The Bible debate

[phil112]

Whilst we should all agree with the sentiments about 'people looking down their noses' and not needing scholars to decipher the meaning, I think we should also remember that it was scholars who re-discovered the original languages, learnt it then set to task to translate the bible. Erasmus, Tyndale, Wycliffe et al all had to have scholarly leanings to be able to do what they did. And praise God that this was so or we would all have to learn Latin or rely on the priests to tell us the word of god...........................

And what I am saying, to you and anyone else that takes exception to my stance is this: Regardless of who did it, the KJV was accurately translated, and we are able to verify that it was done as well as anyone one can. There is no need for anyone else to do it again. It is a finished work. It is complete. It is God's plan of salvation for us and it can be easily and clearly followed. It is time to become a man, put away childish things, move from milk to strong meat, become perfect in Christ. The KJV is such that we can do it, and do it without having someone elses opinion on what they think the bible should really say.

 

[lookuptoseeJesus]

King james was translated to support church of England dogma

King james uses these words

BLESS - what does that mean? King james covered that one up!
you have no clue what it means! It will change your worship in your church immediately
Arent you interested?

PRAISE - what does that mean? There are 11 different words all translated PRAISE instead of the 11 different words.

LAW - there are four different laws in the origianl completely different and yet the greek smashed these all into one word, LAW

arent you interested which law was nailed to the cross?

All the debates on this thread is do to the POOR TRANSLATION of the king james!

A translator whould make clear the original meaning this is totally unclear

there are about 20 words that just totally confuse issue and that ends up being the cause of all the controversies in this thread and the reason there is controversy is peopele dont want to know the truth and pul out confused scriptures to support plain error

did you know HELL acutlly was translated from the word "GRAVE" and "PLACE OF SILENCE"
king james had them put in a greek word for a false daoctrine ever burning hades a perfectly pagan belief

you just dont know what you are talking about because you never checked it out.

King james greek words are pretty good except they got those words wrong

did you know SABBATH in the new testament was CHANGED to WEEK?

that is why people think the Sabbath was changed
well
it was
the WORD SABBATH was changed to WEEK and FIRST DAY of the week
but the original clearly says Sabbath.

how many times?
DOZENS!
there could be nno sunday worship if king james would have been faithful

oh
I see
that is why they CAHANGED the words!

like I said
to support their English church religion

dont tell me it is accurate I can show you the verses

all you have to do is cloikc on the word and see what they really mean
you can see for yourself

when you read other versions you will find out that the different translatore cchanged DIFFERENT word sto match THEIR religion!

so get a 4 way parallel Bible and read it
see whcih verses conflict
and then you know where to study

just look up the words real meaning

and you will see where king james used his power to change it.

 

[lookuptoseeJesus]

You can get all the truth out of the Bible if you look up ALL the verses on a subject

because some verses they changed
and some verses they didnt change

so you can see they used the same original word two or three different ways!


Proof

the original word for PASTOR

they translated two different ways
when they talked about a MAN they translated it PASTOR and when they talked about the WOMEN they translated it SERVANT

same word
why would thy do that?

king james did not allow women to be pastors

anyone can look that up

if you still think they translated all word scorrect, you are just decieving yourself

stop listening to the fanatic gail riplinger New age Bible versions
she knows all this stuff and hid that information.

 

[lookuptoseeJesus]

The king james is the best bible from the best original

but
it had some changes in it

Why do you think Jesus told us to DIG in the word FIND the truth
SEEK and you will find
work at it

surface reading will make you a church of englanst believer in eternal torture that only a pervert sadist would ever do, there is no eternal torture that is satanic
king james pushed that to scare his subjects into being good

also king james did not want to have to kneel down in front of God
why, he was KING!
so he had them all change KNEEL DOWN TO WORSHIP into a word they call BLESS

so no one has a clue what they are supposed to do?

What DOES bless mean?
go look it up

and later they CHANGE THE MEANING to bless to "(Insert whatever you are told here)

which is false
4 hundred times
KNEEL DOWN IN THE TEMPLE TO WORSHIP GOD was changed to bless...

Why?

King didnt want to kneel down

and now we have irreverance in all churches

the king james committe have a fearful day of judgment coming

 

[lookuptoseeJesus]

Look
why would Jesus tell us to SEEK DEEPLY in the word to FIND lost TREASURE

if nothing was lost?

get it?
He knew it would be covered up

that is why he wrote in revelation everything in code!
he knew the pagan roman religion would rule the world for 1260 years

and would kill anyone with a Bible

and they would have thrown out revelation in and instant, ripped it out of the Bible and burned it in those 1260 years if revelation would have said plainly

The universal church (cathlic) would take over the world kill true christians make war against the Bible and change times and laws (sabbath to sunday and remove idol worship and change meaning of adultery) and would feed this wine of fornication to all the churches of the world making them daughters of her babylon tower of lies....

you can see the revelaion would not have survived

but it was written in code

and the false churches never figured it out becauase false churches never study they mjust make up their own stuff


so that is why we are to dig.

the truth is the truth
if you dont believe it and study it
it is your eternal loss
you were warned

ALl we are saying

is get several versions and compare them or just look up each work in king james

either way will:
1. correct your false doctrines (guraranteed you have some)
2. bring you out of Babylon
3. Stop all arguing on this thread, it will be clear that th LAW nailed to the crioss was the sacrificial law and the TEN COMMANDMENTS are binbding tight and in force until heaven and earth pass away..

but the daughters of Babylon (churches came out of the whore of Babylon) all took her false doctrines of hell, standing in prayer in irreverance, Destroying the sabbath blessing and allowing fornication and adultery in the church

that is why revelation calls the churches WHORES

they are
they allow adultery open marriage and perversions

and when you get a critical mass of believers who believe that is ok
than anyone like Elijah will be KILLED

and in revelation, it says the whores will come and kill those who keep the commandments

ok, the only question remains thus

are yo going to be shooting at the Jews or running into the woods with the Jews

that is the only question left for you.


Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.


If you do not study
and find and believe these errors
and superfuicially read the KJV only

you will be the enemy killling the fundamental Jews who believe in Jesus.

 

[twotwo]

....uh, do you have documented evidence of this assertion?.......or is this just your biased opinion?

This is a observation based on numerous encounter with Christian fundamentalists.

 

[twotwo]

More often than otherwise, those who advocate the KJV:

~ do so because they realize and understand the vital importance of reading / studying / teaching / preaching a non-corrupted bible version.

~ know that whatever "extra" effort that may be required to 'understand the KJV' -- is well worth it -- because of the "extra" truth contained therein - that is lost / corrupted / perverted in the modern translations.

~ know that the translators of the KJV were far more dedicated to ensuring a proper translation of God's Word into English.

~ know that - because it is 'timeless' - it is the best bible translation available in English. It is not subject to the "will and whim" of modern-day corrupted thinkers ( who, often, do not even know it ).

~ know that, as a practical issue, a group of people who are reading / studying / listening together will benefit more if all of them have the same bible version. And, while this singular idea is true whatever-the-bible-version -- when combined with all of the other ideas mentioned here, as well as the historical significance - makes the KJV unmistakably the best bible translation available in English.



Even among possibly several "accepted" bible versions --- why would anyone not want to use the best one available?



Anyone who preaches their own doctrine -- with intent - or out of ignorance --- is weak in the faith...

You are just repeating what you have been told without trying to verify its veracity.

 

[twotwo]

Many KJV verses make no more sense in modern English and others have different meaning. As a result, you read something but it means something completely different in modern English. In short, you need a translator to understand the true meaning of what the KJV is saying. Furthermore, the KJV is filled with many textual, cultural, political, as well as theological biases. Check by yourselves what scholars are saying about the KJV. I would never recommend the KJV to anybody.

As I said before, more often than otherwise those who advocate the KJV are fundamentalists making unfounded religious claims to serve their own interests. A little bit of googling would easily convince you.

 

[ServantStrike]

However, I do want to address something you bring up. You do not need to be a scholar to understand this (I'm a layman just as you are, although I have a more than passing grasp of the Greek), but I still feel like you misunderstand the core premise behind the critical text. The premise on which many of the modern translations work is this - an older reading is to be prefered to a newer reading, unless there are particular circumstances that favour a newer reading.

I'll illustrate it like this - let's say you are playing chinese whispers with 1000 people. The first person says "The sky is blue."
The second person mishears, and says "the pie is blue." Every subsequent person hears accurately, and repeats "The pie is blue". Thus, you have 999 people saying "the pie is blue". 999/1 seems impressive, until you realise that if you are trying to discern what the first person said, all 999 points are inaccurate.

The premise behind textual criticism works in a similar way. You cannot simply tally up the number of manuscripts and go with whatever reading is attested the most. What matters is 'what did the original autographs actually say?' The best way to determine this is to find the earliest MSS, and see what they say.

Also, it's worth pointing out there very few translations rely solely on the uncial codices, simply because there are several MSS of particular parts of the NT that are older, and thus more favourable. Some of these agree with the codices anyway, some do not (usually in minor respects). The Codices themselves are still very useful, however, mostly because those manuscripts are still older than many of the Greek texts used in majority texts. For instance, when Erasmus compiled the TR, which served as a based for the KJV, he relied mostly on a set of Greek texts all dating almost a millennium (a couple more) later than the uncial codices, and even more compared to some minuscules used in the critical texts. Several passages (off the top of my head I think they were in Revelation) were simply back translated from the LAtin Vulgate, instead of from any extant Greek manuscript available at the time

It's also worth pointing out that I am not at all interested in 'which translation uses source texts that best accentuate the deity of Christ.' . I am not at all interested in glosses on the original text, even orthodox ones. I do not want a translation that begs the question. I simply want to know what the apostles, and those working with them, originally wrote. And I happen to think they highlighted the deity of Christ enough as it is!

I understand how it works, I just don't use age as my number one criteria. And just because there are MSS that are used now, the entire premise of textual criticism was founded by individuals who clung to certain unical codices. The MSS were added later to confirm the veracity of the texts which were already translated.

You are correct about the back translation in Revelation. Erasmus did indeed translate some of the verses in Revelation from the Latin Vulgate.

My criteria of the divinity of Christ being the standard in a manuscript is less scholarly, but is the criteria I prefer.

Many KJV verses make no more sense in modern English and others have different meaning. As a result, you read something but it means something completely different in modern English. In short, you need a translator to understand the true meaning of what the KJV is saying. Furthermore, the KJV is filled with many textual, cultural, political, as well as theological biases. Check by yourselves what scholars are saying about the KJV. I would never recommend the KJV to anybody.

As I said before, more often than otherwise those who advocate the KJV are fundamentalists making unfounded religious claims to serve their own interests. A little bit of googling would easily convince you.

It's the number two most popular translation behind the NIV. You're making some broad and sweeping generalizations here.

Not everyone who reads it is some dumb yokel, and not everyone who reads it has a doctrinal axe to grind.

Be careful how far you go down the "I know something you don't" road.

 

[Oak]

The reason this debate exists is because no translation is perfect, no translation is right, no translation will ever be perfect but the KJV onlyists have a need for a perfect version or else they feel they aren't really reading Gods true words. They CANNOT accept the FACT that all bibles are just a translation! Then they will cite something from the book that can be bent to say what they want it to say. The KJV is so vague it can appeal to just about anyone from peter ruckman to fred phelps.

If undeniable evidence came about then we would all know but since no evidence of anything exists the debate exists.

For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they know God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. Professing themselves to be wise, the became fools,
and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four footed beasts, and creeping things.

Prime example right there, many will be able to decipher what it says but many will come up with a different conclusion, it is the same though out the entire book!

 

[KJV1611]

The reason we have debate over bible translations is because most Christians don't have enough faith to believe the bible. The bible plainly tells us that the word of God is Jesus.

Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

There is only one Jesus, hence only one word of God. It's just a matter of looking at the translations and determining which is the true word of God and which is a fake... it's really simple.

 

[Reformedjason]

Jesus is the logos not the kjv.

 

[Oak]

the message of Jesus is not in question. Even my sons children's story bible gets that message across. It even gives a fairly clear picture of the rest of the stories though out the bible.

Your idea of their only being one translation that tells the true word of God is BS. You are going off of feelings nothing else. You feel this way because you want this to be the case or else you feel it has errors and that damages your faith.

 

[KJV1611]

Jesus is the logos not the kjv.

What is the word in this verse?

Luk_8:11 Now the parable is this: The seed is the word of God.

 

[atomiku]

No, they do not know more about God's plan of salvation for me than I do. You? Sounds like it, but not me.

Just because I disagree with you I get this. Great your acting consistantly with other kjv olyist. I bet you like ruckman and riplinger as well.

I hope that your not saying there is anything wrong with Riplinger, She has done more study on this issue then you ever will.

 

[atomiku]

the message of Jesus is not in question. Even my sons children's story bible gets that message across. It even gives a fairly clear picture of the rest of the stories though out the bible.

Your idea of their only being one translation that tells the true word of God is BS. You are going off of feelings nothing else. You feel this way because you want this to be the case or else you feel it has errors and that damages your faith.

I actually do it because I believe in GOD preserving his WORD, When he said keep my words and saying in Matthew, how can i do this if we dont have a perfect account of his words? How can i trust any doctrine any belief if i dont have the correct translation of his words? GOD is not the author of confusion, and having ALL these modern versions that change words and delete words and change doctrines do is create confusion, and that is not of GOD, that is of Satan.

 

[KJV1611]

the message of Jesus is not in question. Even my sons children's story bible gets that message across. It even gives a fairly clear picture of the rest of the stories though out the bible.

Your idea of their only being one translation that tells the true word of God is BS. You are going off of feelings nothing else. You feel this way because you want this to be the case or else you feel it has errors and that damages your faith.

You said "Your idea of their only being one translation that tells the true word of God is BS. ".
I don't think it's BS, like I said earlier, contrasts between the true word of God and the word of Satan are all over the bible.

Jas 3:11 Doth a fountain send forth at the same place sweet water and bitter?
Jas 3:12 Can the fig tree, my brethren, bear olive berries? either a vine, figs? so can no fountain both yield salt water and fresh.

Sweet water - the true word.
Bitter water - all others.

The bible is all about contrasts, there are always only 2 choices - God's way and the serpents way. This is pretty basic stuff, most everyone who reads the bible knows this. To say that all translations are the same is unbliblical, it does not fit the pattern of God's way or the serpents way.

 

[LovePink]

the message of Jesus is not in question. Even my sons children's story bible gets that message across. It even gives a fairly clear picture of the rest of the stories though out the bible.

Your idea of their only being one translation that tells the true word of God is BS. You are going
off of feelings nothing else. You feel this way because you want this to be the case or else you feel it has errors and that damages your faith.

Hey Oak,

There are kjv extremist, they do not even understand the edification process built into the kjv for the establishment of the house of doctrine God wants to build in our inner man, by study. This is the very heart of the matter, not the "message" of Christianity, because you are right even with a childrens book or no book at all, faith comes by hearing.

What the study of the curriculum laid out in the kjv does is "stablish" the workman & create the ambassador, this is an "image". The need for proper "establishment" is for building, we are God's husbandry, God's building, His workmanship. When one sees the comparative method through study of the kjbible, it opens up just what Rms 12:1-2 & 2 Tim 2:2 are all about for the will of God in our lives, this is about practice, a saved person needs to be useful to sound doctrine.

One bible, people should try to stop using all other books/material, study from one bible, rely on God... it is very hard to do this, it is hard for the flesh to commit to authority and trust God. We want to be critically intellectual and multi-books feels empowering to knowledge and wisdom about God. One bible and fellowship with saints of the "ensample" is priceless treasure useful to edification unto maturity, a perfect man.


28*Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus

17*For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.


Studying one bible makes us sharp. "when they knew God" this is an important statement to doctrine, because Scripture speaks in tenses... we all have knowledge of God "manifest in them", check out v28 then look at v18. "hold the truth in unrighteousness" even Christians do this, religion/theology is not our friend... or flesh loves that rotten fruit.

 

[Oak]

if you knew something nobody else did and you had evidence we wouldn't be having this debate. The truth is the KJV is losing ground everyday.

the kjv onlyist debate is null. Why do the new translations exist? Why didn't they discover this years and years ago? Did God come down and declare that the KJV is the most accurate? NO!

You have nothing other than feelings about the subject. you can cite all of the vague poetic passages you want to but just because it's poetry does not mean its factual or even meaningful.

Do you not see that the topic is subjective? Everyone has their own opinions and thats all they are.

 

[Oak]

by that way of thinking someone who reads one bible is more knowledgeable than someone who has read more material? How? This makes no sense.

Hey Oak,

There are kjv extremist, they do not even understand the edification process built into the kjv for the establishment of the house of doctrine God wants to build in our inner man, by study. This is the very heart of the matter, not the "message" of Christianity, because you are right even with a childrens book or no book at all, faith comes by hearing.

What the study of the curriculum laid out in the kjv does is "stablish" the workman & create the ambassador, this is an "image". The need for proper "establishment" is for building, we are God's husbandry, God's building, His workmanship. When one sees the comparative method through study of the kjbible, it opens up just what Rms 12:1-2 & 2 Tim 2:2 are all about for the will of God in our lives, this is about practice, a saved person needs to be useful to sound doctrine.

One bible, people should try to stop using all other books/material, study from one bible, rely on God... it is very hard to do this, it is hard for the flesh to commit to authority and trust God. We want to be critically intellectual and multi-books feels empowering to knowledge and wisdom about God. One bible and fellowship with saints of the "ensample" is priceless treasure useful to edification unto maturity, a perfect man.


28*Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus

17*For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.


Studying one bible makes us sharp. "when they knew God" this is an important statement to doctrine, because Scripture speaks in tenses... we all have knowledge of God "manifest in them", check out v28 then look at v18. "hold the truth in unrighteousness" even Christians do this, religion/theology is not our friend... or flesh loves that rotten fruit.