The Ark of the Covenant Debate

[Watchman22]

There’s a real difference between being a “doubting Thomas” and being someone who simply refuses to accept a claim without testing it. Thomas wasn’t condemned for asking for evidence; Jesus met him where he was and then called him to a deeper trust. In that sense, I’m not a doubting Thomas — I don’t “doubt” Christ, His resurrection, or the reliability of Scripture — but I do practice the same kind of careful examination that Thomas needed. The New Testament repeatedly commands believers to “test all things” and “examine everything carefully.” Your instructor’s long ministry and cautious nature fit that biblical pattern: God often uses people who refuse to accept easy answers. So while I don’t “doubt” the core truths of the faith, I do evaluate extraordinary claims — including archaeological ones — with the same sober discernment Scripture teaches. Faith is never threatened by truth; it is strengthened by it. On a personal note, it is good to see we can still conversate.

So is there an answer in there?

I'm not knocking the doubting Thomas. My instructor had a library that would rival some colleges. And after he read and gathered everything he could, he amassed the largest collection of biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican. Being a doubting Thomas is one of the best fruits of his teachings.

But, he never made his flock feel as if he thought everyone he talked to should be a doubting Thomas themselves. He owned it and was blessed in it.

Being a Doubting Thomas can be a limitless gift if wielded correctly.

 

[OMC]

So is there an answer in there?

I'm not knocking the doubting Thomas. My instructor had a library that would rival some colleges. And after he read and gathered everything he could, he amassed the largest collection of biblical manuscripts in private hands behind the Vatican. Being a doubting Thomas is one of the best fruits of his teachings.

But, he never made his flock feel as if he thought everyone he talked to should be a doubting Thomas themselves. He owned it and was blessed in it.

Being a Doubting Thomas can be a limitless gift if wielded correctly.

I don’t “doubt” Christ, His resurrection, or the reliability of Scripture — but I do practice the same kind of careful examination that Thomas needed. That's my answer.

 

[Watchman22]

I don’t “doubt” Christ, His resurrection, or the reliability of Scripture — but I do practice the same kind of careful examination that Thomas needed. That's my answer.

I was insinuating you doubt Christ, the resurrection, or the reliability of scripture.

My instructor did start at that bottom point though. By the time he was satisfied, he claimed he could prove everything in scripture, except the resurrection.

 

[OMC]

My instructor did start at that bottom point though. By the time he was satisfied, he claimed he could prove everything in scripture, except the resurrection

If your instructor reached a point where he believed he could prove everything in Scripture except the resurrection, then he stopped precisely where Scripture says the entire faith stands or falls. Paul declares that “if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain” (1 Cor. 15:17), and that the resurrection is the very event by which God “declared Him to be the Son of God with power” (Rom. 1:4). The apostles did not treat the resurrection as an optional doctrine but as the foundation of Christian proclamation (Acts 2:32; 3:15; 4:33). To fail to affirm it is to fail to affirm the Gospel itself. Whatever “proofs” he believed he had, Scripture does not allow a Christianity where the resurrection is uncertain. Without it, there is no justification, no victory over death, no hope, and no Gospel. The resurrection is not the last piece—it is the first pillar.

 

[Watchman22]

If your instructor reached a point where he believed he could prove everything in Scripture except the resurrection, then he stopped precisely where Scripture says the entire faith stands or falls. Paul declares that “if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain” (1 Cor. 15:17), and that the resurrection is the very event by which God “declared Him to be the Son of God with power” (Rom. 1:4). The apostles did not treat the resurrection as an optional doctrine but as the foundation of Christian proclamation (Acts 2:32; 3:15; 4:33). To fail to affirm it is to fail to affirm the Gospel itself. Whatever “proofs” he believed he had, Scripture does not allow a Christianity where the resurrection is uncertain. Without it, there is no justification, no victory over death, no hope, and no Gospel. The resurrection is not the last piece—it is the first pillar.

He has a teaching on the resurrection where he looked at it from the perspective of laying out all the evidence, like in a courtroom case. When he was done providing all his evidence, it was as close to proving it as one can get.

 

[Watchman22]

If your instructor reached a point where he believed he could prove everything in Scripture except the resurrection, then he stopped precisely where Scripture says the entire faith stands or falls. Paul declares that “if Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain” (1 Cor. 15:17), and that the resurrection is the very event by which God “declared Him to be the Son of God with power” (Rom. 1:4). The apostles did not treat the resurrection as an optional doctrine but as the foundation of Christian proclamation (Acts 2:32; 3:15; 4:33). To fail to affirm it is to fail to affirm the Gospel itself. Whatever “proofs” he believed he had, Scripture does not allow a Christianity where the resurrection is uncertain. Without it, there is no justification, no victory over death, no hope, and no Gospel. The resurrection is not the last piece—it is the first pillar.

Can I ask you another unrelated question?

What day of the week do you understand Jesus died and was buried?

 

[OMC]

He has a teaching on the resurrection where he looked at it from the perspective of laying out all the evidence, like in a courtroom case. When he was done providing all his evidence, it was as close to proving it as one can get.

taking into account all known physical evidence to date, would affirm that treating the resurrection like a courtroom case is entirely appropriate. The historical record contains multiple independent eyewitness claims, early creedal testimony, the empty tomb, the sudden transformation of the disciples, and the explosive rise of the early church—all of which stand as real-world data points that demand explanation. When someone lays out that evidence cumulatively, the resurrection emerges not as a myth or wishful thinking but as the single explanation that best fits the physical, historical, and behavioral facts. So when your instructor finished presenting his case and found the resurrection “as close to proven as one can get,” that conclusion aligns with the way Christians have always approached it: faith rooted in a real event that left real evidence in history

 

[OMC]

What day of the week do you understand Jesus died and was buried?

According to scripture and using the solar‑day reckoning (sunset‑to‑sunset for Jewish time; midnight‑to‑midnight for modern civil time), Jesus died and was buried on Friday, the day Scripture repeatedly calls “the Preparation,” the day before the Sabbath. The Gospels state plainly that Jesus was crucified and died on the Preparation Day (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:31), and His burial had to be completed before sundown, when the Sabbath began. Under solar‑calendar language, this places His death and burial on Friday afternoon, His body in the tomb through Saturday, and His resurrection early Sunday morning, “the first day of the week.” This Friday‑burial sequence is the only one that fits the explicit time markers given in the biblical text

 

[Watchman22]

According to scripture and using the solar‑day reckoning (sunset‑to‑sunset for Jewish time; midnight‑to‑midnight for modern civil time), Jesus died and was buried on Friday, the day Scripture repeatedly calls “the Preparation,” the day before the Sabbath. The Gospels state plainly that Jesus was crucified and died on the Preparation Day (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:31), and His burial had to be completed before sundown, when the Sabbath began. Under solar‑calendar language, this places His death and burial on Friday afternoon, His body in the tomb through Saturday, and His resurrection early Sunday morning, “the first day of the week.” This Friday‑burial sequence is the only one that fits the explicit time markers given in the biblical text

Thanks

 

[Watchman22]

According to scripture and using the solar‑day reckoning (sunset‑to‑sunset for Jewish time; midnight‑to‑midnight for modern civil time), Jesus died and was buried on Friday, the day Scripture repeatedly calls “the Preparation,” the day before the Sabbath. The Gospels state plainly that Jesus was crucified and died on the Preparation Day (Mark 15:42; Luke 23:54; John 19:31), and His burial had to be completed before sundown, when the Sabbath began. Under solar‑calendar language, this places His death and burial on Friday afternoon, His body in the tomb through Saturday, and His resurrection early Sunday morning, “the first day of the week.” This Friday‑burial sequence is the only one that fits the explicit time markers given in the biblical text

Sorry for pressing you omc. But is this answer from you without AI? Or is this what you copied from AI?

 

[OMC]

Sorry for pressing you omc. But is this answer from you without AI? Or is this what you copied from AI?

You keep bringing that up. Where is this AI you speak of? One of the chat window buttons?

 

[Watchman22]

You keep bringing that up. Where is this AI you speak of? One of the chat window buttons?

Like chat gbt? AI?

 

[OMC]

Like chat gbt? AI?

Son, I wouldn't know how to use it. My wife got me on here so i can share my faith with the world. Which is all this old man can do these days. I have been a Bible teacher for many years. But never got the knack for the computer thing. I'm of the "paper" gen.

 

[Watchman22]

You keep bringing that up. Where is this AI you speak of? One of the chat window buttons?

Artificial intelligence.
Where people go to get answers, copy and paste?

 

[OMC]

Artificial intelligence.
Where people go to get answers, copy and paste?

However, I do use a program called E-Sword that i have my books displayed for quick reference

 

[OMC]

Artificial intelligence.
Where people go to get answers, copy and paste?

Does it work? I mean, Is it accurate?

 

[God-fearing]

Right. Christ fulfills the Law, the Mosaic ordinances are no longer binding, and the Ark of the Covenant plays no role in New Testament salvation. But several parts of your explanation need correction because Scripture gives clearer boundaries about, what the Law was, what Christ fulfilled, what “ordinances” in Colossians 2 actually refer to, what happened to the Ark, and what the veil-rending means.
Christ removed the record of our guilt and the ceremonial ordinances that pointed to Him, because they were shadows, not the substance.
This matches:
Colossians 2:16–17 — Sabbaths, new moons, feast days = shadows.
Hebrews 10:1 — the Law’s ceremonies were shadows.
Ephesians 2:15 — Christ abolished “the law of commandments contained in ordinances.”
Christ did not abolish God’s moral law, but He did abolish the ceremonial ordinances of Israel because they were shadows pointing to Him. Christ fulfilled the Law perfectly, and believers fulfill the Law’s righteous requirement through the Spirit by walking in love.
Jesus fulfills every typological office and object of Israel — priest, prophet, king, temple, manna, mercy seat — because He is the substance of every shadow.
He is the true High Priest (Hebrews 4–10).
He is the true Prophet (Deut 18 → Acts 3).
He is the true King (Luke 1:32–33).
He is the true Temple (John 2:19–21).
He is the true Manna (John 6:31–35).
He is the true Mercy Seat (Romans 3:25).
Jeremiah 3:16 teaches that the Ark would become irrelevant in the future restoration because God’s presence would no longer be tied to a physical object. This aligns perfectly with the New Covenant.
Babylon took the Temple vessels, but Scripture never says they took the Ark. The silence strongly implies the Ark was hidden or removed before the Babylonians entered. The Ark was deadly only when approached unlawfully. It was not an untouchable object; it was a holy object with strict regulations.
Philistines touched it — no immediate death, but plagues (1 Samuel 5).
Beth‑shemesh looked inside — death (1 Samuel 6:19).
Levites carried it properly — no death.
Priests touched it on Yom Kippur — no death.
Scripture never says the Ark remained intact until the veil was torn. It simply disappears from history after the Babylonian invasion.
Rome did not possess or destroy the Ark. It was already missing centuries before Rome arrived.

Christ did not abolish the law but made them obsolete.
The shadows are yet to come.

 

[OMC]

Christ did not abolish the law but made them obsolete.
The shadows are yet to come.

Scripture is explicit that the shadows were pointing forward to Christ, not to future ceremonies: “These are a shadow of things to come, but the body is Christ” (Col 2:17). The shadows have reached their fulfillment in Him; what remains is not the shadow but the ongoing reality of His priesthood, His covenant, and His Spirit.

 

[lrs68]

Yes, I’ve heard the claim. No, it has never been supported by evidence. Scripture does not predict a secret rediscovery, and history provides no confirmation. The Arkere’s location remains unknown, and every claim of discovery is unverified.

Personally, I don't believe there's a specific reason for why the AoC cannot be discovered. It wouldn't represent anything but verification that it factually existed. Everyone knows the general significance of the meaning of the AoC. So there's no real purpose for it not to be discovered should it be discovered.

 

[OMC]

Personally, I don't believe there's a specific reason for why the AoC cannot be discovered. It wouldn't represent anything but verification that it factually existed. Everyone knows the general significance of the meaning of the AoC. So there's no real purpose for it not to be discovered should it be discovered

Scripture shows no barrier to its discovery, yet it also teaches that the Ark’s past purpose is fulfilled and no longer central to God’s covenant (Jer 3:16), so its appearance today would verify history but add nothing to salvation or revelation.