The book of Job, my favorite book.

[christophernyc]

To start with, not everything God said was a question. "He that reproveth God" is not a question.

Job had told God he didn't trust God to be a fair judge. Job went on to describe what kind of Judge he wanted. Therefore, God did not sit as Job's judge. God sent Elihu as judge at the request of Job. Elihu's speech was that of a judge. That is the difference

Correct, not everything God says to Job is a question. However, the overwhelming way God addresses Job is in the form of questions. This is not so with Elihu. Not even close. God's approach to Job and Elihu's *form* of approach to Job are overwhelmingly different.

Job is expressing in real terms what he is experiencing. He is being treated unfairly, that is true. As the reader we know this from the outset. But look at what Job also expresses. He says, "Though He [God] slay me, yet will I trust in Him." This is absolutely profound and utterly remarkable for Job to say under these circumstances. Not only does Job refrain from cursing God and abandoning his relationship with Him, Job doubles down and expresses even more confidence in the LORD.

Job knows that God knows he is suffering at no fault of his own in this ordeal. Job is struggling because he knows God knows that, too - but God is also not letting that fact be known to anyone else. In the end, God does makes things clearer by vindicating Job and rebuking his friends.

Nowhere does it say God sent Elihu. This is Elihu's *claim* which only exists in what he says and nowhere else.

 

[tttallison]

This is very helpful. Thank you. Referring to 9:17, was job not broken by a tempest? Were his wounds not multiplied without cause? These things are true. These things did happen to Job, and much more besides. This is a perfect example of why God says that Job has spoken rightly of Him (God).

You wrote that God does not destroy the perfect. This sounds like something Job's three friends would say. That is their logic. But if we read chapters 1 & 2, we understand clearly that God allowed Job to suffer this ordeal undeservingly. Nothing Job did warranted these calamities, as God Himself explicitly states.

Job did not pass the second test. Have you ever compared the two tests? Have you acknowledged that there were two tests?

Where does God say Job is suffering undeservedly after the second test?

 

[tttallison]

Additionally, did God allow His perfect Son Jesus to suffer and die and effectively be destroyed? (Yes, God raised Him from the dead, but God did allow Him first to be destroyed before raising Him back to life.) So if you cannot accept that Job was innocent and yet God let him suffer anyway, how are you able to accept the fact that Jesus was innocent and God allowed Him to suffer? If you do not believe God would destroy the perfect, is your position that Jesus Christ was not perfect then, too?

It seems it would be proper to say, "did God the father allow his perfect Son Jesus------", in order to recognize the Deity of Christ.

Jhn 10:18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father. Jesus is God manifested in the flesh.

Jesus was the Lamb without blemish. Christ died that we might have life. Job suffered so that Job might come to salvation.

 

[tttallison]

It's kind of amazing how someone is able to believe Elihu because Elihu (alone) claims he should be believed. And yet, when Job says he is speaking true, these same lovers of Elihu don't believe Job - even though God Himself affirms Job! Truly astounding.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 “All scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works”

Psa 119:160 Thy word is true from the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments endureth for ever.

John 17:17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Men have written the books of the Bible, but God is the author. If the Bible is inspired, why did God allow a liar to write six chapters?

All of Job"s words up to chapter 38 were condemned by God.
Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

It wasn't until in Job 42:6 that Job said something right. It was when Job said he repented in dust and ashes. Without repentance there is no salvation.

Mar 2:17 When Jesus heard it, he saith unto them, They that are whole have no need of the physician, but they that are sick: I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

Luk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.

 

[tttallison]

In 40:2. God is basically asking Job if Job is going to follow through with his lawsuit against Him and press charges for wrongdoing. Going with a courtroom analogy, Job's answer is effectively "no". Job drops his case and withdraws his complaint.

You do understand that this is one of the verses where it has just been acknowledged that Job called God unjust: Job reproved God.

 

[tttallison]

The word in Hebrew that satan uses is yə·ḇā·ră·ḵe·kā, which only appears 2 times in the Bible. So it is very difficult to cross reference. Yes, "barak" can mean bless, but it can also mean curse, according to Strongs. Either way, the point of what satan is saying is that Job will abandon his relationship with God. Satan believes Job's faith is only due to Job be rewarded by God, and of course, satan was wrong. Job does not abandon his faith in God. That's one of the main points of the entire story.

Also, did you notice what it says in 2:9? It says plainly, "In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

Strong's has two Hebrew words for that one English word that is translated curse. The one word is "lo" which means no, or not, and the other is "barak", or as you want it "yə·ḇā·ră·ḵe·kā". If your word means blaspheme, then Satan would have said Job will not blaspheme.

Strong's numbers-and he will curse H1288 H3808 thee to thy face.
Strong's H1288 - bāraḵ
Strong's H3808 - lō'
The KJV translates Strong's H3808 in the following manner: not, no, none, nay, never, neither,---etc.

 

[tttallison]

Also, did you notice what it says in 2:9? It says plainly, "In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

The first chapter leaves us with two methods of sinning. Job 1:5 It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts.
The second method. Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

In the first test Job did not charge God foolishly. But Job sure did charge God foolishly later. Notice in the first test it is a compound sentence giving Job a clean slate. It is not so in the second test. It only says Job did not sin with his lips. It doesn't say Job sinned not. It was the other method of sinning. It was with the heart. Job did not bless God after the second test, though Job did bless God after the first test.

 

[tttallison]

But let me rephrase the question. Where does it say in the story that God is *actually* angry with Job? Again, we know Job is not suffering because God is angry with him. No, in fact, what we read is God appearing quite pleased with Job saying, "There none on earth like him." So even though Job may feel God is angry with him, we know God is not. God being angry with Job is not how the story begins.

So again, where does the author of the story tell us God is actually angry with Job? For that matter, where does God say He is angry with Job either? That is the question being asked. Where is that verse?

Job said God was angry with him. Job knew, for he said the arrows of the Almighty are within him.

You are right, God said there was no one as self-righteous as Job. You know what the bible says about a righteous man?

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Elihu said, Job 33:23- If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness: Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

 

[christophernyc]

Not sure I follow you’re train of thought, but I’ll play along. Job passed the first test, as you have stated. Then on the heels of that he faced his “second” test. He did not deserve the first test so he clearly did not “deserve” the second, right? If he passed the first test as you say, what warranted the second? In any case, both are kinda the same, are they not?

In any event, the root of what Satan was getting at (I.e.,, Job only served God for the rewards) was ultimately proven wrong. Job remained faithful to the end.

 

[tttallison]

Not sure I follow you’re train of thought, but I’ll play along. Job passed the first test, as you have stated. Then on the heels of that he faced his “second” test. He did not deserve the first test so he clearly did not “deserve” the second, right? If he passed the first test as you say, what warranted the second? In any case, both are kinda the same, are they not?

In any event, the root of what Satan was getting at (I.e.,, Job only served God for the rewards) was ultimately proven wrong. Job remained faithful to the end.

Because Job passed the first test does not mean he didn’t deserve the test. God has a purpose for everything God does. Satan had a purpose as well. Satan knew that Job’s righteousness would only carry Job so far. God says all our righteousness is as filthy rags. If you have the most righteous man in the world, will that righteousness save him?

God later says to Job-Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

God knew Job would pass the first test, but Satan didn’t. God also knew Job would fail the second test. God’s purpose for the two tests was not the same as Satan’s purpose. Satan was vying for Job’s soul. Satan wanted to take Job down to the pit with him. God loved Job, just as God loves all sinners, just as he loves you and me.

Job had a zeal for God, but without knowledge, and going about to establish his own righteousness, had not submitted himself to the righteousness of God.

Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

God had a twofold purpose for sending Elihu. The first was to fulfill Job’s request for him. The second was to be a testimony of the righteousness of God. Jesus is the righteousness of God.

1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

1Co 15:34 Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

Job 33:23 If there be a messenger with him, an interpreter, one among a thousand, to shew unto man his uprightness:

God never asks a question of man, without giving the man the answer.

It is interesting that God never directs his speech to Job in the first two chapters, only to Satan, and it is about Job. When God does direct his speech to Job, God presents Satan. We find this in chapter forty-one.

 

[christophernyc]

Job did not pass the second test. Have you ever compared the two tests? Have you acknowledged that there were two tests?

Where does God say Job is suffering undeservedly after the second test?

Yes, I think it is fair to say there were two tests. I know others have disagreed with you, but I have no problem calling them two tests.

So, let's break this down. We could call them "tests" or perhaps "trials" would be fitting, too. In the first test, Job loses all of his possessions and his response is that the Lord gives and the Lord takes away - blessed be the name of the Lord. Then satan appears again and God clearly states to satan that "thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." Then satan raises the stakes (second test) and says to strike his flesh, Job's physical body, and then Job will curse God. Satan is predicting the same result he predicted the first time.

So if the first time was *without cause* as God says, and Job actually blesses God, how is the second test not also *without cause*?

Satan would not have tried a second test had Job failed the first one. (I think you would agree to that.) But your point is that Job failed the second test. However, what is Job's response when even his own wife incited him to curse God after the second test? Here is what it says: "Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips."

Job effectively rebukes his wife for urging him to curse God, and then Job willfully accepts that he can receive evil in addition to the good things he received from God. I would not call this failure by any stretch of the imagination. What is written is quite clear.

This brings us to a point I know we do not see eye to eye on, and that is how Job speaks after chapter 2. I do believe Job regrets cursing his day, and I do believe he decides to withdraw his complaint (like a plaintiff in a courtroom) that he brings to God. However, God does explicitly say that Job has spoken rightly about Him (God), and that is in contrast to the three friends in chapters 4 - 31.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

Book of job. He was persecuted.
Satan was behind it.

But God STARTED the ball rolling, not satan, who's interactions with Job were under God's control.

 

[tttallison]

Yes, I think it is fair to say there were two tests. I know others have disagreed with you, but I have no problem calling them two tests.

So, let's break this down. We could call them "tests" or perhaps "trials" would be fitting, too. In the first test, Job loses all of his possessions and his response is that the Lord gives and the Lord takes away - blessed be the name of the Lord. Then satan appears again and God clearly states to satan that "thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." Then satan raises the stakes (second test) and says to strike his flesh, Job's physical body, and then Job will curse God. Satan is predicting the same result he predicted the first time.

Presented these before, but will do so again for clarity.

THE TWO TESTS OF JOB​

Job had two tests. Whenever you take a test, you get scored on that test. In the reading of the first and second chapters of Job we are caught up with the anguish and torment of Job, and in the process we are blinded to the actual results of the two tests.

The first thing that should come to your observation is the process of the presentation of these two tests. They are virtually word for word in the presentation between the first test, and the second test. What would one obvious reason be for the two presentations being almost identical? One obvious reason would be that we might take note of that which is different between the two tests.

PRSENTATION OF THE TWO TESTS​

The following will be a comparison of the presentations of the two tests with the differences highlighted in blue.

First Test Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.

Second Test Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them, to present himself before the Lord.

In the first test Satan appears to have been a casual observer, while in the second test you might assume Satan was commanded to be there.
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First Test Job 1:7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

Second Test Job 2:2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

They are identical.
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First Test Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Second Test Job 2:3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? And still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

The difference is the first test has already taken place, and Job has passed. Two other things should be noted here. 1. That God did the moving, or is responsible for Job’s tribulation. 2. That Satan’s cause was unjust, Job passed. It does not mention God’s cause for allowing the test.
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First Test Job 1:9-10 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house and about all that he hath on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hand, and his substance is increased in the land.

Second Test Job 2:4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

The difference is that the first test has taken place. The new test does not involve possessions, but Job himself.
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First Test Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

Second Test Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

The difference here is that Satan gives his new reason why Job will fail.
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First Test Job 1:12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.

Second Test Job 2:6-7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; but save his life. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord,--.

God’s presentation of the two tests is unique in that every word that could be duplicated was, from one test compared to the other test. It is the results of the two tests that will be presented next, and the obvious differences stand out.
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RESULTS OF THE TWO TESTS​

First Test Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, and said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Second Test Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes. (Notice that Job does not bless God. This was what Satan had said, that Job would "not bless" [lo-barak] God to his face.)
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After the first test Job prostrated himself before God and worshipped God. Job mentioned his mother’s womb in a neutral manner, and then blessed the name of the Lord.

After the second test Job sat down and said nothing. The worshipping and blessing of God is missing. When Job finally said something it was in reply to his wife’s question, in which Job replied with a question, “shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? Notice after the first test Job mentioned his mother’s womb in a neutral manner, but after the second test we hear Job cursing the day he came out of his mother’s womb. (Job 3:1,10-12) Continued---
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[tttallison]

Yes, I think it is fair to say there were two tests. I know others have disagreed with you, but I have no problem calling them two tests.

So, let's break this down. We could call them "tests" or perhaps "trials" would be fitting, too. In the first test, Job loses all of his possessions and his response is that the Lord gives and the Lord takes away - blessed be the name of the Lord. Then satan appears again and God clearly states to satan that "thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause." Then satan raises the stakes (second test) and says to strike his flesh, Job's physical body, and then Job will curse God. Satan is predicting the same result he predicted the first time.

First Test Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Second Test Job 2:10 ---In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Herein lays the key to the two tests. Job is completely exonerated in the first test. Notice that Job did not sin in any manner. Examine that which is added, “nor charged God foolishly”. Job charged God foolishly time and time again after the second test, but after the first test Job did not charge God foolishly.

After the second test it is recorded that Job did not sin with his lips, but what about his heart?

There is no meeting between God and Satan that is recorded after the second test. After the first test God said to Satan in regards to Job, “--There is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil, and still he holded fast his integrity,--” (Job 2:3)

After the second test we do not have God commending Job to Satan, why not?

Here is one other point. There are two ways of sinning as listed in the first two chapters. One is with the heart, as indicated by Job in reference to his sons in Job 1:5. The other is with the lips as mentioned in Job 2:10. Satan’s charge was that Job would curse God with his lips, for that is what is meant by “to God’s face”. The answer to the first test is that Job sinned not (That means Job didn’t sin either with his lips, or with his heart.), nor charged God foolishly.

The answer to the second test is that Job didn’t sin with his lips. That still leaves us with his heart, and with charging God foolishly. Notice that in the end Job says to God, “no thought can be withholden from thee”. Surely Job is speaking of the thoughts of his heart.

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Job 2:8 is a key verse here. (Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.)

This is a picture of the potsherd scraping himself with a potsherd. (Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?)

The potsherd is a vessel stained with sin and has to be broken. (Levitus 6:28 But the earthen vessel wherein it is sodden shall be broken: -----.

 

[jacko]

Question.

How was Job able to have that deep faith to endure all these trials... other than receive this gift/blessing from God himself?

 

[tttallison]

Question.

How was Job able to have that deep faith to endure all these trials... other than receive this gift/blessing from God himself?

What was Job's faith in. Yes, Job was trusting God to be his salvation. But Job was trusting that his own righteousness would be the reason God would save him. That is entirely contrary to scripture. God doesn't save us because we are good people.

Job said,​

Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
Job 13:15Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him.
Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.
Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.
Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:
Job 29:20 My glory was fresh in me, and my bow was renewed in my hand.
Job 29:24 If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down.
Job 29:25 I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.

Pro 30:22 For a servant when he reigneth; and a fool when he is filled with meat;
Pro 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness.
Job 11:4 For thou hast said, My doctrine is pure, and I am clean in thine eyes.
Job 16:17 Not for any injustice in mine hands: also my prayer is pure.

 

[Derobo]

Question.

How was Job able to have that deep faith to endure all these trials... other than receive this gift/blessing from God himself?

He realised, everything Goes through God, so in the highest humility he understood that God is the only one who could help him.
sometimes God test us in this world, through Riches, or relationships, but he can take it all away in a split second, to make you understand you need him and through these trials you will build your faith stronger, remember he's your creator, and he does love you, but sometimes people takes things for granted, and stop helping others who need help, or shine the Love of God as we are supposed to.
the bible says those whom he loves he chastises. some more than others, he knows best.


Hebrews 12:6

For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

 

[Mem]

Question.

How was Job able to have that deep faith to endure all these trials... other than receive this gift/blessing from God himself?

How could he avoid it? Job said, "though he slay me, yet will I trust Him, but I will defend my ways to His face."
This is Job acknowledging that God could do whatever He liked, regardless of what whether Job thought it was just or not, and Job continues to argue that he doesn't believe God's ways are just, which is why he prefaced his statement yet will I defend my ways with the expectation that God may be displeased enough, with what he had to say in Job's argument for his defense, that He'd kill him.

Most view this as only Job saying, "All this suffering doesn't bother me a bit as I am faithful enough to suffer unto death..." but, Job is not Jesus, and his continually groaning about his suffering is clear evidence of why he is not perfect as Jesus is. If Job had not lost hope in Him, then why would he plea so feverously to regain hope?

 

[j55]

But God STARTED the ball rolling, not satan, who's interactions with Job were under God's control.

That's true. Satan wants Christian people to curse God. That's Satan's strategy. Job didn't.

 

[christophernyc]

Question.

How was Job able to have that deep faith to endure all these trials... other than receive this gift/blessing from God himself?

Excellent question. This entire story is a test of God's relationship with man, and in this case Job. God knows His relationship with His creation is more than merely transactional (otherwise He would never had let Job be tested in the first place.) Job also knows it is more than transactional (otherwise he would have abandoned his relationship with God all together).

Job's faith was certainly deeper by the end of his ordeal, but that is not to say Job did not have any real faith before his ordeal.

Thank you for posing this question. It is a bit rhetorical since it underscores that Job does in deed have faith in God from the outset of the story.