The essential characteristics of the Biblical Jesus

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[TD="align: center"]Satan is Bound[/TD]
[TD="align: center"]Satan is Not bound[/TD]
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Bowman said:
Once upon a time, Satan was roaming the earth....but that ended when Jesus' death, upon The Cross, bound him.

Now, the only things roaming free on the earth are Satan's demons.

The bad things happening in the world today are because of the millions of free-ranging demons...NOT because of an out-of-control Satan.

If Satan were loose, things would be much, much worse...as scripture tells us they will be when he is released for a short time....as a short time is all he needs to bring things to a quick end.

Rev 20 is not a future event, it is just one passage, of many, that proclaim the story of Satan's binding, By Jesus...
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tourist said:
It has been my understanding that Satan is roaming to and fro on the earth seeking those he may devour. I really don't believe that he has been bound for a 1000 years yet to be released to deceive the nations. I think that is in Revelation somewhere.
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Chuckt said:
People argue. Some say that Satan is bound but then some say that that chain is too long.
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It's interesting to notice the alternate conclusions we come to based on subtle differences in interpretation.
 
Bowman said:
Therefore....where is the refutation?

I apply the same exegesis methodology in my Koranic studies that I do in my Biblical studies.

I have provided both Biblical & Koranic examples within this very thread.

Where have we seen any exegetical rebuttal against what I have asserted....even regarding the Biblical assertions that I have made, of which, more than one person has disagreed with...?

Disagreement, without exegetical evidence to the contrary, is simply unreferenced opinion...and anyone can have an opinion...
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I believe you are using a logical fallacy.

simply because someone presents exegesis, doesn't make that exegesis correct.

simply because no one presents a second "counter" exegesis, doesn't mean the first exegesis is correct.

logical fallacies do not need a rebuttal.

******************

but moving away from the strict logical view, the possibility of exegetical rebuttal is why I wanted your works exposed to the experts...

imo, one needs a good working knowledge of classical arabic in order to do a proper exegetical rebuttal.
 
Bowman said:
I've already shown you resources with overlapping claims, Dan.

The onus is upon you to do some leg work in lieu of looking to beef-up your laundry list of excuses why you can't be bothered if it isn't free, or laid upon your front doorstep...
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I'm only aware of one resource that you presented, a book at amazon which talks about the koran being written by "christians" of some sort...

if you posted other url's of sources that we can read online for free,
will confirm what you say,
are clearly independent of yourself,
and offer exegetical reasonings for their statements,
please give the post numbers.


I need a compelling reason to spend money and do further research
(since the research I've already done indicates that what you're saying is mostly incorrect).

this isn't a baseless excuse, it's common sense... I could spend a lifetime following-up on things that turned out to be hoaxes.
 
Bowman said:
Some of my conclusions are already supported in published works.....I have already mentioned this several times to you people.
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you feel that some of your conclusions are already supported in published works... but some are not?

which ones do you feel aren't?
 
My gerbil has more energy than you...

Dan_473 said:
I believe you are using a logical fallacy.

simply because someone presents exegesis, doesn't make that exegesis correct.

simply because no one presents a second "counter" exegesis, doesn't mean the first exegesis is correct.

logical fallacies do not need a rebuttal.

******************

but moving away from the strict logical view, the possibility of exegetical rebuttal is why I wanted your works exposed to the experts...

imo, one needs a good working knowledge of classical arabic in order to do a proper exegetical rebuttal.
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Asking for a rebuttal does not constitute a logical fallacy.

What it does reveal, however, is laziness on the part of the one making the fallacy assertion...
 
Bowman,

Are you willing to present your work to an Islamic Studies Academic Review Board? If you have already done so, please provide a link to their critique.
 
Dan_473 said:
if you posted other url's of sources that we can read online for free,
will confirm what you say,
are clearly independent of yourself,....
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Here is a publishing that independently agrees with my position that Jesus was crucified until death, as written in the Koran…

Gabriel Sawma is a lawyer dealing with International Law, mainly the European Union Law, the Middle East and Islamic Shari'a Laws. Professor of Aramaic and author of many articles on the Aramaic influence in Biblical Hebrew and in the Qur'an. He speaks, reads, and writes: Arabic, Aramaic, and Hebrew.
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Quote from the article..
‘But contrary to the Hadith interpretation of the Qur’anic verse, and contrary to the translation mentioned above, and to the erroneous interpretation rendered by Abdullah Yussuf Ali, the Qur’an does not deny the death and Crucifixion of Jesus, the Messiah. In fact the Aramaic language of the Qur’an is identical to the story of Crucifixion mentioned in the New Testament.’

http://www.assyriatimes.com/assyrian/knowledge/the-death-and-crucifixion-of-jesus-in-the-quran/3209
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You can read a portion of his book here…

http://www.amazon.com/Quran-Misinterpreted-Mistranslated-Misread-Language/dp/0977860698/ref=pd_sim_14_62?ie=UTF8&dpID=51Z7EyxqPsL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR97%2C160_&refRID=1JM0ZSRDQMAM4MFW5NEJ#reader_0977860698




 
Re: My gerbil has more energy than you...

Bowman said:
Asking for a rebuttal does not constitute a logical fallacy.

What it does reveal, however, is laziness on the part of the one making the fallacy assertion...
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it's true that asking for a rebuttal does not constitute a logical fallacy.

the logical fallacy is asserting that because someone presents an exegesis, that exegesis must be correct.

it's not a matter of laziness, I could spend a lifetime following-up on things that turned out to be hoaxes.
 
Re: My gerbil has more energy than you...

Dan_473 said:
it's true that asking for a rebuttal does not constitute a logical fallacy.

the logical fallacy is asserting that because someone presents an exegesis, that exegesis must be correct.
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Of which, you can not disprove...



it's not a matter of laziness, I could spend a lifetime following-up on things that turned out to be hoaxes.
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You have spent a lifetime looking for excuses...
 
Bowman said:
Islam would reject it.

It would need to be reviewed by an independent, non-affiliated third party.
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what non-affiliated third party do you recommend? have you presented it? or have you decided not to present it because you are afraid you'll be harmed?
 
Bowman said:
Here is a publishing that independently agrees with my position that Jesus was crucified until death, as written in the Koran…





Quote from the article..






You can read a portion of his book here…

http://www.amazon.com/Quran-Misinterpreted-Mistranslated-Misread-Language/dp/0977860698/ref=pd_sim_14_62?ie=UTF8&dpID=51Z7EyxqPsL&dpSrc=sims&preST=_AC_UL160_SR97%2C160_&refRID=1JM0ZSRDQMAM4MFW5NEJ#reader_0977860698
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excellent! thanks for the references!

a few observations...

the references indicate that there is so far one person who agrees that the koran says that Jesus was crucified. that's a good start... hopefully there will be other experts.

I see that the book was published in 2006, and the author is still alive, and very public. so, publishing these ideas doesn't seem extremely dangerous.

the quote from
The Death and Crucifixion of Jesus in the Quran - Assyrian Knowledge
"and they say, we did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, what they slew, and what they crucified, and to you (the women who followed Jesus at the Crucifixion) he is blessed and to them (his followers) as well."

compare to
Bowman said:
4.157 Andtheir saying: "Truly we killed The Messiah, Jesus,Mary's son,“allah's”messenger”,and that they killed him,and that they crucified him, and certainly they alike, and truly whom they differed in Him, certainly they (are) not in doubt from Him,on account of Him, from knowledge, except to follow the belief, and that they surely killed him.
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so, I see that Sawma's translation agrees with you that Jesus was crucified, but departs significantly from yours in that last part of the verse.

given that you and sawma don't render the verse much alike, and both renderings differ significantly from other translations, an important conclusion I draw from this is that the koran is easily translated in very different ways.

so, while I commend you for finding that reference, and agree that it does support your claim that Jesus was crucified, it also leads me to think that the koran was written in a language that we have few other samples of. hence, lots of very different renderings.

so... it looks to me like there is not much value in studying the koran in order to witness to muslims, since their likely answer will be, "there's loads of ways to translate that".
 
Re: My gerbil has more energy than you...

Bowman said:
Of which, you can not disprove...





You have spent a lifetime looking for excuses...
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logical fallacies don't need to be disproved... indeed, because they are irrational, often there is no rational rebuttal.

I think I have spent time finding good reasons to do and not do things.
 
Dear Everybody,

"It will be in the last days, says God, that I will pour out My Spirit on all flesh... Your old men will dream dreams."

I was shown in a dream that the koran is demonic.

so, I'm outta here.

May the peace of the Lord be with you all!
Love in Christ,
Dan
 
I can't recall any dreams for a long time now.

Guess I'm not old yet. ;)
 
Bowman said:
Islam would reject it.

It would need to be reviewed by an independent, non-affiliated third party.
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If you can not defend your work before an Islamic Academic Review Board, why are you trying to defend it before a bunch of Christians, who have no working knowledge of language of the Koran?

I'm a graduate engineer. I had to defend my work before an Academic Review Board. It was a week (over 40 years ago) that I will never forget. When your research is on the edge of the accepted, it's up to you to prove it to those who know the field of your research. Especially if you are challenging them.
 
Dan_473 said:
excellent! thanks for the references!

a few observations...

the references indicate that there is so far one person who agrees that the koran says that Jesus was crucified. that's a good start... hopefully there will be other experts.

I see that the book was published in 2006, and the author is still alive, and very public. so, publishing these ideas doesn't seem extremely dangerous.

the quote from
The Death and Crucifixion of Jesus in the Quran - Assyrian Knowledge
"and they say, we did kill the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah, what they slew, and what they crucified, and to you (the women who followed Jesus at the Crucifixion) he is blessed and to them (his followers) as well."

compare to



so, I see that Sawma's translation agrees with you that Jesus was crucified, but departs significantly from yours in that last part of the verse.

given that you and sawma don't render the verse much alike, and both renderings differ significantly from other translations, an important conclusion I draw from this is that the koran is easily translated in very different ways.

so, while I commend you for finding that reference, and agree that it does support your claim that Jesus was crucified, it also leads me to think that the koran was written in a language that we have few other samples of. hence, lots of very different renderings.

so... it looks to me like there is not much value in studying the koran in order to witness to muslims, since their likely answer will be, "there's loads of ways to translate that".
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Sawma's premise is that Aramaic influenced the Koran.

Luxenberg's premise is that Syriac influenced the Koran.

My premise is that Biblical Greek influenced the Koran.
 
Billyd said:
If you can not defend your work before an Islamic Academic Review Board, why are you trying to defend it before a bunch of Christians, who have no working knowledge of language of the Koran?

I'm a graduate engineer. I had to defend my work before an Academic Review Board. It was a week (over 40 years ago) that I will never forget. When your research is on the edge of the accepted, it's up to you to prove it to those who know the field of your research. Especially if you are challenging them.
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Because they asked me to.
 
Bowman said:
Because they asked me to.
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I'm asking you to take it to a qualified review body. If they accept it, then you have something. If they don't accept it, then it's back to the drawing board for you.

If you are afraid of an Islamic review, present the work to a recognized Christian University Academic Review Board.
 
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