The Difference

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NetChaplain

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2018
735
259
63
#1
There are believers who think that when a Christian sins it’s intentional or willful. Isn’t the primary difference in one reborn the fact that one will never want to sin (Heb 10:26)? Though we know that one cannot live without sinning, it is strongly against the desire of the Christian to sin (Psa 97:10; Pro 8:13; Jude 1:23)! What one must know is that those reborn still possess the sin nature (old man - 1Jo 1:8), and the sin that is now committed is from the old man and not from the new man (Ro 7:17, 20). The main difference between the natural man and the saved man is that there is no desire to sin in our new man!

Paul declared the dichotomy of the Christian’s two natures in Romans 7:14-25 (only Christians have both natures, as Christ had only a divine nature and unbelievers have only the sin nature). “For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate (not want to do), that I do.” Here Paul is admitting he still sins
and it’s evident he does not desire to sin! Also notice the usage of the word “captive” in v 23. This is used by Paul to describe something that is against his will and desire, as one who is in a prison.

The main theme is that, “Where your treasure is, there will your heart be also” (Mat 6:21). What one has in the heart is what determines their good or evil, as “A good man out of the good treasure of the heart brings forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth evil things” (Mat 12:35). There is only evil or good within the heart—never both. God will not allow admixture! What the believer ultimately intends in the heart is what God uses to determine everything!

The heart represents what one is ultimately. There will be evil in the life of a believer but not intentionally, because ultimately the believer wants what God wants (Phl 2:13). Conversely, unbelievers have only evil in their heart (Tit 1:15), being “dominated” by the “old man” (Ro 6:14); and sin’s dominion is its ability to cause you to want to sin. It’s not that we sin it’s, “do we want to sin”? With the new nature we do not desire sin, but with the old nature we sin, but never intentionally (e.g. doing something out of anger or wrath in not what a Christian wants to do - Jas 1:20). We may impulsively sin out of anger, jealousy, envy, etc., i.e. sins that aren’t on purpose or with planning and intentional knowledge, which are not the same as “willful” sins that are “presumptuous” (Num 15:30).

Though the old man is a part of the believer, the believer has no part with the old man in his new nature, for God has separated believers in position with Christ from the sin nature (Ro 8:9). Therefore, regardless of the believer’s “condition” (impulsive sinning, temporary discouragement, etc.), the believers “position” is incapable of ever being affected, as faith and salvation are permanent (Rom 11:29). How does God know for certain that one reborn will never apostatize?—by “Working in you to both desire and do of His good pleasure!” If one apostatizes it manifests there was no rebirth (1Jo 2:19); hence the phrase “unto the end,” as only the saved will do, to manifest themselves reborn.

After glorifying Himself, everything God does is for our “sakes” (2Co 4:15), and in my opinion, the most needed thing for the saved is encouraging one another in the Scriptures. We have everything that pertains to “life and godliness” (2Pe 1:3), and thus merely requiring the continuous “exhortation” of one another (Heb 10:25) in the “love” of Christ (Jhn 15:12).
NC
 

timemeddler

Active member
Jul 13, 2023
458
204
43
#2
I think your on the right track. I often find myself thinking, is this a sin? I don't want to sin, but it happens. sometimes I knew it was a sin, and I regret it. Others I have to think about a bit. If I was completely sinning willfully I wouldn't be debating it before hand. As for the type mentioned in hebrews, it describes such a person as considering the blood of christ as unclean, a very extreme case. I'd say that person is probably doing it on purpose out of spite since he seems to have rejected the faith completely. Willful, intentional, possibly pre-meditated with no regret afterwards or asking for forgiveness.
 

NetChaplain

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2018
735
259
63
#3
I think your on the right track. I often find myself thinking, is this a sin? I don't want to sin, but it happens. sometimes I knew it was a sin, and I regret it. Others I have to think about a bit. If I was completely sinning willfully I wouldn't be debating it before hand.
Hi, and appreciate your reply and comments! I also think one who is concerned whether or not they are sinning has God "working " in him (Phl 2:13).
As for the type mentioned in Hebrews, it describes such a person as considering the blood of christ as unclean, a very extreme case. I'd say that person is probably doing it on purpose out of spite since he seems to have rejected the faith completely. Willful, intentional, possibly pre-meditated with no regret afterwards or asking for forgiveness.
Yes, if you continue to "sin willfully" (Heb 10:26) I'd say you never had faith; because it's my understanding that faith and salvation are permanent! What an encouraging truth concerning eternal security, which many are not understanding. Thankfully, believing or not believing this truth does not affect one's salvation, but keeps one from growing in the Lod Jesus (Eph 4:15) and enjoying the freedom of knowing your's is in heaven!!
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
27,686
9,620
113
#4

Yes, if you continue to "sin willfully" (Heb 10:26) I'd say you never had faith; because it's my understanding that faith and salvation are permanent! What an encouraging truth concerning eternal security, which many are not understanding. Thankfully, believing or not believing this truth does not affect one's salvation, but keeps one from growing in the Lod Jesus (Eph 4:15) and enjoying the freedom of knowing your's is in heaven!!
This denies human free will and denies that people can change their minds. If one in the faith changes his mind and walks away from God, this assumes he was faking it all along.

This also denies Hebrews 6:4-6 and Ezekiel 33:12-16. And a few others that I don't have time to look up right now because I am on lunch break.

tldr: what you said sure disagrees with a whole lot of the Bible.
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
27,686
9,620
113
#5

Yes, if you continue to "sin willfully" (Heb 10:26) I'd say you never had faith; because it's my understanding that faith and salvation are permanent! What an encouraging truth concerning eternal security, which many are not understanding. Thankfully, believing or not believing this truth does not affect one's salvation, but keeps one from growing in the Lod Jesus (Eph 4:15) and enjoying the freedom of knowing your's is in heaven!!
It's amazing how unbiblical viewpoints can melt away when they hit too close to home.

What will happen when somebody you care about walks away from God? Will you casually write him off as somebody who was faking all along? Will you claim he is still saved, despite all the sin he is indulging in, but going through a troubled time?
 

NetChaplain

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2018
735
259
63
#6
This denies human free will and denies that people can change their minds.
Wanted to let you know that I have always appreciated your replies, they are sincere in my opinion. But we can be quite wrong in much of our understanding, which of course always requires continuous searching of truth and patience!

When God changes you in rebirth, He makes certain that you will always desire His ways (Phl 2:13). Thus one cannot walk away from God, he will never desire it. Passages that show one leaving God explains, often with difficulty, that they were never saved, or they would have stayed with Him (1Jo 2:19).

This also denies Hebrews 6:4-6.
These passages are of the same thought as Heb 10:26, both of which are known as "hyperbolic expression;" e.g. they describe that one cannot be saved twice, i.e., salvation is only once, because it's permanent.

The crux of the Heb 6 passage is that it's not like one could be renewed "again unto repentance" if "they fall away." This answers to why salvation is the same as the Lord's death, needed only "once" (Heb 10:10) and never needs repeated; unlike the Mass in Catholicism, the clergy thinks Christ is repetitiously sacrificed, as the bread and wine literally becomes the Blood and Body of Christ through transubstantiation; Lutherans believe Christ doesn't inherit the Eucharist but instead accompanies the emblems, both are false doctrine, which teaches against Scripture and therefore are anti-Christian.[/QUOTE]
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
27,686
9,620
113
#7
Wanted to let you know that I have always appreciated your replies, they are sincere in my opinion. But we can be quite wrong in much of our understanding, which of course always requires continuous searching of truth and patience!

When God changes you in rebirth, He makes certain that you will always desire His ways (Phl 2:13). Thus one cannot walk away from God, he will never desire it. Passages that show one leaving God explains, often with difficulty, that they were never saved, or they would have stayed with Him (1Jo 2:19).


These passages are of the same thought as Heb 10:26, both of which are known as "hyperbolic expression;" e.g. they describe that one cannot be saved twice, i.e., salvation is only once, because it's permanent.

The crux of the Heb 6 passage is that it's not like one could be renewed "again unto repentance" if "they fall away." This answers to why salvation is the same as the Lord's death, needed only "once" (Heb 10:10) and never needs repeated; unlike the Mass in Catholicism, the clergy thinks Christ is repetitiously sacrificed, as the bread and wine literally becomes the Blood and Body of Christ through transubstantiation; Lutherans believe Christ doesn't inherit the Eucharist but instead accompanies the emblems, both are false doctrine, which teaches against Scripture and therefore are anti-Christian.
So you're sticking with "People who walk away from God were never really saved. They were just faking it."

Okay then. Maybe you won't have anything happen to you that teaches you different. I hope you don't. But a lot of people do have disasters happen to them, things that shake their faith. Not their belief that there IS a God, but their faith that God loves them and takes care of them.

When your wife gets cancer, when you pray for her healing, when your church and everybody you know and everyone you can call up on Facebook prays for her, when you honestly believe she will be healed... And she dies... It gets really easy to lose your faith that God loves you or even knows you exist.

Shoot, you don't even have to have tragedy. Ask Solomon how the heart can get pulled away. Ask five out of the seven churches mentioned in Revelation. A lot of them started out sincere and on fire, but more than two thirds of them started falling away from God.

Believing backsliders were never really saved, believing they were just faking it all this time, it may help you rationalize their backsliding. But there are MANY examples, in the Bible and in modern life, that contradict you.

I dunno. Maybe it will take a tragedy for you to find out how easy it can be to get upset with God. But I hope not.

But there sure are a lot of once-faithful people who HAVE found it out.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,388
6,732
113
#8
So you're sticking with "People who walk away from God were never really saved. They were just faking it."

Okay then. Maybe you won't have anything happen to you that teaches you different. I hope you don't. But a lot of people do have disasters happen to them, things that shake their faith. Not their belief that there IS a God, but their faith that God loves them and takes care of them.

When your wife gets cancer, when you pray for her healing, when your church and everybody you know and everyone you can call up on Facebook prays for her, when you honestly believe she will be healed... And she dies... It gets really easy to lose your faith that God loves you or even knows you exist.

Shoot, you don't even have to have tragedy. Ask Solomon how the heart can get pulled away. Ask five out of the seven churches mentioned in Revelation. A lot of them started out sincere and on fire, but more than two thirds of them started falling away from God.

Believing backsliders were never really saved, believing they were just faking it all this time, it may help you rationalize their backsliding. But there are MANY examples, in the Bible and in modern life, that contradict you.

I dunno. Maybe it will take a tragedy for you to find out how easy it can be to get upset with God. But I hope not.

But there sure are a lot of once-faithful people who HAVE found it out.
my cousin's husband was a strong believer . had been for decades. then, in his early 60's, he had a heart attack.

i went and saw him in the hospital, and he was really upset and confused as to why the Lord would allow that to happen.

so, his faith was shaken to it's core, and i have not talked to him in a while, so not sure where he is in faith now..
 

NetChaplain

Well-known member
Nov 21, 2018
735
259
63
#9
But a lot of people do have disasters happen to them, things that shake their faith. Not their belief that there IS a God, but their faith that God loves them and takes care of them..
Of course believing there is a God doesn't save, and faith that appears to move away from God is not true faith, regardless of any situation. The only way faith works is always putting God above family and friends!