The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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FreeGrace2 said:
Also, v.14 and v.19 also make it clear that Christ died for everyone.
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Vs.19 for sure, but vs.14 is a deep spiritual truth,

For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: vs.14

He's showing why he and all people should consider ourselves dead, because our Savior did, because of his love of mankind. Jesus truly lived as any man, though without sin as any man.
I think one of the most insightful stories into Gods' character is where the woman was caught in adultry. The only One who had a right to cast a stone didn't. Amazing!
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Also, v.14 and v.19 also make it clear that Christ died for everyone.
Journeyman said:
Vs.19 for sure, but vs.14 is a deep spiritual truth,
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: vs.14

He's showing why he and all people should consider ourselves dead, because our Savior did, because of his love of mankind. Jesus truly lived as any man, though without sin as any man.
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The verse also says that One died for all people, and therefore all were dead spiritually.
 
Journeyman said:
Jn.12:23-24 has our Lord saying the gospel has gone out to the world. Greek believers came seeking him, because the heard about him raising Lazarus from the dead (vss.17-22).

Then Jesus said,

If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour. (vs.26).

God prevents no one who desires to come to him.
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No man naturally desires to serve God in Christ. Once a man is born again, then a spiritual desire is created within man, and thats what Christs death accomplished for all whom He died, jew and gentile elect. Jesus tells us in Jn 10 who follows Him Jn 10:27
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And these Sheep are for whom He died Jn 10:11,15
 
brightfame52 said:
No man naturally desires to serve God in Christ. Once a man is born again, then a spiritual desire is created within man, and thats what Christs death accomplished for all whom He died, jew and gentile elect. Jesus tells us in Jn 10 who follows Him Jn 10:27
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And these Sheep are for whom He died Jn 10:11,15
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God began by creating Adam in his image. When the Bible says the "natural man" doesn't receive the things of the Spirit, it means those who live according to sinful desires. Paul doesn't mean mankind has no desire for God.
 
brightfame52 said:
No man naturally desires to serve God in Christ.
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You continue to be confused. No natural man is even IN Christ. You need to get your facts straight. When a person believes in Christ for salvation, the Holy Spirit seals the believer and the believer is born again. That is when a believer will desire to serve God.

Once a man is born again, then a spiritual desire is created within man, and thats what Christs death accomplished for all whom He died, jew and gentile elect.
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Calvinist talking point. And wrong at that. Christ died for everyone. John Calvin cannot explain 2 Cor 5:19 which says that God reconciled the world in Him.

Jesus tells us in Jn 10 who follows Him Jn 10:27
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: And these Sheep are for whom He died Jn 10:11,15
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V.27 describes what believer DO or OUGHT TO DO. There is no conditional language in either v.27 or v.28 that results in what they do in v.27 being a condition for never perishing in v.28.

In fact, John 3:16 says the same thing. "whoever believes shall never perish but have eternal life".

Boom.
 
Journeyman said:
You're right. He died for people who didn't love him. Wow!
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FreeGrace2 said:
More wow. John 3:16 - For God SO LOVED the world that He gave (sacrificed) His Son so that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Double wow!
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This verse always hits me ...

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do.

spoken as He hung on the tree ... after having been beaten to the point where His visage was marred beyond any other man.

oh the love ...

.
 
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Journeyman said:
God began by creating Adam in his image. When the Bible says the "natural man" doesn't receive the things of the Spirit, it means those who live according to sinful desires. Paul doesn't mean mankind has no desire for God.
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Man died spiritually in Adam, so from thence all men are born spiritually dead to the True God, and have no desire for Him, and cannot desire Him, because they are dead to God. Now man must be made a new creature by the sovereign mercy and grace of God to begin any seeking of Him and any true spiritual desire of Him. Until that happens man is dead, dead, dead to God, the True God, yet he is alive to idols and false gods of his own spiritually dark imagination.
 
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brightfame52 said:
Man died spiritually in Adam, so from thence all men are born spiritually dead to the True God, and have no desire for Him, and cannot desire Him, because they are dead to God. Now man must be made a new creature by the sovereign mercy and grace of God to begin any seeking of Him and any true spiritual desire of Him. Until that happens man is dead, dead, dead to God, the True God, yet he is alive to idols and false gods of his own spiritually dark imagination.
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brightflame52,
People are born into this world spiritually alive. It's knowledge of what is evil and doing evil that causes death,

I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died; Rom.7:9
 
The Basis for Spiritual Life !

Christ's Finished Work for them He died for, is the basis for the Spirits Work for them and in them. Christ's Work for them by the Cross , is what makes them Righteous before God's Law and Justice as though they never have sinned Isa 53:11

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. or

Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.


Rom 5:19b

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

And based on that, the Holy Spirit must do a work in them[Jn 16] by first showing them the finished work and the Righteousness that is put upon their account, this He does by the Instrumentality of the Gospel Rom 1:16-17

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

That Righteousness of God revealed to Faith, is the Righteousness that was imputed to ones account because of the Finished work of Christ that put away their sins that had been imputed to Him 2 Cor 5:21 , The Spirit shows that finished Work to sinners Christ died for, when He also gives them New Life !
 
Journeyman said:
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brightflame52,
People are born into this world spiritually alive. It's knowledge of what is evil and doing evil that causes death,

I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin came to life, and I died; Rom.7:9
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Nope sorry, people are born into this world spiritually dead. Why you think Paul wrote Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
 
brightfame52 said:
Nope sorry, people are born into this world spiritually dead. Why you think Paul wrote Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)
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You ignore the scripture I cited. I won't ignore the scripture you cited. Eph.2:1,5 don't say people are born spiritually dead. Look at Eph.2:2. We were dead in the sins we walked in, not transfered on to us by Adam our forefather. We were dead because we listened to the devil.

God says he forgives the repentant. He forgave our first human parents Adam and Eve.
 
Journeyman said:
You ignore the scripture I cited. I won't ignore the scripture you cited. Eph.2:1,5 don't say people are born spiritually dead. Look at Eph.2:2. We were dead in the sins we walked in, not transfered on to us by Adam our forefather. We were dead because we listened to the devil.

God says he forgives the repentant. He forgave our first human parents Adam and Eve.
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If something or someone was made alive it was dead Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So do you deny man is dead in sins ?
 
brightflame52 said,
If something or someone was made alive it was dead
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I've done nothing but agree. Paul said he died when the commandment came, that is, when he became aware of what God calls sin. He was alive spiritually before that.

brightflame52 said,
Eph 2:1,5

And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;

5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved)

So do you deny man is dead in sins ?
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I haven't denied it. I said man is dead in his own sins, not the sins of any other.
 
Journeyman said:
I've done nothing but agree. Paul said he died when the commandment came, that is, when he became aware of what God calls sin. He was alive spiritually before that.

I haven't denied it. I said man is dead in his own sins, not the sins of any other.
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Men are spiritually dead in sin, dead to God naturally.
 
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