The Doctrine of Christ and Walking As He Walked

[Skinski7]

When Jesus tells us to abide in Him is that works? Or is it CONTINUED dependence on HIM? Remember Jesus plainly said APART FROM ME YOU CAN DO NOTHING.

A work is simply the engagement of a task. To engage in something means we have to make an effort to do it. In other words a work is "being active" as opposed to being "passive" and doing nothing.

When the Bible speaks of "not of works" there is a context.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Salvation is via...

1. Grace through faith = We are God's workmanship as opposed to being our own workmanship.

The grace that brings salvation is what gives us direction.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

If we look up Grace in the Greek we see...

charis
khar'-ece
From G5463; graciousness (as gratifying), of manner or act (abstract or concrete; literal, figurative or spiritual; especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life; including gratitude): - acceptable, benefit, favour, gift, grace (-ious), joy liberality, pleasure, thank (-s, -worthy).

Take note it says "especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life."

Paul described the mechanism of workmanship thus...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

"Being made the righteousness of God in Him" is synonymous to the "abide in me and I will abide in you" that Jesus taught. In other words we plug ourselves into God through repentance and faith whereby we are wholeheartedly yielded to His divine influence upon our hearts.

Paul describes this all as "working together with God" and asserts that without this working principle or dynamic then grace is received in vain. In other words, if we do not submit ourselves to God and yield wholeheartedly (cooperate) then the grace of God is not effectual in saving our soul. Without the dynamic of "grace through faith" no transformation of the human heart can take place.

"Not of works" is a reference to deeds done apart from this working dynamic. One could obey outwardly the entire Law of Moses yet without faith it is worthless. The issue is our heart. The issue is the inward man. The outward man simply bears the fruit of the inward.

The false teachers have redefined "not of works" to mean "do nothing except trust." Thus they disconnect "faith" from "obedience to the truth" whereby a soul is made pure. This is why they will always argue in favour of ongoing wickedness in salvation when pressed by careful questioning. It is very easy to expose these people.

Grace does this...

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

The quickening is also mentioned by Paul here...

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The quickening is synonymous with the refreshing described in Acts...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The new birth is thus a result of "grace through faith." We wholeheartedly trust and yield to the grace of God and the result is the transformation of our hearts via the power of God. This is what "saved by grace through faith" means. It is speaking of the dynamic which brings total transformation.

The false teachers redefine the terms. They teach that faith is merely "trust," ie. mental acknowledgement of some facts. The "facts" they teach is generally that one is "born a sinner" and that "Jesus is the sinners substitute." To be saved one just has to admit their sinfulness and trust that the substitution was made. It is through this means that they convince people to believe they are "positionally saved" whilst they still serve unrighteousness (sin you will and sin you must - ie a perversion of 1Joh 1:8). There is no saving dynamic in that message, Satan has removed it, redefined the terms and presented a hoax.

 

[Skinski7]

Well you've got some of it right, anyways.

Now if you could just learn what Grace is, why it is so important and why it is the weak who need it, then some of your error could be eliminated, maybe all of it.

If you think it is your obedience that has caused your righteousness then you are still very far away.

Romans 5:15-17
[SUP]15 [/SUP]But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
[SUP]16 [/SUP]And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
[SUP]17 [/SUP]For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

The Bible teaches "obedience unto righteousness" (Rom 6:16). We have to work together with God in order to be made the righteousness of God in Him (2Cor 5:21-6:1)

Obedience to the truth through the Spirit is what purifies the soul.

1Pe 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Obedience to the truth through the Spirit ----------> Purification of the soul -----------> Genuine love.

If there is no obedience to the truth through the Spirit then it is impossible to love one another with a pure heart fervently.

I outlined what grace is in my previous post. The Bible is very clear on the matter. Grace is simply the free provision of God provided to us by His graciousness. It is by faith that grace is made effectual to the saving of the soul. This is why Jesus taught that we must be doers of the word and not hearers only. The word is what makes us clean, it is what makes us pure. Look at this statement of Jesus...

Joh 15:3 Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Joh 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
Joh 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

I am not wrong in teaching that obedience to Jesus in mandatory. It is essential we keep His commandments. Jesus was a preacher of righteousness and He taught the doctrine according to godliness. It is essential that we wholeheartedly submit to that doctrine lest we perish in our sins. James put it like this...

Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

The service of unrighteousness has to be forsaken. We have to be DOERS of the word and not hearers only. It is in the DOING that we are transformed. We cannot be doers without laying aside all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, hence repentance is mandatory. This is what the Bible teaches throughout.

Obedience unto righteousness - Rom 6:16
Righteousness unto holiness - Rom 6:19
Holiness unto eternal life - Rom 6:22

Without holiness no-one will see the Lord - Heb 12:14
The pure in heart will see God - Mat 5:8

The Bible is so clear on these things.

 

[Skinski7]

This passage...

Rom 5:15 But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
Rom 5:16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
Rom 5:17 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

...is not in opposition with anything I wrote. It is in full agreement. The gift of righteousness reigns in our lives when we abide in Jesus Christ. It is the Spirit of life IN Jesus Christ which sets us free from the law of sin and death, whereby the righteousness of the law is fulfilled in us.

The gift of God is eternal life THROUGH Jesus Christ. We have to abide IN Him and that is inclusive of wholehearted obedience to the doctrine He taught, the doctrine according to godliness. Hence we must be DOERS as opposed to being hearers only.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Obedience UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS , is having Faith in His Son's completed Work, very very Simple... the Obedience is to BELIEVE.. if you think your works are his standard unto Obedience then ye greatly err!.... How does One Believe who Christ Truly is? by Him revealing His Unmerited goodness to the sinner, which leads to repentance and belief.. thos Totaly Sovereign by the Hand of God... not the self righteousness of man in regligion! . so many want to climb up another way, thru there works, these are Thieves and Robbers indeed

 

[Skinski7]

Obedience UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS , is having Faith in His Son's completed Work

Obedience unto righteousness is having faith in a completed work? Where does the Bible teach that. You are twisting Paul by saying that. Look at what Paul wrote...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The terms "yield" and "obey" are in that statement. There is nothing about trusting in a completed work. We belong to whom we serve. Service involves ACTION. Paul does not say anything about merely trusting in some completed work. Furthermore Paul wrote the following...

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

That is the context of "obedience unto righteousness." Obedience unto righteousness means not letting sin reign in our mortal bodies. We are not to yield our members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin.

Is that really a difficult concept to accept? I would think the rejection of such a concept is motivated by a love of sin whereby one refuses to repent.

 

[Bowhunter2394]

Obedience unto righteousness is having faith in a completed work? Where does the Bible teach that. You are twisting Paul by saying that. Look at what Paul wrote...

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

The terms "yield" and "obey" are in that statement. There is nothing about trusting in a completed work. We belong to whom we serve. Service involves ACTION. Paul does not say anything about merely trusting in some completed work. Furthermore Paul wrote the following...

Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.

That is the context of "obedience unto righteousness." Obedience unto righteousness means not letting sin reign in our mortal bodies. We are not to yield our members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin.

Is that really a difficult concept to accept? I would think the rejection of such a concept is motivated by a love of sin whereby one refuses to repent.

the Whole New Testament speak of Salvation by Grace thru Faith... something YE have yet to be enlightened on.. so very very evident! sorry.. carry on wayward son!

 

[SarahM777]

Obedience UNTO RIGHTEOUSNESS , is having Faith in His Son's completed Work, very very Simple... the Obedience is to BELIEVE.. if you think your works are his standard unto Obedience then ye greatly err!.... How does One Believe who Christ Truly is? by Him revealing His Unmerited goodness to the sinner, which leads to repentance and belief.. thos Totaly Sovereign by the Hand of God... not the self righteousness of man in regligion! . so many want to climb up another way, thru there works, these are Thieves and Robbers indeed

Does one truly believe if they DO NOT LIVE IT OUT in LOVE?

 

[Skinski7]

The completed work of Jesus was this...

Heb 9:15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Heb 9:16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
Heb 9:17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
Heb 9:18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
Heb 9:19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
Heb 9:20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
Heb 9:21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
Heb 9:22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
Heb 9:23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
Heb 9:24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
Heb 9:25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

We are to utilise the blood of Jesus in this manner...

Heb 10:19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
Heb 10:21 And having an high priest over the house of God;
Heb 10:22 Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

One cannot do that whilst still sinning unto death. We have to come clean with God in repentance, forsaking our sin, yielding ourselves to righteousness. If we do that then God cleanses us.

Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.

There is no "trust in the finished work of Jesus" set apart from "obedience to the truth" in the Bible. That is a lie to teach that.

John wrote that the blood only cleanses those whom WALK in the light. Walking denotes an action. We are to conduct ourselves according to...

it 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

Simple stuff.

 

[gb9]

Titus 3 whole chapter. also simple stuff.

 

[WheresEnoch]

Why do you think we should abstain from meat which has been strangled and from blood, whether in or out of meat

Lev 17:11-14
11 For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.
12 Therefore I said unto the children of Israel, No soul of you shall eat blood, neither shall any stranger that sojourneth among you eat blood.
13 And whatsoever man there be of the children of Israel, or of the strangers that sojourn among you, which hunteth and catcheth any beast or fowl that may be eaten; he shall even pour out the blood thereof, and cover it with dust.
14 For it is the life of all flesh; the blood of it is for the life thereof: therefore I said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of flesh: for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof: whosoever eateth it shall be cut off.
KJV


why did Jesus teach the people to observe what was taught from the seat of Moses?

Before the presence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, all Israel was still under the law. only the Law of the Spirit within us frees us from the Law of sin and death.

You think the law of sin and death is the same as the good, holy and spiritual commandments of God which Paul said we uphold/establish?
I think we can choose to base our thoughts and actions on one of two laws, the law of sin and death(flesh) or the law of the Spirit and life (Holy Spirit).

Either way, we are obedient to one or the other. One leads to death one leads to life.

So your answer is that we should observe the commandments to abstain from these things because they are a commandment of God and based on the wisdom of God? I can support you on that.

So then, why was Acts 15 followed with this verse?

Acts 15
21 For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

What is the significance of this? Until I can find better answers than the ones I have, I have to completely acknowledge that Jesus did not come to abolish His commandments and instructions to us but to fully teach them.

 

[SarahM777]

A work is simply the engagement of a task. To engage in something means we have to make an effort to do it. In other words a work is "being active" as opposed to being "passive" and doing nothing.

When the Bible speaks of "not of works" there is a context.

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Salvation is via...

1. Grace through faith = We are God's workmanship as opposed to being our own workmanship.

The grace that brings salvation is what gives us direction.

Tit 2:11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
Tit 2:12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;

If we look up Grace in the Greek we see...



Take note it says "especially the divine influence upon the heart, and its reflection in the life."

Paul described the mechanism of workmanship thus...

2Co 5:21 For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2Co 6:1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain.

"Being made the righteousness of God in Him" is synonymous to the "abide in me and I will abide in you" that Jesus taught. In other words we plug ourselves into God through repentance and faith whereby we are wholeheartedly yielded to His divine influence upon our hearts.

Paul describes this all as "working together with God" and asserts that without this working principle or dynamic then grace is received in vain. In other words, if we do not submit ourselves to God and yield wholeheartedly (cooperate) then the grace of God is not effectual in saving our soul. Without the dynamic of "grace through faith" no transformation of the human heart can take place.

"Not of works" is a reference to deeds done apart from this working dynamic. One could obey outwardly the entire Law of Moses yet without faith it is worthless. The issue is our heart. The issue is the inward man. The outward man simply bears the fruit of the inward.

The false teachers have redefined "not of works" to mean "do nothing except trust." Thus they disconnect "faith" from "obedience to the truth" whereby a soul is made pure. This is why they will always argue in favour of ongoing wickedness in salvation when pressed by careful questioning. It is very easy to expose these people.

Grace does this...

Eph 2:5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved

The quickening is also mentioned by Paul here...

Col 2:10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
Col 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The quickening is synonymous with the refreshing described in Acts...

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The new birth is thus a result of "grace through faith." We wholeheartedly trust and yield to the grace of God and the result is the transformation of our hearts via the power of God. This is what "saved by grace through faith" means. It is speaking of the dynamic which brings total transformation.

The false teachers redefine the terms. They teach that faith is merely "trust," ie. mental acknowledgement of some facts. The "facts" they teach is generally that one is "born a sinner" and that "Jesus is the sinners substitute." To be saved one just has to admit their sinfulness and trust that the substitution was made. It is through this means that they convince people to believe they are "positionally saved" whilst they still serve unrighteousness (sin you will and sin you must - ie a perversion of 1Joh 1:8). There is no saving dynamic in that message, Satan has removed it, redefined the terms and presented a hoax.

I agree for one to say those are "works for righteousness" is wrong. Those are all works OF righteousness that should flow out of faith from the heart out of love for God.

No where in scripture does it say that faith is just a mental agreement with God. The big problem that I see with what you say here

The false teachers redefine the terms. They teach that faith is merely "trust," ie. mental acknowledgement of some facts. The "facts" they teach is generally that one is "born a sinner" and that "Jesus is the sinners substitute." To be saved one just has to admit their sinfulness and trust that the substitution was made. It is through this means that they convince people to believe they are "positionally saved" whilst they still serve unrighteousness (sin you will and sin you must - ie a perversion of 1Joh 1:8). There is no saving dynamic in that message, Satan has removed it, redefined the terms and presented a hoax.

is too often what is left out is that God has given us EVERYTHING we need to overcome our flesh,the devil and the world.
Too often that is not preached,too often we are just given a band-aid and just left to be crippled Christians and not victorious warriors in the Lord. I can't remember the last time I heard a sermon on us being REDEEMED SAINTS that overcome these things.

Please help me out with this,I think I am starting to get what you are saying about this,you talk about the rebellion ceasing,when you say that you are not saying that we will reach sinless perfection (We still fall short of the mark of perfect agape love) What I think I am hearing you say that,you are talking about hings like this

Ephesians 5

[SUP]3 [/SUP]But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]6 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore do not be partners with them.

1 Corinthians 6


[SUP]7 [/SUP]The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]10 [/SUP]nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Once we know the law and what God requires and one CONTINUES in idolatry,murder etc that is in REBELLION to His commands and it shows that person DOES NOT really believe God if they continue in those sins. And the examples that God gave us of those who WERE in rebellion to Him were Korah,Balaam,Saul,Hopni,Phinehias,Saul,and Solomon. And Judas is an example of TREASON.

And those are the same sins UNDER the mosaic law that the penalty was DEATH for the transgressor. There was NO SACRIFICE under the mosaic law for those sins. And those who continue in on those sins are showing CONTEMPT for the shed blood of Christ. And that is why the rebellion must stop.

(Is that what you are trying to say? Because that is what I think you are trying to say and if I am wrong please correct me on that)

 

[SarahM777]

And one needs to understand what rebellion means

rebellion meaning Merriam Webster

: an effort by many people to change the government or leader of a country by the use of protest or violence
: open opposition toward a person or group in authority

: refusal to obey rules or accept normal standards of behavior, dress, etc.


[h=2]Full Definition of REBELLION[/h]1
: opposition to one in authority or dominance


2
a : open, armed, and usually unsuccessful defiance of or resistance to an established government
b : an instance of such defiance or resistance




Rebellion is NOT STUMBLING along the way but OPEN DEFIANCE to God. It's an attitude of the HEART.

 

[Skinski7]

I agree for one to say those are "works for righteousness" is wrong. Those are all works OF righteousness that should flow out of faith from the heart out of love for God.

No where in scripture does it say that faith is just a mental agreement with God. The big problem that I see with what you say here

The false teachers redefine the terms. They teach that faith is merely "trust," ie. mental acknowledgement of some facts. The "facts" they teach is generally that one is "born a sinner" and that "Jesus is the sinners substitute." To be saved one just has to admit their sinfulness and trust that the substitution was made. It is through this means that they convince people to believe they are "positionally saved" whilst they still serve unrighteousness (sin you will and sin you must - ie a perversion of 1Joh 1:8). There is no saving dynamic in that message, Satan has removed it, redefined the terms and presented a hoax.

is too often what is left out is that God has given us EVERYTHING we need to overcome our flesh,the devil and the world.
Too often that is not preached,too often we are just given a band-aid and just left to be crippled Christians and not victorious warriors in the Lord. I can't remember the last time I heard a sermon on us being REDEEMED SAINTS that overcome these things.

Please help me out with this,I think I am starting to get what you are saying about this,you talk about the rebellion ceasing,when you say that you are not saying that we will reach sinless perfection (We still fall short of the mark of perfect agape love) What I think I am hearing you say that,you are talking about hings like this

Ephesians 5

[SUP]3 [/SUP]But among you there must not be even a hint of sexual immorality, or of any kind of impurity, or of greed, because these are improper for God’s holy people. [SUP]4 [/SUP]Nor should there be obscenity, foolish talk or coarse joking, which are out of place, but rather thanksgiving. [SUP]5 [/SUP]For of this you can be sure: No immoral, impure or greedy person—such a person is an idolater—has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]6 [/SUP]Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. [SUP]7 [/SUP]Therefore do not be partners with them.

1 Corinthians 6


[SUP]7 [/SUP]The very fact that you have lawsuits among you means you have been completely defeated already. Why not rather be wronged? Why not rather be cheated? [SUP]8 [/SUP]Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers and sisters. [SUP]9 [/SUP]Or do you not know that wrongdoers will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor men who have sex with men[SUP][a][/SUP] [SUP]10 [/SUP]nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [SUP]11 [/SUP]And that is what some of you were. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

Once we know the law and what God requires and one CONTINUES in idolatry,murder etc that is in REBELLION to His commands and it shows that person DOES NOT really believe God if they continue in those sins. And the examples that God gave us of those who WERE in rebellion to Him were Korah,Balaam,Saul,Hopni,Phinehias,Saul,and Solomon. And Judas is an example of TREASON.

And those are the same sins UNDER the mosaic law that the penalty was DEATH for the transgressor. There was NO SACRIFICE under the mosaic law for those sins. And those who continue in on those sins are showing CONTEMPT for the shed blood of Christ. And that is why the rebellion must stop.

(Is that what you are trying to say? Because that is what I think you are trying to say and if I am wrong please correct me on that)

I think you are finally understanding what I am saying.

We have an advocate for imperfection ie. sins of ignorance. We do not have an advocate or a sacrifice for ongoing rebellion.

The charge of "sinless perfection" people make is a strawman premised on not making any distinction between "sin unto death" and "sin not unto death." Many people wish to blur the two together and then assert that "everyone sins" and because "everyone sins" then thus uphold "sin you will and sin you must" and thus any notion of a cessation of sin has to be rejected and opposed by these people. This is why they simply cannot teach on loving one another from a pure heart fervently.

You stated this...

God has given us EVERYTHING we need to overcome our flesh,the devil and the world.
Too often that is not preached,too often we are just given a band-aid and just left to be crippled Christians and not victorious warriors in the Lord. I can't remember the last time I heard a sermon on us being REDEEMED SAINTS that overcome these things.

Peter agrees..

2Pe 1:3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
2Pe 1:4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

Have you ever heard a sermon preached on "having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust"?

The corruption in the world is through lust. That we can escape that is not taught in the churches because they uphold Original Sin. They blame Original Sin for people sinning, they don't blame the corruption that is in the world through lust which is something the genuine Christian has escaped from.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

We escape that through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. The service of sin ends. There is no more being drawn away by our own lusts and enticed into sinning unto death.

We are still tempted but we overcome temptation through the Spirit of life in Jesus Christ. This is what the Bible teaches.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Paul wrote...

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

The crucifixion of the flesh is not taught in popular theology today. Instead a false gospel message is preached premised on the lie of Penal Substitution. People are deceived into believing that Jesus obeyed in their place and that the obedience of Jesus is credited to their account, this teaching is generally called the "imputed righteousness of Christ." They also teach that Jesus was punished by God in their place and thus the wrath due for their sins was exausted on Jesus. Thus with the lie of Original Sin necessitating the doctrine of "sin you will and sin you must" they have the perfect cloak for ongoing wickedness. The salvation they teach is merely "trusting in this finished work of Jesus" they believe in and it all has NOTHING to do what is actually stated in the Bible.

It is a message of death and it is strong delusion.

You cannot remember that last time you heard a sermon on us being Redeemed Saints that overcome these things (flesh, devil, world) because the people preaching the sermons are false teachers who serve a whore religion that masquerades as the truth.

Jesus was not kidding around when He stated...

Mat 24:4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.
Mat 24:5 For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

There are a few people who see through the lie. This man being one of them...

[video=youtube;9eL57nAm9Lo]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9eL57nAm9Lo[/video]

 

[SarahM777]

I think you are finally understanding what I am saying.

We have an advocate for imperfection ie. sins of ignorance. We do not have an advocate or a sacrifice for ongoing rebellion.

The charge of "sinless perfection" people make is a strawman premised on not making any distinction between "sin unto death" and "sin not unto death." Many people wish to blur the two together and then assert that "everyone sins" and because "everyone sins" then thus uphold "sin you will and sin you must" and thus any notion of a cessation of sin has to be rejected and opposed by these people. This is why they simply cannot teach on loving one another from a pure heart fervently.

And I myself am guilty of that too. That is what I thought you were saying and that's not your saying at all. I do apologize for causing you so much grief and I am sorry for doing that to you. I think part of it the way the Hebrew and Greek words for sin were translated into. (I have been doing a study of that and it is opening my eyes on some things) I do want to thank you for being patient with me on this and working me through it.