Its an integral part of the message.
One of the polemics delivered by Muslims is that you need to understand the original Arabic in order to properly interpret the Koran.
Check.
The essential characteristics of the Biblical Jesus
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Its an integral part of the message.
One of the polemics delivered by Muslims is that you need to understand the original Arabic in order to properly interpret the Koran.
Check.
if the koran was written by early arab christians
(and this is not the majority opinion, from what I could tell on the web... I could be wrong)
I would expect their writings about God and his relationship to humans would be a lot more Jesus-centered.
maybe they were christians in the same sense that joseph smith (mormons) and charles russel (jw's) were christians?
I wouldn't say I readily accept the existing english translations. I do think they probably have some validity (as translations).
I can't read the code of hammurabi. suppose I find ten sources which say it's a set of laws, and one that says it's about space aliens. what view should I take?
if Jesus' deity comes through in any reasonable translation, then let's use one of those.
I don't doubt that the koran was influenced by the bible. I suspect there are some differences... does it say that Jesus died, and rose on the third day?
yes, I did post the original comparison of
the Jesus of the bible is to the Jesus of the bom
as
the Jesus of the bible is to the Jesus of the koran.
I think that's reasonable. I can't see why I'd want to research it further. if you see a reason, then I'm interested... but it would need to be something not based on a personal translation.
Much of the Koran contains OT material.
As such, being 'Jesus-centered' would be in the eye of the beholder.....just ask any Jew...
I don't consider either of those two conmen to be Christians.
Why, exactly?
Actually, it does!
89.1 And/by the dawn. (Announces & swears by the morning of Jesus’ singular Resurrection)
89.2 And three nights. (Swears by the three nights Jesus was in the earth)
89.3 And/by the two days after the sacrifice and the third day. (Swears by the three days Jesus was in the earth)
89.4 And/by the night when He departed. (Swears by Jesus’ empty tomb)
89.5 Is in that an oath to an understanding? (Asks if the reader understands)
89.6 Did you not see how your Lord He has returned from the grave? (Jesus’ singular resurrection)
89.7 A sign, Lord of the pillar. (Jesus carrying the Cross)
89.8 Which has not been built similar to it in the city? (Jesus crucified outside the city)
89.9 And a small round cavity whom they hewed out the rocks in the valley (Jesus’ grave)
89.10 And King, Lord of the wooden stakes. (Jesus being crucified)
89.11 Whom he rose high in the cities. (Jesus being crucified)
89.12 So they spread in her the corruption. (Babylon the Great)
89.13 So your Lord he poured on them various kinds of punishment. (Jesus opening the Seals)
89.14 Truly your Lord with the ambush. (Jesus’ Second Coming)
89.15 So rather the people when that which he tried him, his Lord, so he has honored him and made him prosperous, so he says: "My Lord he has honored me." (The Elect)
89.16 And rather when that which He tried him, so He straightened on him his provision, so he says: "My Lord disgraced me." (The Second Death)
89.17 Not at all, but you do not honor the orphan. (Babylon the Great)
89.18 And nor urge on feeding the poor. (Babylon the Great)
89.19 And you eat the heritage, state of eating, wholly and indiscriminately. (Babylon the Great)
89.20 And you love the wealth, love very much. (Babylon the Great)
89.21 Not at all when the earth shall be made level, without hills, and without mountains. (Jesus opening the Sixth Seal)
89.22 And your Lord He came and the angels row (after) row. (Jesus’ Second Coming)
89.23 And he was brought then on that dayto Hell;then on that day he receives admonition (from) the people, and where for him the reminder? (The Second Death)
89.24 He says: "O! If only I brought about for my everlasting state of existence." (The Second Death)
89.25 So on that day he will not punish torment;he punished him alone. (The Second Death)
89.26 And none shall bind His bond alone. (The Second Death)
89.27 O! you the soul,the at rest. (The First Resurrection)
89.28 Return you to your Lord in blissful happiness, well pleased. (The First Resurrection)
89.29 So you enter in My slaves. (Jesus’ Elect entering through the gates of Heaven)
89.30 And you enter My treed garden. (Jesus’ Elect entering through the gates of Heaven)
again, I think you're using a personal translation.
I have no idea how the reference you gave shows how Jesus died "according to the scriptures"... for example, that Jesus died for our sins.
I disagree that the translations are useless. I don't know the reasonings of the kjv translators, but that doesn't make the kjv useless.
besides, if I'm going to use the approach you're talking about when talking with muslims, the muslim and I would have to agree on what source material we would use. if the muslim knows arabic and I don't, then I'm unlikely to persuade them. if neither of us knows arabic, then we'd have to agree on a translation... imo.
I hate to break it to you, Dan....but every translation out there is personal.
That's why there are so many...
if someone wants to learn arabic so they can help people decieved by islam, I say a big Amen to that.
for the vast majority of christians, I think it wouldn't make sense. I think you'd have to convince the muslim that you know more arabic than the leader of their mosque, just for starters.
and probably, that there is at least a small group of muslims or former-muslims that accept your translation... maybe there is?
also, math equations tend to be far more precise than language translations.
but hey, Bowman, if you can make it work, then may the Lord bless you in your strivings.
Showing the context of the subsequent ayah, like I already mentioned...
And their saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus, Mary's son,“allah's”messenger”,and that they killed him,and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they followed in Him,certainly they (are) not indoubt from Him,on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him. But “allah”,he raised Himto him, and“allah” was mighty, wise. And that fromThe Book's people, except he certainly shall believe with Him before His death; and the Resurrection Day is on them a witness. (4.157 – 159)
Context shows the sequence of events, beginning with Jesus' crucifixion and ending with His Resurrection....all according to 'alkitab'.
Pretty clear...Dan...
I have some ocean front property in Iowa for sale.
All Muslims must obey the Arabic.
right, and when Peter said that, I think he meant Jesus' name in the sense of "reputation" or "personality".
it's a good example of a translation problem, imo... to put it in very modern "street" english, we'd probably say, "there's no other way you can make God happy. You just gotta build your life around Jesus... who he is, what he said, what he did."
It all depends upon how motivated you are...
That does not negate that each requires study as to how it was derived.
Thank you!
Jesus Created the Universe in both the Holy Bible & the Koran...
Bible (The Truth, Jesus Christ, created the Universe)
Bible (The Truth, Jesus Christ, created the Universe)
- In the Gospel of John, Jesus makes it plainly known, via the usage of the singular personal pronouns “autos”(dative), “ego”(nominative), and “emou”(genitive) that only He is ‘The Truth’ (John 14.6)
- John’s Gospel also initiates with the proclamation that the entire Universe was brought into existence through ‘The Truth’, Jesus Christ
· The entire Universe (kosmos) is repeatedly stated as emanating only though (dia) Jesus Christ, ‘The Truth’ (ho aletheia), as the casual agent. (John 1.1 – 17) - In Colossians, Jesus Christ is stated as being the causal agent responsible for the entire Universe (Colossians 1.16)
- Three separate and distinct primary prepositions are used to describe Jesus’ creative power in Colossians (i.e. “en”, “dia”, & “eis”)
- Three separate prepositions were used here to make it crystal clear that three separate modes of operation are in effect at the same time
- In each case, the preposition is flanked by the masculine singular, “autos”
- The first instance of “autos” is in the dative singular masculine indicating that Jesus is the object of the primary preposition, “en”, rendered as “by”
- The second instance of “autos” is in the genitive singular masculine indicating that Jesus is in direct possession of the creative act – i.e. He is in complete control of it – and is attached to the preposition “dia” rendered as, “through”
- The third instance of “autos” is in the accusative singular masculine again indicating that Jesus is the direct object of the preposition, “eis”, rendered as “for”
- Thus, from this Biblical verse alone, creation is By, Through, and For Jesus Christ all at the same time…indicating, yet, again, that He is the Triune creator God of the Universe
Jesus Created the Universe in both the Holy Bible & the Koran...
Koran (The Truth, Jesus Christ, created the Universe)
Koran (The Truth, Jesus Christ, created the Universe)
- Per the classic definition, “alhaqqi” means ‘The Truth’, and is actually a name for “allah”, and a name for God, and yet, as we discover, a clear distinction is made between “allah” and ‘The Truth’
- Further compounding the situation is the fact that “alhaqqi” is applied to Jesus Christ in the Koran, and tells us that ‘The Truth’, is only Jesus Christ (4.171) – of which makes Jesus Christ God Almighty, in and of itself
- The key phrase in 4.171 is “illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa” i.e. “except The Truth (is) only The Messiah Jesus”
- The first word that we encounter in this phrase, after the term “allah”, is “illa”, which gives exception of two kinds to what follows it, as told to us by the classic definition… “1) Exception in which the thing excepted belongs to the same class or species to which the things from which an exception is sought to be made, belongs. “2) Exception in which the excepted thing belongs to a different class or species.”
- Using the first “exception” definition mandates that Jesus Christ is God
- Using the second “exception” definition mandates that Jesus Christ is in a class all by Himself – separate from “allah” – even though, “alhaqqa” (a name for God) is still directly applied to Jesus Christ
- Surveying the Koranic contextual usage of this term along with ‘The Truth’ clearly indicates that it is used in both definition fashions:
- Jesus is clearly deity class
- Jesus is clearly in a league apart from “allah”
- This exception, which applies to “alhaqqa”, (‘The Truth’) is then juxtaposed to theword “innama”
- The classic definition quite clearly states that “innama” “affirms a thing in relation to that which is mentioned after it.”
- The words mentioned after “innama” are none other than “almaseehu AAeesa” i.e. Jesus The Messiah
- Thus, “alhaqqi” (i.e. ‘The Truth’), is the “thing” that is being related to Jesus Christ – which is mentioned after it
- Hence, “The Truth is only Jesus Christ”
- Now that we understand that the authors’ of the Koran have the same Biblical understanding as to ‘The Truth’ pertaining only Jesus Christ; and that Jesus Christ is God; let’s define the one final term (bialhaqqi) in this discussion and see exactly how it is used to describe the creation of the Universe in the Koran
- The inseparable prefix “bi” in this word, interestingly carries with it the same definitions “by”, “through”, & “for”, same as found in the Holy Bible used to describe Jesus’ creation of the Universe.For this discussion we will just use the definition “through”
- Thus, for this study, “bialhaqqi” = through ‘The Truth’
- Five Koranic ayahs, clearly separate and negate that “allah” solely created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them – and, instead, gives exception (via the insertion of the term “illa”, i.e. except) juxtaposed to “bialhaqqi” (through ‘The Truth’), thus placing ‘The Truth’ into the necessary casual agent class – completely separate from “allah”, just as previously witnessed in 4.171. (10.5, 15.85, 30.8, 44.38 - 39, 46.3)
- One example is an open admission that previous verses are explained in detail (yufassilu al-ayati).The fact that this had to be mentioned in the first place demonstrates that the material that is being detailed (i.e. the Holy Bible) was already in existence (10.5)
- As further evidence that the causal agent for the creation of the Universe is through ‘The Truth’ (i.e. Jesus Christ); there are the following six ayahs (29.44, 14.19, 16.3, 39.5, 45.22, 64.3)
- This first example is even an open admission that previous revelation (i.e. the Holy Bible) contained this information (29.44)
- Reviewing, once again, 4.171, we are told that ‘The Truth’, Jesus Christ, is also‘The Word’
- Just as proclaimed in 4.171, this final ayah repeats and confirms that ‘The Truth’ through which the entire Universe is brought into being, is also ‘his Word’ (qawluhu alhaqqu) (6.73)
P
psalm6819
Guest
that's a bunch of hooey, tell me do we then convert the satanist with the satanic bible?
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psalm6819
Guest
no matter how many times you call black white.....it isn't. I've not noticed any scripture from the Bible..only the koran...
B
BrotherJustin
Guest
Bowman, I think you misunderstand me. I am not playing some game where we one-up each other or attempt to make the other person fold--I'm here to try to gain a better understanding.
You claimed that you have found, through proper translation of the Quran, that Muhammad is actually Jesus.
I am not attempting to prove you wrong. What I am doing, is asking you to explain what good has come and might come from this new knowledge (should it be true).
But, alas, you seem to be more focused on defending your position:
Your response has an arrogant tone--assuming I am "in denial" and stating that the implications of your supposition "are obvious".
You have not let-up from this arrogant tone... you've continued it for days now--and I'm beginning to wonder if this is why so many Christians here have taken such issue with you. For, it's not that you are presenting your position inaccurately--it's that you are presenting your position in a conceited, condescending manner.
...a whole new level of seriousness. If something doesn't seem like it fits to you--if it doesn't make sense--just ask for clarification. There's no need to belittle someone else. Christians are supposed to love each other--consider ourselves as less than those we interact with (Phil 2:3).
This whole time, I didn't realize that Bowman was just having fun and playing games.
Sleep, work, family... you know.
Here's my issue with your claim(s), Bowman:
You claim that the primary reason this new knowledge you've found is beneficial to Christians is that it allows us to use the Quran to convert Muslims to Christianity.
The problem with your reason: Your Muslim acquaintance who prompted you to go down this path of study two decades ago is still not a Christian.
Do you know of any who have converted to Christianity based on your supposition that the Muhammad of the Quran is actually Jesus Christ?
I'm open to hearing more ideas as to how your supposition is beneficial to the Body of Christ. That would be something worth breaking the silence.
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[The rest of the koran quote and Bowman's comments truncated by Dan]
maybe I should clarify the "Jesus-centered".
the ot was written before Jesus was born, so its references to Jesus will be in the sense of prophecy and metaphor, imo.
both the koran and the bom were written after Jesus' birth...
so if the koran was written by christians, I would expect a lot more sayings like Jesus is the "heir of all things". (does the koran say that? I don't know...)
what do you believe the beliefs of the alleged christian authors to be?
I think the two translations available at https://carm.org/ probably have some validity because according to wikipedia, they are both very widely used.
is it possible all those people are wrong? sure... but which is more likely?
do you believe that there is a conspiracy to mis-translate, to lead muslims astray?
what translation are you using at the end of your post, there... the part that I truncated?