The church, Paul agrees, Post Tribulation.

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 27, 2024

Paul, in his first letter to the Thessalonians, said that "the Day of the Lord" ARRIVES "exactly like [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman (the very SAME word that Jesus used in the plural when referencing the "PANGS" ['beginning of'])... which is what Jesus had already talked about in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 "A CERTAIN ONE [(bringing deception); 'A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis]'] (which is the FIRST/INITIAL one of THOSE "birth pangS" Jesus spoke of).

How you had written it (in past posts) is that Paul was saying "birth PANGS [PLURAL]," but he actually said "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" (1Th5:1-3, where speaking of the Day of the Lord's ARRIVAL point in time). IOW, it does NOT commence at the MIDDLE or END of the Trib years, but at its START.

Once this is acknowledged (from the text itself), one can then place things in their proper time-slot [/chronology].

Many people mistake this, thus come to incorrect conclusions as to Paul's actual point(s).

GaryA · Feb 27, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

It appears to me that you understand a whole lot more about what the Bible [actually] says about the End Times Scenario than many CC members...

Pilgrimshope · Feb 27, 2024

TheDivineWatermark said:

Actuwlly the only way to actually know what Paul’s saying is to read what he’s saying in its context and not reject and butcher it to avoid it and create alternative ideas from single verses

like for instance we can’t know Paul said this unless we are willing to read it and not pretend it’s not true or real or relevant because we had other ideas

“Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:4-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This type of thing is there for a reason and is part of Paul’s consistent doctrine in his letters

Or things like this also part of his doctrine consistently

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:12‬ ‭

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we aren’t supposed to find verses elsewhere to try to nullify the others is my point we should hear l of what Paul says in his letters and not avoid the parts that require us to change and act

PennEd · Feb 27, 2024

This is pretty close to what will happen:

Pilgrimshope · Feb 27, 2024

GaryA said:

I think we all think we understand some but I look back and realize how many times I thought that in life at 20 then at 30 realized I was an idiot but now I get it then fourty I must have just been a fool at 30 but ….now i get it then of course I had lost my bottom teeth two years ago and got dentures so surely now at my ripe old age I get it and I was just foolish all them other times lol

abut I’m always afraid ill
Last another ten and look back and see I was just a fool haha

We all have some form of value I think when it comes to biblical discussion I’ve learned quite a bit since coming here from things others were saying honestly

If we can live up to what we do each understand ourselves is the key keep a good walk with the lord going whether we know a lot or little

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 27, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

Right.

That's why I supplied you with the verse (for starters) where Paul uses the exact word (in the singular) that Jesus had used (in the plural); 1Thess5:[2-]3.

In view of this info, do you agree or not agree that both Paul and Jesus used the word "G5604":

--Jesus, in Matthew 24:8 / Mark 13:8 using "G5604 [in the PLURAL]" when referencing "[the beginning of] birth PANGS [G5604, pl]" He had just listed (in Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8... and where Matt24:4 / Mk 13:5 is telling of THE FIRST / INITIAL ONE of those);

--Paul, in 1 Thessalonians 5:[2-]3 using "G5604 [in the SINGULAR]" when referencing when and how "the Day of the Lord" will ARRIVE / COMMENCE, which he says will be "exactly like [hosper] the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR, G5604]" that COMES UPON a woman with child/in labor (i.e. SUDDENLY this initial pang comes upon her! And then, MANY MORE "birth pangS" follow on from that INITIAL one; It is not "ONE and DONE" when it comes to "birth pangs," either in nature or in what Jesus had spoken concerning);

When one properly defines and places (in its correct chronological starting point) the phrase "the Day of the Lord," per the above information supplied to us via the texts themselves (comparing scripture with scripture), one can begin to grasp Paul's actual points (elsewhere, on THIS Subject);

By the way, this word "G5604" is only used 4x in the NT, so it's not too complicated of an endeavor to compare what Paul said to that which Jesus had said (ON THIS Subject).

Please tell me whether you can see from the texts themselves, that Jesus used this word in the PLURAL, and Paul used this very word (1Th5:3) in the SINGULAR...

[and Paul did so, FOR A REASON... as he spells out...

]

--Matt24:8 / Mk13:8 - G5604 [PLURAL "N-GPF"] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mat/24/8/t_concif_953008 [and] https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/mar/13/8/t_concif_970008

--1Th5:3 - G5604 [SINGULAR "N-NSF"] - https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/1th/5/3/t_concif_1116003

If you do NOT see how these are the SAME Grk word (but one in the plural, the other in the singular), then I guess we can have no further discussion (about what "Paul said" [per your quote at top]), because we just won't be getting on the same page as to this first step in ascertaining what it is that he actually "said"

I'm fine with that.

Pilgrimshope · Feb 27, 2024

TheDivineWatermark said:

I just read a huge circle again and don’t understand what your saying . what are you asking about the Bible what subject the pre tribulation rapture ?

The “ rapture is going to happen at the end of the world when Jesus returns from heaven

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God:

and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: ( this moment is what people refer to as the rapture when Christ returns , the dead are raised and the still living church is all gathered together with the lord ) and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul isnt creating this he’s talking about what Jesus taught in the gospel giving firther revelation of it jesus taught then that he would return from heaven after all the tribulation ended and he would then deliver them before his wrath burns up creation

donyou see how you quoted chaoter 5 where Paul’s talking about the day of the lord coming like a thief ? Jesus taught that in his parables and you can understand it better if you read what else is said about it like this

Like this

“that ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour: knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts, and saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of the creation. But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:2-4, 8-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The timing is always the same the tribulation from the time of Christ until the end of the world , Jesus returns from heaven and the dead are raised his angels then gather his elect after the tribulation has concluded and the rest are throne into the finance where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth

The doctrine never varies from Jesus to Paul to Peter . You asking about a word plural or singular doesn’t have any relevance there is an abundance of doctrine that’s all in perfect harmony regarding the day Jesus will gather his church it’s not even really a debate ever since he said when he would do it after the tribulation he told them they would endure

Its hard to then find the doctrine for any pre tribulation rapture it would require me to think Jesus and his apostles all had it wrong it’s always at the resurrection of the dead when the church is raptured from earth just before this happens

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power; when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Only the believers will be saved before that happens but after all the worldly tribulation ends at the end of this world when the lord returns

“So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:49‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the harvest is at the end nothing is harvested before that’s the whole point of his parable there good and bad fro together then the harvesters come at the end harvest the good dispose of the bad

The church that’s still alive and well that day will experience this

“Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:51-52‬ ‭

GRACE_ambassador · Feb 27, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

Precious friend, thanks for your input.

No further need to continue with the rest of the 100 Plain and Clear Scriptures,
Which are:

Pilgrimshope said:

Eh?

At least precious @Evmur did stay a tad bit longer in his "cordial" discussion...

Precious friend, see you in God's Great GloryLand cc ♫ 😇 ↑

(Romans 16:17)

Amen.

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 27, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

To boil it down:

--I'm asking you about the word Paul used in 1Th5:3 "G5604"... does he use the SINGULAR or the PLURAL form?

(you always write it in one of these ways, but contrary to what this text [v.3] actually shows it to be)

... I'm asking you, which does the text here in 1Th5:3 actually show...

iow, what did Paul actually say when using this word (G5604): the "PLURAL" or "SINGULAR" form... WHICH OF THESE? (I supplied the links so you can see for yourself);

--Additionally, I'm asking you if you agree that this is the same "G5604" word that Jesus had also used (Matt24:8 / Mk13:8), yes or no
(and did He use the SINGULAR or PLURAL form of the word)?

I'm asking about THE WORD that Paul used in 1Th5:3 ("G5604"), and whether you agree that Jesus used the SAME word (Matt24:8 / Mk13:8 - G5604) or you don't agree that He used this same word...

...and IN WHAT FORM (of that word) Paul used (in comparison to what form Jesus used of that word), whether SINGULAR or PLURAL (in 1Th5:3)

It's a straightforward question (or two). = )

I trust this re-statement of my post helps clarify what I'm asking of you[?] (about the biblical text; you can refer to the LINKS I supplied in my previous post, where this info is provided plainly

)

[after that, we can discuss further, if you like... about how this relates to this thread's present Subject]

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 27, 2024

@Pilgrimshope , ^

TheDivineWatermark said:

Here again are the LINKS where those answers can be found / confirmed.

Hope that helps.

GaryA · Feb 27, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

Yes, that is the way life goes - we continually discover that what we think we know is not necessarily the case. And, discussion can certainly help us "iron out" what is true and what is not. All I was saying was that I believe you are on the right track with what you said in the post I quoted your statement from... (post #9)

Pilgrimshope · Feb 28, 2024

GRACE_ambassador said:

This is why we don’t interact very much … we believe two different “ gospels “

Pilgrimshope · Feb 28, 2024

GaryA said:

I understand brother I think just being in a place searching for biblical truth like a discussion forum puts most of us on the right track is all I meant. I think you are also and even others who disagree also on a good path even if we all don’t see the same path yet discussion can sort of become a lamp post that highlights to both parties where the path actually is

B5 · Feb 28, 2024

The thing that is misunderstood is that there are 2 tribulations.

1.) Lucifer/satans trib.: which is the 7 years written in Dan 9:27, which HAS BEEN SHORTENED TO 5 MONTHS as stated in Matthew..(the 7 year time has been shortened otherwise no flesh would be saved) .
This 7 years (shortened to 5 months) is satans trib. IT IS NOT "THE GREAT TRIBULATION".

2.) THE 5 MONTHS(satans trib) IS THEN Followed then by God's Tribulation/WRATH. which is THE GREAT TRIBULATION ... THE DAY OF THE LORD... THE 1000 YEAR MELLENIUM.. THE WRATH OF GOD

Everyone goes thru the 1st trib./5 months.
Which begins when lucifer/satan is kicked out of Heaven TO EARTH along with the fallen angels., at the WOE OF THE 5TH TRUMPET.
(There are 3 WOE Trumpets).. woe of 5th, 6th ARE THE 5 MONTHS OF SATAN's trib.

THEN "after" the 5 months is the 7th trumpet, the "gathering" when Jesus comes at the 2nd advent and THEN the "wrath" or "the great trib." begins.

WOE OF THE 5TH TRUMPET:
Satan kicked out for 5 months TO EARTH literally, and this woe lasts 2.5 months of the 5 month total. This is satan's "DRAGON ROLE"
REV 12:7 AND ON into Rev 13
Dan 9:27
Dan 11:21 thru 30
Rev 13(DRAGON ROLE)

This is the 1st beast "political beast one world system" set up by 10 of the fallen angels under the throne of lucifer/satan
(satan stays behind the scenes but the fallen angels take orders from him.)

This political beast receives the deadly wound as not all nations go along with this one world political beast system

THEN

WOE OF THE 6TH TRUMPET:
The last 2.5 months (of the 5 months) that satan is here where he is in his ANTICHRIST "ROLE"(antichrist means instead of Christ)
DANIEL 11:31-40
Rev 9
Rev 13

Satan then makes his appearance by going to Jerusalem and claims to be Jesus in his antichrist "role" so that the world stops fighting the one world political system.
He does all kinds of miracles so people get deceived into thinking he is Jesus.
He then sets up the "one world religious system" along with the political system. Everyone has to worship him (which is taking the mark) of servitude to him and worshipping him as Jesus. This is the great apostacy when christians worship satan instead of Jesus.2 Thess 2..His system is Babylon/confusion

WOE OF THE 7TH TRUMPET:
True Jesus returns at the 7th (last) trumpet which is at the end of the 5month test of satan
Daniel 11:40 to end
Jesus comes with the armies of Heaven(the "cloud" spoken of in 1 Thess 4).. Paul spoke "street greek".. a "cloud" is a group of people

"MEETING IN THE AIR":.. means we are all then in our supernatural bodies... NO MORE FLESH AT THE 7TH TRUMPET. "air" does NOT mean in the "sky" or atmosphere as in 1 Thess 4

There is no more "flesh" at the 7th trumpet and the GREAT TRIBULATION begins... the 1000 years. Day of the Lord.
Since we are all in our supernatural bodies, we KNOW everything, and those who did not repent and worshiped satan MOTB ... if they did not repent before the 7th trumpet, they will have "mortal souls" for the 1000 years (liable to die souls) and will then be tested again at the end of thee 1000 year great trib. when satan is again released to test them.

The "1st resurrection" into eternal life(receiving immortal soul) is at the 7th trumpet when Jesus returns and "GATHERS" US. WE ARE "GATHERED" AT THE 7TH TRUMPET (AND NOT BEFORE).Anyone who is still following satan has to wait the 1000 years for the 2nd resurrection into eternal life for their immortal soul if they overcome satan at the end of the 1000 years..(Great white throne judgement).

THE 7 YEARS OF DANIEL 9:27 IS NOT "THE GREAT TRIB".. 7years is shortened to 5 months test (which is God using lucifer/satan to test everyone) PRIOR to the 7th trumpet, which is when Jesus comes to "gather" us after the 2 witnesses are killed.

The apostacy is the "falling away" at the 6th trumpet (2 Thess 2). Some Christians are deceived into following satan when he claims to be Jesus.

Anyone "flying " out of here before the 7th trumpet will be going with satan, not Jesus. Because Jesus comes at the 7th trumpet.
It is a test and God uses satan and the fallen angels to test people for 5 months when they are here on earth after being kicked out of Heaven by Michael..

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 28, 2024

Pilgrimshope said:

Yes, and I'm endeavoring to point out some very pertinent points regarding that passage, so we can have a solid discussion about what Paul is expressing there (if you wish to).

Do you think that Pre-tribbers disregard all scripture except for, say, 1Th4:17 and 2Th2:1?

We don't.

Many of us (and I know this is true of myself) have studied the subject deeply for many, many years, and have taken ALL of scripture into account when studying this subject out.

We aren't simply conducting the "stab-and-grab" method.

Note carefully that it is the TIME-PERIOD that arrives "as a thief IN THE NIGHT"; Not Jesus Himself.

but whenever Scripture declares such a phrase when speaking of JESUS HIMSELF / HIS OWN PERSONAL PRESENCE, it NEVER adds the phrase "IN THE NIGHT"... It just states (factually), "[I come] LIKE A THIEF. [PERIOD!]". NO "IN THE NIGHT" phrase is ADDED when declaring this about JESUS' OWN PERSONAL COMING. (Check that out!

)

[the "IN THE NIGHT" time-period is the TRIBULATION-PERIOD ASPECT OF the "DOTL"... when JUDGMENTS will be unfolding upon the earth, over those 7 years]

"IN WHICH / IN THE WHICH" is speaking of a VERY LENGTHY TIME-PERIOD, in which a great MANY THINGS will transpire!

(It is NOT speaking of merely "a singular 24-hour 'day'" kind of "day"... NO!)

I always recommend that the readers of this passage ALSO read the TWO CHAPTERS of Isaiah 34-35 to ascertain why Peter is using Isa34:4 in this passage (Peter is not simply EXTRACTING a singular OT verse [34:4] and disregarding the entire context he's quoting it from, i.e. the CONTEXT being those TWO CHAPTERS).

Peter here is NOT referencing merely "a singular 24-hour 'day'" kind of "day" (again, view BOTH CHPTS of Isa34-35, for aid in understanding why Peter is drawing from this OT passage, here).

"The Day of the Lord" (EARTHLY-located time-period) includes all three of the following:

--the 7-yr Tribulation Period [JUDGMENTS] unfolding upon the earth (the "IN THE NIGHT" aspect);

--Christ's Second Coming to the earth (the "SUN of righteousness ARISE" aspect); AND

--His 1000 year Millennial Kingdom age (the "reign... GLORIOUSLY" aspect)

ALL THREE of these ^ are what make of the time-period known as "the Day of the Lord" (it is VERY LENGTHY!)

Again, it is NOT merely "a singular 24-hour 'day'," but a VERY LENGTHY TIME-PERIOD, in which MUCH will transpire within it.

It arrives / commences well-prior to His Second Coming to the earth (indeed, 7 years / 2520 days prior).

TheDivineWatermark · Feb 28, 2024

^ To go along with that post ^ ,

Here is another "IN WHICH" verse that is also referring to a VERY LENGTHY TIME-PERIOD:

"because He has fixed [/established] a day [not merely 'a singular 24-hr day' kind of 'day'] in which He will judge [govern / rule] the world in righteousness through [/in] a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by [/in] raising Him from the dead.” - Acts 17:31nasb

Evmur · Feb 29, 2024

GRACE_ambassador said:

pardon me but I thought you had stop replying, you can find 10, 000 scriptures that you think prove pretrib rap but Jesus said after the tribulation they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds.

love in Jesus.

B5 · Feb 29, 2024

Jesus is not a "thief"... so we know that He is coming "LIKE " a thief to "those" who think He is already here.

So, to who is He coming to like a thief??? Those who got deceived by satan into thinking satan is Jesus when satan is here in his role of antichrist(instead of Christ)

5 and 6 come before 7...The True Jesus comes at the LAST trumpet.

Lucifer/satan is coming here to earth at the Woe of the 5th trumpet. He is here 5 months.
THe 7 years has been shortened to 5 months which being split into two 2.5 month periods... the woe of the 5th and 6th trumpet (lucifer is here on earth)

"A day is as a thousand years" as said in Peter. The wrath of God is the great tribulation 1000 years... The day of the Lord.. the mellenium.

The 7th trumpet is the 2nd advent, coming of the True Jesus. Woe of the 7th trumpet.

Understand the 3 WOE trumpets

Evmur · Feb 29, 2024

PennEd said:

This is pretty close to what will happen:

Let's 'ave a look at this
No. 10
You say the rap must precede the Antichrist, but Paul says that day will not come unless the man of rebellion is first revealed. Whom Christ slays by the brightness of His appearing and by the breath of His nostrils. So Christ's appearing is the END of Antichrist's career not the beginning. His career was to oppose everything called god or every object worshipped as god. That is bad news for Christians. He will dedicate himself to destroying every trace and vestige of religion from the world. He will instigate a program of persecution which will make Hitler's holocaust pale into insignificance. Where children will give up the parents to death and parents the children.

Jesus warned us about this, this is the test which is coming upon everyone who dwells upon the earth. This is the great end-times persecution or THE GREAT TRIBULATION.

Jesus said "in the world you will have tribulation" that's where tribulation comes from. Paul said "through great tribulation must we enter the Kingdom of God" he was talking about the persecution the Thessos were suffering.

Tribulation is not the Wrath of God.

Once Jesus returns there will be no more Antichrist, no more beast, no more mark of the beast, no more persecution ... after a little mopping up operation lasting 7 years [which is what Revelations is all about] Jesus reigns.

no. 12.
You say only those looking for Him will see Him but John says every eye shall see Him, the kings of the earth will take fright and cry to the mountains to fall upon them.

The dead in Christ will be first to rise ... was they watchin an waitin? we'll ALL go everyone bought with blood will go.

The last judgement is at the end of the 1, 000 years.

PennEd · Feb 29, 2024

Can you repost this the right way please?
If I answer, it will just continue to cascade as a messed up post.
Thanks

The church, Paul agrees, Post Tribulation.

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