The end of the world is coming. What should we be looking for?
- Thread starter unobtrusive
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E
Ellsworth1943
Guest
Not really----You seem to make Scripture say what you want it to and ignore the true meaning.
Try these passages about the day of the Lord. You will see similar language to the passage of Rev 6:12-17.
The events that are described happened long ago to different cities and nations.
Please read the context passage first, and then focus in on the selected verses.
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Jer 46:1-12, The day of the lord against Egypt, v 2, 10. Also, Ezek 30:1-5, 3.
Please also note the reference to Egypt being like rising flood waters. Waters are people, Rev 17:15.
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Isaiah 34:1-10, 6, 8, The day of the Lord against Idumea (Edom).
See especially v 4, "And the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and and as a falling fig from the fig tree."
This already happened years ago, now compare it to Rev 6:13-14.
The Isaiah passage is about Edom, the Rev passage is about 70 AD Jerusalem.
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Isaiah 13:1-22, 9, The day of the Lord against Babylon. Vs 9-13.
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Day of the Lord against 70 AD Jerusalem.
Joel 2:1-11, Confirmed by Peter on the day of Pentecost Acts 2:16-21.
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The events that are described happened long ago to different cities and nations.
Please read the context passage first, and then focus in on the selected verses.
=============
Jer 46:1-12, The day of the lord against Egypt, v 2, 10. Also, Ezek 30:1-5, 3.
Please also note the reference to Egypt being like rising flood waters. Waters are people, Rev 17:15.
--
Isaiah 34:1-10, 6, 8, The day of the Lord against Idumea (Edom).
See especially v 4, "And the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and and as a falling fig from the fig tree."
This already happened years ago, now compare it to Rev 6:13-14.
The Isaiah passage is about Edom, the Rev passage is about 70 AD Jerusalem.
---
Isaiah 13:1-22, 9, The day of the Lord against Babylon. Vs 9-13.
---
Day of the Lord against 70 AD Jerusalem.
Joel 2:1-11, Confirmed by Peter on the day of Pentecost Acts 2:16-21.
------
You might want to reconsider what the purpose of The Book of The Revelation of Christ was.
Jerusalem was destroyed in ad 67-70, John wrote the revelation in ad 95, he isnt talking about the destruction of jerusalem in the future. and revelation 6 is not about the destruction of jerusalem, it is the curses written in the law, sent into the earth By Jesus.
God told them all along many times over
jeremiah Therefore thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel; Behold, I will feed them, even this people, with wormwood, and give them water of gall to drink. 16I will scatter them also among the heathen, whom neither they nor their fathers have known: and I will send a sword after them, till I have consumed them.
He always says to them i will destroy you with famine, pestelence, and the sword, i will feed you wormwood ( un inspired doctrine) i will send fire to the earth. God warned and warned israel, but..... they refused to repent after all He had done for them.
the destruction of jerusalem is foretold, and when it was destroyed, the jews were scattered into all nations and thier himeland was taken. Jews are in every nation on earth and were a wandering people until 1947 when Isaraels statehood was reinstated after world war 2. for over 2000 Years they were persecuted more than any people on earth, they endured famines, pestelence, the sword of foreign nations, the first 4 seals are those judgements in the Law and because jerusalem was scattered into the earth bearing the Law, those curses are sent into the earth with the jews who bear the Law that bears the curses and judgements upon sinners..
jerusalem was destroyed before revelation was written, but it isnt depicted in revelation 6, Jerusalem has been destroyed repeatedly through time beginning at 600 bc with babylon when the temple was destroyed the first time. since then the judgements in the Law are in the earth which is where you get all of the terrible things in our world. and was only recently in 1947, reinstated as a nation...which is a sure sign we are getting close to the end because Israel would be gathered just before the end
Source...Christian Courier
When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
by Wayne Jackson
Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).
A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.
In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.
External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.
Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.
Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).
Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.
Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,
Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.
The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.
The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).
Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.
Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).
Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.
The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.
Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).
When Was the Book of Revelation Written?
by Wayne Jackson
Traditionally, the book of Revelation has been dated near the end of the first century, around A.D. 96. Some writers, however, have advanced the preterist (from a Latin word meaning “that which is past”) view, contending that the Apocalypse was penned around A.D. 68 or 69, and thus the thrust of the book is supposed to relate to the impending destruction of Jerusalem (A.D. 70).
A few prominent names have been associated with this position (e.g., Stuart, Schaff, Lightfoot, Foy E. Wallace Jr.), and for a brief time it was popular with certain scholars. James Orr has observed, however, that recent criticism has reverted to the traditional date of near A.D. 96 (1939, 2584). In fact, the evidence for the later date is extremely strong.
In view of some of the bizarre theories that have surfaced in recent times (e.g., the notion that all end-time prophecies were fulfilled with the fall of Jerusalem in A.D. 70), which are dependent upon the preterist interpretation, we offer the following.
External Evidence
The external evidence for the late dating of Revelation is of the highest quality.
Irenaeus
Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.
Clement of Alexandria
Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).
Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his early sixties at this time.
Victorinus
Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:
When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).
Jerome
Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,
In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).
To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.
Internal Evidence
The contents of the book of Revelation also suggest a late date, as the following observations indicate.
The spiritual conditions of the churches described in Revelation chapters two and three more readily harmonize with the late date.
The church in Ephesus, for instance, was not founded by Paul until the latter part of Claudius’s reign: and when he wrote to them from Rome, A.D. 61, instead of reproving them for any want of love, he commends their love and faith (Eph. 1:15) (Horne 1841, 382).
Yet, when Revelation was written, in spite of the fact that the Ephesians had been patient (2:2), they had also left their first love (v. 4), and this would seem to require a greater length of time than seven or eight years, as suggested by the early date.
Another internal evidence of a late date is that this book was penned while John was banished to Patmos (1:9). It is well known that Domitian had a fondness for this type of persecution. If, however, this persecution is dated in the time of Nero, how does one account for the fact that Peter and Paul are murdered, yet John is only exiled to an island? (Eusebius III.18; II.25).
Then consider this fact. The church at Laodicea is represented as existing under conditions of great wealth. She was rich and had need of nothing (3:17). In A.D. 60, though, Laodicea had been almost entirely destroyed by an earthquake. Surely it would have required more than eight or nine years for that city to have risen again to the state of affluence described in Revelation.
The doctrinal departures described in Revelation would appear to better fit the later dating. For example, the Nicolaitans (2:6, 15) were a full-fledged sect at the time of John’s writing, whereas they had only been hinted at in general terms in 2 Peter and Jude, which were written possibly around A.D. 65-66.
Persecution for professing the Christian faith is evidenced in those early letters to the seven churches of Asia Minor. For instance, Antipas had been killed in Pergamum (2:13). It is generally agreed among scholars, however, that Nero’s persecution was mostly confined to Rome; further, it was not for religious reasons (Harrison 1964, 446).
I told you I studied through the CoC for 12 years. I was also spoon-fed the "Christian Courier" Pablum..... until I started looking elsewhere.
Regardless.....the book of Revelation was not fulfilled before 70 or in 70 A.D. no matter how one slices and dices it....and I did not post the above because of your stance or belief...there are too many unfulfilled events in Revelation to honestly state that it took place before 71 A.D.
Hello Willie-T.......The preterist eschatology relies on the prophecies of Revelation and NT along with others Prophecies in the OT that deal with the end times, to have all been fulfilled in the 70A destruction of Jerusalem and its temple.
One of the Keys to this eschatology is that Revelation is written prior to 70 AD. In fact, for this scheme to work, the time that Revelation has to be written in would be within 64-fall of 67AD. Outside of these dates the Preterist eschatology simply falls apart. I will not go into the meat of this scenario but if Revelation is written within this time, many of the prophecies (i.e. 7 Letters to the Churches) found in Rev. simply go away.
Back to your narrative of Irenaeus:
Irenaeus was a disciple of PolyCarp who was a disciple of John. He was one of the sources among many (both Secular and Christian) for Eusebius, a Christian Historian who lived two hundred years after Domitian's reign(AD81-96). All Eusebius sources placed the date of John on Patmos as to the reign of Domitian. He did have access to records of that time no less than we would have access to records occuring in the 1900's.
According to Willie-T, Irenaeus may have given out some wrong dates but according to Eusebius, Irenaeus and his other sources agreed on the date John was on Patmos.
One other point...The Monastery of St John the Divine or the Evangelist, located at Patmos also confirms through their records that Johns was on Patmos during Domitian's reign. If fact, they up until the 1990's were not even aware of the Revelation Dispute.
I think we can safely say John was at Patmos during the reign of Domitian and through the very WORD of GOD, He was on Patmos when he was writing Revelation. Rev 1:9..." I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ."
Since you feel this was meant to be our generation's crystal ball..... Would you be just as willing to accept that Revelation was expressly written for people who will not be born until the year..... oh, say, 3,047? How much sense would that book make for you, today? None at all, of course.
Well, that's about how much sense a book written for us, but expressly addressed to, delivered to, and read to 7 carefully named churches existing back in Asia Minor in those days, would have made to them. We will never understand the Book John wrote to the persecuted 1st century Christians to comfort them of the total Kingship of the man they had chosen to follow to the death, until we give up thinking it is our generation's crystal ball.
excellent post.
and just to interject, look at this one example and how vastly different it makes the rest of Gods word if one follows such an idea. it basiacally makes all of prophecy irrelevant it makes the Bible itself, part of the past and keeps much of it there to go on the thought its already been fulfilled. this is the danger of hearing men rather than Gods Word, it can and will lead the mind astray and where the mind goes the person follows
Actually, it is this thinking that has made the Book of Revelation irrelevant for something like more than close to a thousand and a half years. That thinking says Revelation was not intended, at all, for the churches it was sent to, nor for any Christian who has lived since then..... all the way up until this specific generation.
BTW, it is God's word that said, twice in that book, that those things were going to happen SOON. It is only MEN who have tried to make "soon" mean 2,000 or more years off into the future.