Just curious.
This is apples and oranges. Of course these people are not claiming to be a brother or sister. They are sexually immoral, idolaters, slanders. Except they were portraying themselves as the Lord's last supper. So yes, these would be exactly the ones that Paul said "do not even eat with such people".
This is the thing, it is not our business to judge those outside the church, but that is why they are mocking the Lord and putting on such a lewd disgraceful show, no one is paying any attention to them so they mock Jesus just to get a rise and then accuse us of "judging them".
So the final charge is to "expel the wicked person from among you". Obviously Christians are not going to expel them from the Olympics so then it is the Christians who need to leave. Just like Lot left.
Answer: I believe if I stopped someone who was doing a sinful act against God that would seriously harm another person on the spot, then I would save that person from harm and that God would honor this and would have had me there and assisted me to do so.
From there you seem to be confusing me with someone else. And again, you're conflating one salvation with another. The word salvation in our Text is used contextually ranging from saving someone from harm, from enemies, etc., up to eternal salvation you're focusing on. So, your rhetorical questions are out of place. I have no confusion on temporal vs. eternal salvation.
Yet God has gifted His children to be involved in [possibly] every aspect of society, including law, law enforcement, politics, etc., etc. and to live their life and occupations as unto the Lord and to be salt and light in the world. Maybe this is so they can witness in every area of society.
Maybe you're misunderstanding that this is not the intention of some and that you're therefore misjudging what they're doing.
This isn't the issue and your rhetoric is not appreciated. Civil and criminal law is meant to maintain some semblance of order in a nation. It is a restraint of evil. God having ministers on the earth with delegated power of the sword meant to praise good and fear doing evil was taught by Paul who legally appealed charges against him. Believers will [slowly] be conformed to obeying God. The world has other restraints from God.
That would be the Jesus who called out the religious crowd, called them vipers, turned over their money tables, and debated with them about law and righteousness, correct?
That seems to be a narrow focus of all of what Scripture says. And knowing many will not believe, in this world we are left with dealing with evil. Being silent about it and not participating in curbing it in righteous ways, seems unbiblical to many of us.
Thankfully there is only so far they can go with evil. There are some interesting teachings from Scripture that in effect say, 'As goes the Church, so goes the nation.' IOW the spread of evil can have to do with the condition of the Church.
Do you think there are any crimes worthy of capital punishment?
If there is no expectation of making the world obey God's Law as you allege is what some want t accomplish, do you have any judgment of what constitutes good and evil according to God's Righteousness and if asked your opinion, would you not explain it and how it speaks of your Righteous God and Savior who loved Righteousness and hated lawlessness?
You might want to look at Acts10:35 and see what God's attitude is toward unbelieving people who are working righteousness to the degree they understand it. Consider who it was that endowed men with consciences and put His law to work in their hearts. And consider Rom13 and how God has ministers/servants on this earth with the delegated power of the sword to deal with evil.
There is a lot more taking place on this earth than boiling it down to how you see it. Not everybody in the Body of Christ has the same gift or function.
It has been for some time. The US was typically referred to as the sleeping bear or lion that shouldn't be kicked. It may be waking up a bit. I guess we'll see...
I think Tatum is meaning God rather than the US. Basically what he is saying is that the wicked like to provoke God, they know full well what they are doing is evil, and then when God smites them down then they play the fake victim card. They didn't have to provoke the Lord, but they went out of their way to do it.
Jesus saw sin and explained how it goes against the principles of God. Yes, He did it without Judging. But in speaking the truth He brought judgement upon those that heard. These people need to know they are as God put it, an ABOMINATION unto Him because they have rejected God and God gave them over to a reprobate mind.
My question, why are you protecting them when God has already given them over to their evil ways?
We need to be addressing them without condemnation even though the Holy Word of God will bring condemnation to them.
What you are saying without presenting Scripture is what I'm responding to in kind. What we re both saying is gleaned from many Scriptures and a general picture of how we see them to be summarized. If you want to start presenting individual Scriptures, I'll follow suit or comment on what you present.
The 1Cor5-6 Scripture that you alluded to is what I initially responded to and It's still being alluded to by @ZNP. There is a context to this, which is the purity of the congregation. Paul's position in the Body of Christ is to evangelize primarily the nations to faith-obedience on behalf of Christ (Rom1 & 16) and to establish and help mature congregations. His job is not to be out judging the world which God has done and is doing. The command to not associate in 1Cor5-6 is to not associate with sinful Christians.
And God is not only judging eternally, He is judging temporally and has servants on the earth in human governments with the delegated power of the sword. Paul is not one of them.
Are we going to tell a Christian who is a civil or criminal court judge that he or she is not to judge the unbeliever for their sins - aka lawlessness - aka crimes because the crime is based upon God's standard?
As for the Olympics ceremony, are we truly to sit here and be ambivalent about it? They just need the Gospel? I'd say just about everybody has an opinion about it and that opinion is a judgment. I can look not only at OC Law, but at the sins lists in the NC and see that behavior is sinful and degenerate. And I can read Paul and how he instructs us that all Scripture is God breathed and beneficial for teaching, for rebuke, for correction, for instruction in righteousness. How can I not read this and then note that sinful behavior is sinful behavior and judge accordingly? If I have any association with such people because we are all in the world, am I supposed to think nothing, say nothing, tell them they need Christ so they can overcome sin without judging that they are in sin? Am I supposed to allow kids to be exposed to this or exposed to it and be explaining to them that it's evil (thereby judging it to be evil because God judges it to be evil)? Am I supposed to ignore a legislator who might ask my opinion about it or am I supposed to not vote for someone who I think may legislate as he thinks God would have him legislate?
This is a bigger topic than the evangelism only thinkers want to narrow it down to.
I heard a Near Death Experience testimony from a gang member who went to hell. He came back and considered all these Christians claiming to be so loving to be the most hateful people on earth. He said "you knew about hell and never told the rest of us?"
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 18:19 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Imagine thinking you know the Bible so well and yet you don't warn people of hell.
Matthew 5:22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.
Matthew 5:29 And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 5:30 And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Matthew 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Matthew 11:23 And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day.
Matthew 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 18:19 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
Matthew 23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
Matthew 23:33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Imagine thinking you know the Bible so well and yet you don't warn people of hell.
Thanks. Good point. I mentioned earlier that I wonder if/when the "three men" might show up as they did at Sodom and Gomorrah.
The reason I went into the US is that we are at an inflection point here where what took place at the Olympics is in line with much of what we see going on here. And just as God ultimately responds to being kicked, so has the US been described after this fashion. At this point it's coming down to whether or not US Christians and even unbelieving moralists are going to continue to be kicked by these immoral to the extreme people who have no limits to pushing themselves on others including children. So far it's just being mainly contained to the elections arena with a few exceptions.
Which would mean you have an understanding of Scripture that enables you to make such a judgment.
S