The Dangers of the Hebrew Roots Messianic Movement
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Nope. . .you are absolutely right!
The NT word of God states that all food is clean (Mk 7:19; Ro 14:4, 17, 20; 1Co 8:8, 10:25;
1Tim 4:3-5; Heb 9:9-10; Col 2:16-19).
The issue is belief or unbelief of the NT word of God, the issue is not what it states.
T
timberdoodle
Guest
I love Bacon. Wonder if we can travel back to earth from the other side for a few strips of it.
Blessings
Timber
I understand what you're saying...but you're in the shallow end and I'm trying to ease you into the deep waters. We're not in elementary school anymore. And with someone who studies constantly I shouldn't have to explain to them that Zechariah 6 was indeed a prophecy of Christ in the Melchizedek priesthood; that High priest Joshua indeed was a figure of that priesthood (just like the king of Salem)...but by your logic, you say "No it's not a prophecy because Christ wasn't a Levite but a Judahite, and we call him Jesus whereas that man's name was Joshua, so this prophecy doesn't apply to him." In other words, I'm trying to share (deeper) meaning yet you're stuck on the surface pointing out differences in appearance. I don't understand why these basic things I'm sharing with you are so hard to grasp. This is basic stuff.
Before Paul's letters were canonized as scripture, a lot of what he shared in those letters wasn't yet known or understood by the believing public...so where did that deeper knowledge come from, but from constant study and prayer? There's little that interests me in this world so in my free time I study and pray and study and pray some more. I don't follow this group or that group, because I'm not lazy. I don't tote the same doctrine simply because it's a talking point of a denomination, because that's sheepish. I only support doctrine that is revealed *in ALL of (original) scripture* (in context) to be the truth. I stand on Christ's instructions that says "ask and will receive; seek will find; knock and the door will be open to [me]." as these are his promises...and he doesn't change his mind on his promises.
lol I'm almost expecting someone to say, "that's not what Matthew 7:7 says" (because I changed the appearance of the text even though the meaning hasn't changed).
But you're suggesting I'm making stuff up and not being sincere, all because I had an answer for your challenges that you assumed were unanswerable...but could it be that I just know some things you don't yet know? It's not the end of the world if that's true.
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The original contention: God said he doesn't change. I believe what scripture says. I stand so firmly on that belief I stake my life on it and welcome any challenge that attempts to prove otherwise. (I don't want to misrepresent you but) you appear to believe God *does* change (contrary to what he said), which is a HUGE problem for all of us if that's the case...so could you answer these questions for me?
Isaiah 55:10-11
In terms of the word from his mouth, was God:
a) True in what he said
b) A liar
Numbers 23:19
In terms of not being like us and changing his mind, was God:
a) True in what he said
b) A liar
Malachi 3:6
In terms of his character not changing and what he sets out to do, was God:
a) True in what he said
b) A liar
You've frequently glossed over my points & avoided my questions and then accuse *me* of glossing over, when I've actually done the opposite, Herose. Note a definition of gloss.
Gloss: a. A brief explanatory note or translation of a difficult or technical expression usually inserted in the margin or between lines of a text or manuscript.
I haven't glossed over anything. I address everything you throw in front of me in LONG posts. I delve into the meaning of words and phrases, read passages before and after cited verses, cross-reference other passages, and take approx. 1hr to answer your questions...and yet you give me 2 short sentences that don't even address my counter question...but you accuse *me* of glossing over
So then with what you JUST pointed out...does Eunuchs need to be part of the EARTHLY kingdom of Israel, if they are part of a greater kingdom? And do Eunuchs needs to be part of the physical/earthly temple if they are part of the greater temple of heaven (i.e. Christ)? If you answered "no" to each of the previous questions, is it not true that God perfectly honored his word to both the Eunuchs AND to the earthly congregation of Israel?
I have to admit, you make me laugh.
I well aware that Joshua was a type of Christ; but he wasn't of the order of Melchizedek.
Note a definition of glossing over (which is the idiom I used and the meaning I intended)
This is exactly what you're doing by ignoring the fact that the text says FOREVER, and instead focusing on the 10 generation thing.
Just reading Romans again. I thought this was a good statement about the law and Faith in God.
"[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— [SUP]22 [/SUP]the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. ' Romans 3:21-22
The law and the prophets bear witness to it, BUT the righteousness of God has been manifested APART from the law - through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe!!!!
I hope this settles the discussion once and for all (Why on earth would I believe these Judiazers would simply accept the Word of God in the New Testament?? Just praying and hoping!)
"[SUP]21 [/SUP]But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— [SUP]22 [/SUP]the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. ' Romans 3:21-22
The law and the prophets bear witness to it, BUT the righteousness of God has been manifested APART from the law - through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe!!!!
I hope this settles the discussion once and for all (Why on earth would I believe these Judiazers would simply accept the Word of God in the New Testament?? Just praying and hoping!)
lol the "10 generation" is not a "thing". But Here you go...You won't accept it anyway lol.
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Deuteronomy 23:3
ד לֹא-יָבֹא עַמּוֹנִי וּמוֹאָבִי, בִּקְהַל יְהוָה: גַּם דּוֹר עֲשִׂירִי, לֹא-יָבֹא לָהֶם
lō- [not] yā-ḇō [(do) enter] ‘am-mō-w-nî [Ammonite] ū-mō-w-’ā-ḇî [Moabite] biq-hal [into congregation] Yah-weh; gam [yea] dō-wr [generation/time] ‘ă-śî-rî, [(to) tenth] lō- [not] yā-ḇō [(do) enter] lā-hem [like] biq-hal [into congregation] Yah-weh ‘aḏ-[until] ‘ō-w-lām [ever].
Not. enter. Ammonite. or Moabite. into congregation. Yah. yes. generation. to 10th. not. enter. like. into congregation. Yah. until. ever.
ד לֹא-יָבֹא עַמּוֹנִי וּמוֹאָבִי, בִּקְהַל יְהוָה: גַּם דּוֹר עֲשִׂירִי, לֹא-יָבֹא לָהֶם
lō- [not] yā-ḇō [(do) enter] ‘am-mō-w-nî [Ammonite] ū-mō-w-’ā-ḇî [Moabite] biq-hal [into congregation] Yah-weh; gam [yea] dō-wr [generation/time] ‘ă-śî-rî, [(to) tenth] lō- [not] yā-ḇō [(do) enter] lā-hem [like] biq-hal [into congregation] Yah-weh ‘aḏ-[until] ‘ō-w-lām [ever].
Not. enter. Ammonite. or Moabite. into congregation. Yah. yes. generation. to 10th. not. enter. like. into congregation. Yah. until. ever.
The word is NOT "forever" but two words "Ad" and "Olam". "Ad" in a timing preposition translated as "until" 365 times in scripture as in Genesis 3:19 and Genesis 8:5, where it's specifically matched with a time frame just like in Deuteronomy 23:3.
Genesis 8:5
"ad" can also mean "as far as, even to, up to, while, with the goal"; used as a *conjunction*.
Thus the Hebrew passage reads:
Do not EVER (let) an Ammonite or Moabite into the congregation of Yah; YES UNTIL the 10th generation do not (let "the like"; i.e. "any of them") enter into the congregation of Yah.
OR
Do not (let) an Ammonite or Moabite into the congregation of Yah; YES UNTIL the 10th generation do not (let "the like"; i.e. "any of them") enter into the congregation of Yah, EVER.
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Like I said, God does not change.
Now will you answer my questions?
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Olam means vanishing point, but typically means forever.
What questions are you talking about?
I forgot to look at the LXX. It also has forever, i.e., into the age. That's hardly referring to 10 generations.
Nevermind Herose. You actually just answered them in your reply.
T
timberdoodle
Guest
Yes, but no where near your caliber. I have great aspirations, but alas the flesh is weak.
I can show you many more examples.
For I [GOD] lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever (εις τον αιώνα). Deuteronomy 32:40
An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever (εις τον αιώνα). Deuteronomy 23:3
An Ammonite or Moabite shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to their tenth generation shall they not enter into the congregation of the LORD for ever (εις τον αιώνα). Deuteronomy 23:3
Well, it seems to me that you're having to torque and twist to get it to be the same.
No one had to die that ascended the mountain.
They didn't even have to die when they saw the LORD.
And "failure" to draw closer to the mountain is not a picture of failure to draw closer to God,
since drawing closer to the mountain would have been disobedience.
Other than the prefigures in persons, such as Moses, Aaron (High Priest), Joshua, David,
Solomon, or Job and Joseph, I don't see any Biblical warrant for "paralleling" anything
other than what Scripture itself presents as pre-figures in the ceremonies of the Mosaic law.
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Exodus 24:5-8 is twisting and torquing scripture? Before Exodus 24:5-8 no one could touch the mountain...immediately after Exodus 24:5-8 we read of them ascending the mountain...a death was required in order to ascend the mountain.
Deuteronomy wasn't originally written in Greek because it's part of the Torah. See for yourself what it says in Hebrew.
Yet the LXX is a snapshot of the understanding of the Hebrew scrolls at that time. Like I said, I can show you other examples.
No...it's not. It's unnecessary. There's no need to read through a Greek filter (and risk transliterations and errors) when you can just go straight to the Hebrew. Even though they deny Christ, the first 5 books and prophetic books are preserved by the Jews.