L
letti
Guest
Yes,cobus 666 will be the mark of the beast, but there is also debate on what this will actually be,I would think it would have to be some sort of I.D.since nobody will be able to buy or sell without it.
The falling away
- Thread starter just-me
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L
letti
Guest
You have two groups of Christians killed during the Tribulation my friend. The first group is slaughtered. They worshiped the False One and are seen in heaven as the Great Multitude in Rev 7. They are contrasted clearly from the 144,000 who are God's elect, God's chosen and faithful. They are NOT martyred. Their souls are not under the alter with the other martyrs from the 5th seal, rather they are standing before God crying and ashamed. We see them contrasted also in Isaiah 65 as those hungry and thirsty, ashamed and crying. They are not hungry and thirsty for actual food and water, rather for spiritual feeding, having believed the lie. This first group is allowed to be killed and taken out of the way at the 6th trumpet as part of 1/3 of the world being allowed to die.
The next group of Christians who die during the Tribulation are blessed as we see from Rev 14:13. These are the ones who were patient and faithful. They are martyrs and will live in reign with Christ for 1,000 years while the other group remains in heaven until the 1,000 years are finished.
Incidentally, nowhere in Revelation (or anywhere else) is a Rapture church seen in heaven. God has never removed a group of faithful from earth while He passed judgment. He didn't do it for the Great Flood, for the plagues of Egypt, for Rahab or for Lot. Understanding the future is easier if one understands the past as God is unchanging and His methods are unchanging.
As for the thief thing applying to the Rapture and not the second coming, perhaps you better look at Rev 16:15:
15 "Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame."
This passage is sandwiched between the 6th and 7th Bowl. The Lord returns in time to save the Day at Armageddon and not before. This is consistent with the timing of the Olivet Discourse and the timing Paul provides. It is the same description Christ gives for His return. So now are you going to say the Lord comes as a thief both times?
Look also at the phrase,
Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.
What is your interpretation of this? Do you think the Lord is telling us to make sure we don't walk around outside naked? Or is this a clear reference to Ephesians 6?
11 Put on the whole armor of God, that you may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. 12 For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places. 13 Therefore take up the whole armor of God, that you may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14 Stand therefore, having girded your waist with truth...
What holds our spiritual garments on? TRUTH. Hmm, truth about what I wonder???
Pre-Tribbers see the 144,000, God's Elect as a bunch of losers who weren't worthy of the Rapture, as being left behind and not as the spiritual giants that they really are. They are spiritual virgins (not literal ones), not having "slept" with false doctrines and religions. They are sealed on their foreheads (brains) with the Truth as opposed to receiving the Mark of the Beast on their foreheads (Satan's lies) or on their hands (Doing the work of the devil).
Pre-Tribbers mistakenly think all the warnings that pertain to the tribulation are for Tribulation saints, who by definition, are brand new Christians who probably haven't even held a Bible, let alone had time to read and digest it. The problem with this thinking is of course, nowhere does it say this in the Bible about the Tribulation era Saints.
What do you see happening here? The time for what?? This is when the deception will reach its peak. The Abomination is seen in Mat 24:15 and in Mat 24:23-26 it says this:
23 Then if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or 'There!' do not believe it. 24 For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you beforehand. 26 Therefore if they say to you, 'Look, He is in the desert!' do not go out; or 'Look, He is in the inner rooms!' do not believe it.
Dear Friend, I don't want to come off as being arrogant but seriously what's your deal??
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When Jesus came the first time He died on the cross and left. When He comes the second time He comes to live in our hearts.
When Jesus told His disciples why He spoke in parables He told them that it was so that He would not be understood by unbelievers, who had closed their spiritual eye's so they would not see the truth.
Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
The information in this Matt 13:15 is very similar to Romans 1:18 where God gives people over to sin who "even though they knew the truth" did not glorify God but "held" the truth down (which is the literal meaning). These people suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.
These people had closed their eye's and Jesus therefore speaks to them in parables or tongues so that they do not understand.
The parables are the mysteries of God expressed by Jesus and Paul in such a way so as to confuse people who do not want to humble themselves before God.
The concept of "Babylon" is referred to as the world in the church. Refer to Milton Greens teaching to understand this further.
Jesus said nothing without using a parable -
Mt 13:34 All this Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed he said nothing to them without a parable.
But when He was alone He revealed these concealed truths to His disciples -
Mr 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them (the crouds of believers and unbelievers): and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
This was so that those who had closed their eyes would not understand and be healed (both physical and spiritual healing).
The preachers have allowed the worldly people to come into the fellowship of believers or sanctuary, -
La 1:10 The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things: for she hath seen that the heathen entered into her sanctuary, whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thy congregation.
The cure for this is simple the preachers must cry out to the Lord -
Joe 1:13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.
The fact is that the world is now currently in the church. Now remember that the parables are specifically to conceal the truth from those who refuse to some to the Lord.
The majority of Christendom is currently involved in arguing over the meaning of the parables. Which are intended to prevent those who "suppress" the knowledge of God from understanding the truth.
The parables of God are not to be literally interpreted - therefore the simple truths are simply disguised to conceal the truth from the insincere person.
When Jesus told His disciples why He spoke in parables He told them that it was so that He would not be understood by unbelievers, who had closed their spiritual eye's so they would not see the truth.
Mt 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
The information in this Matt 13:15 is very similar to Romans 1:18 where God gives people over to sin who "even though they knew the truth" did not glorify God but "held" the truth down (which is the literal meaning). These people suppressed the truth in unrighteousness.
These people had closed their eye's and Jesus therefore speaks to them in parables or tongues so that they do not understand.
The parables are the mysteries of God expressed by Jesus and Paul in such a way so as to confuse people who do not want to humble themselves before God.
The concept of "Babylon" is referred to as the world in the church. Refer to Milton Greens teaching to understand this further.
Jesus said nothing without using a parable -
Mt 13:34 All this Jesus said to the crowds in parables; indeed he said nothing to them without a parable.
But when He was alone He revealed these concealed truths to His disciples -
Mr 4:34 But without a parable spake he not unto them (the crouds of believers and unbelievers): and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.
This was so that those who had closed their eyes would not understand and be healed (both physical and spiritual healing).
The preachers have allowed the worldly people to come into the fellowship of believers or sanctuary, -
La 1:10 The adversary hath spread out his hand upon all her pleasant things: for she hath seen that the heathen entered into her sanctuary, whom thou didst command that they should not enter into thy congregation.
The cure for this is simple the preachers must cry out to the Lord -
Joe 1:13 Gird yourselves, and lament, ye priests: howl, ye ministers of the altar: come, lie all night in sackcloth, ye ministers of my God: for the meat offering and the drink offering is withholden from the house of your God.
The fact is that the world is now currently in the church. Now remember that the parables are specifically to conceal the truth from those who refuse to some to the Lord.
The majority of Christendom is currently involved in arguing over the meaning of the parables. Which are intended to prevent those who "suppress" the knowledge of God from understanding the truth.
The parables of God are not to be literally interpreted - therefore the simple truths are simply disguised to conceal the truth from the insincere person.
Letti I d nt want to discuss the 666 as to what it is, i want to discuss where no one can argue... IF you take the number (looks like it will be of choice) you CANNOT go to heaven... But if you do not you NEED FAITH THAT GOD WILL DO AS HE SAY....
If we get started on that Idea, we will agree on a lot of other stuff in the Bible...
Letti my hurt is that people that claim to be Christians does not TRUST GOD! That is why I would LOVE to talk about the conscuences of talking the mark and not taking the mark...
Let me share my belief... This mark will come in the tribulation... so already it is not going well with ANY PERSON ON EARTH... God says it is a time the WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN AND WILL NEVER SEE AGAIN...WOW have you read the Bible and all the BAD MOMENTS people had to endure... So IF God says this is the worst... Do you remember hw difficult it was fo Israel when Elijah asked God that not even dew should fall on the land? And there was NO WATER. Fot three years NO WATER... And that is NOTHING compared to the tribuation and the time of the mark...
Did you ever think what this would be, I mean rich folk can fly water in to them from all over the world. So it has to be more than drought. and the rich, poor, fat, skinny, ALL would suffer this trial... Only a FEW will pass, because GOD HIMSELF PROVIDED...
The Mark is a once of DOOM YOURSELF, so no person with the mark will make it... but the ones that TRUST GOD...
Is that not what happens right now? If we do not TRUST GOD, would we FOLLOW HIM? How do we FOLLOW God? Jesus said if a man does nt pick up his cross and follow HIM he CANNOT be His disciple... There was no man following Jesus with a cross when He was here as Christ. So it has to be for NOW!
And this is why I want to show you... The ones that does not REALLY know God, will NEVER be free. Not now, and not when the number 666 comes and not AFTER the nuber has doomned the bearers... The discision is as crucial today as when the 666 comes....
If we get started on that Idea, we will agree on a lot of other stuff in the Bible...
Letti my hurt is that people that claim to be Christians does not TRUST GOD! That is why I would LOVE to talk about the conscuences of talking the mark and not taking the mark...
Let me share my belief... This mark will come in the tribulation... so already it is not going well with ANY PERSON ON EARTH... God says it is a time the WORLD HAS NEVER SEEN AND WILL NEVER SEE AGAIN...WOW have you read the Bible and all the BAD MOMENTS people had to endure... So IF God says this is the worst... Do you remember hw difficult it was fo Israel when Elijah asked God that not even dew should fall on the land? And there was NO WATER. Fot three years NO WATER... And that is NOTHING compared to the tribuation and the time of the mark...
Did you ever think what this would be, I mean rich folk can fly water in to them from all over the world. So it has to be more than drought. and the rich, poor, fat, skinny, ALL would suffer this trial... Only a FEW will pass, because GOD HIMSELF PROVIDED...
The Mark is a once of DOOM YOURSELF, so no person with the mark will make it... but the ones that TRUST GOD...
Is that not what happens right now? If we do not TRUST GOD, would we FOLLOW HIM? How do we FOLLOW God? Jesus said if a man does nt pick up his cross and follow HIM he CANNOT be His disciple... There was no man following Jesus with a cross when He was here as Christ. So it has to be for NOW!
And this is why I want to show you... The ones that does not REALLY know God, will NEVER be free. Not now, and not when the number 666 comes and not AFTER the nuber has doomned the bearers... The discision is as crucial today as when the 666 comes....
I understand your point, but we have God protecting by keeping them from the judgment, like the people living in the land of Goshen during the plagues, we have protection through judgment, like Noah and family, we have protection by God removing them from the place of judgment, like Rahab from Jericho, Lot and daughters from Sodom and Gomorrah. It's not wrong to claim Rev. 3:10 as a promise when the promise is to be kept from the "hour of trial" that will come on the whole world. This is a promise of protection that is different from being protected from, through, or in spite of judgment. It's a promise to be protected from the very time of judgment itself!
What we see in Rev. is an awesome time period where many are killed and many worship the Anti-christ, and many worship God and Jesus Christ. I believe it will be a time of evangelization that the world has never seen. Not only the 144,000 who will be awesome witnesses, but also the 2 witnesses having power like Moses and Elijah. Great multitudes from every people group on earth will become saints, not to mention that at Jesus' coming all His enemies will be slain.
There is plenty of time for people to understand Scripture about this. The pre-trib position has nearly 200 years of scholarship behind it now, it was never an attempt to escape the earth, it was always an attempt to understand Scripture. The saints in the tribulation period are easily explained because we do not know exactly how much time there is between the Rapture of the church in the air, and the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel, the 7 year tribulation. They don't happen at the same time.
There are a few allusions to Church saints in Revelation, the 24 elders who surround the throne of God in Rev. 4. This seems to point to the fact that there are Jewish Christians from the 12 tribes and Gentile Christians from the 12 apostles. Also the 5th seal certainly seems to point to all who have been martyred because of God's word, this would certainly include Church saints.
Let me also say that the study of these things requires great effort and love for God's word, as such those who do study this should never resort to name-calling. I would make a case in saying that those who resort to attacking each other over eschatological positions do not really understand the issues. When you read a book by scholars and academics about these things, they explain various positions and give reasons why they believe in theirs. It is only loud-mouthed factions that call down Satanic wrath on views they believe to be wrong. We are always called to speak the truth in love, we don't speak the truth in hate, nor should we neglect the truth to emphasize love.
L
letti
Guest
Cobus,thanks I believe scripture states this,whoever takes the mark is going to receive judgment then eternal damnation.Scary is the fact many will be afraid to die, and accept or not want to starve.But nothing can be worse than to take it and seal your fate for the lake of fire.
God RAPTURED Noah from the waters INTO THE ARC, God RAPTURED Lot OUT OF THE city, and he may not even have looked back... God RAPTURES me out of my old self, AND I MAY NOT LOOK BACK...
This is the BEAUTY about God... HE CAN DO SEPERATION (Rapture and sanctification /set apart/ isolate) So well.
Look God says if I who wants to follow Jesus look back I am NOT WORTHY THE KINGDOM... whosoever look back when he puts his hand to the plough, is not fit to enter in God's Kingdom...
My friend this is just one of God's conditions that I LOVE... the PAST is PAST, and does not have to repeat itself... I see it this way... The past is past, and the only thing the past CAN do, is let me feel bad if I was bad, but the pleasure of being Good RIGHT NOW, will NEVER have me feel bad in the future. But when we get to tomorrow, what I do now, and in ten minnutes time, will have effect on tomorrow... If I go to a friend now and SHARE GOD WITH HIM, tomorrow my friend will have less to feel BAD about, because we BOTH BEEN BLESSED WITH GOD TODAY!!!
No need to LOOK back, if the HOLY SPIRIT DOES NOT reproof me. If the Holy Spirit does reproof me of sin I committed, I HAVE to look back and repent and ask for forgiveness... So, this means, when I go to my friend now, I should make sure to spend a bit of God with him... Do you think you know two people that will be talking about God in about ten minutes time? r at least about something that would make us BOTH a bit mre mature in God.... OH I DO... it is ALL Iwant to talk about...
Why should I look back at yesterday, if EVERY DAY IS A SABBATH? Every day I REST IN GOD. And there is a peace, that NO HUMAN MIND CAN EVEN CONTEMPLATE...And imagine some prophet said.... I will never have peace, if I am not baptized... by them in water... WOW! I wonder if that prophet wants to talk Word with me? Or did he gt peace, or his wife, they certainly did not display peace in their home when I was there that aweful evening. In fact they displayed the opposite of peace in theur home and hearts... SHAME! I reaaly feel sad for them...
This is the BEAUTY about God... HE CAN DO SEPERATION (Rapture and sanctification /set apart/ isolate) So well.
Look God says if I who wants to follow Jesus look back I am NOT WORTHY THE KINGDOM... whosoever look back when he puts his hand to the plough, is not fit to enter in God's Kingdom...
My friend this is just one of God's conditions that I LOVE... the PAST is PAST, and does not have to repeat itself... I see it this way... The past is past, and the only thing the past CAN do, is let me feel bad if I was bad, but the pleasure of being Good RIGHT NOW, will NEVER have me feel bad in the future. But when we get to tomorrow, what I do now, and in ten minnutes time, will have effect on tomorrow... If I go to a friend now and SHARE GOD WITH HIM, tomorrow my friend will have less to feel BAD about, because we BOTH BEEN BLESSED WITH GOD TODAY!!!
No need to LOOK back, if the HOLY SPIRIT DOES NOT reproof me. If the Holy Spirit does reproof me of sin I committed, I HAVE to look back and repent and ask for forgiveness... So, this means, when I go to my friend now, I should make sure to spend a bit of God with him... Do you think you know two people that will be talking about God in about ten minutes time? r at least about something that would make us BOTH a bit mre mature in God.... OH I DO... it is ALL Iwant to talk about...
Why should I look back at yesterday, if EVERY DAY IS A SABBATH? Every day I REST IN GOD. And there is a peace, that NO HUMAN MIND CAN EVEN CONTEMPLATE...And imagine some prophet said.... I will never have peace, if I am not baptized... by them in water... WOW! I wonder if that prophet wants to talk Word with me? Or did he gt peace, or his wife, they certainly did not display peace in their home when I was there that aweful evening. In fact they displayed the opposite of peace in theur home and hearts... SHAME! I reaaly feel sad for them...
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
The biggest commandment LOVE,and part of love not arguing,insulting and forgiving those that do offend us.Nobody changes anybody else if they go about insulting or using sneaky snide remarks.I don't believe in pre-trib but none the less I love my brothers and sisters in Christ even if they do,and I don't like or want to insult them.After, all a little honey goes farther than vinegar.
I usually stay out of tribulation discussions. Would have stayed out of this one, but someone said my brothers and sisters were basically spoon fed by teachers, and believing in a doctrine of satan. I tried to confront and question, and they did not like it, then it got out of hand..
if people would just discuss like you did, things like that would not happen.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
are you willing to discuss this. or are you just wanting to argue?
if you are willing to discuss, may I ask where you figured this out> I have studied this for many years and have never heard this.
1. All Christians are God's elect
2. The people who were martyred were martyred because they DID NOT worship the beast. so not sure why you think they did
3. people will be killed from all sorts of things, because of their faith (martyr) Because of war. because of famine, Because of cataclysmic atmospheric events, such as Earthquakes and the such. Christians as well as non believers will die in these things.
4. non of the people killed in revelation will be at the throne. They are praying out to God asking when God will avenge their deaths, And God tells them to wait. these people at the throne are there before the tribulation starts praising the lamb who can open the seal to START the tribulation.
5. The 144000 are missionaries. People from the nation of Israel who have repented and come to Christ, God protects them, and send them out to save the people of the word. It is part of Gods redemptive activity, including the two witnesses, The martyrs, and the angel going around the glob proclaiming the gospel (of course one must wonder, if the church is left behind, Why is God going to supernatural events such as protecting all these people and using angels to proclaim the gospel? Why is the church not doing it? did they fall away completely? or were they taken up?)
either way, I see nothing of what you said which is found in scripture. so could you elaborate?
And again can you elaborate how the rest of the group are the dead spoken? Are you sure it is them, and not all people other than the ones martyr'd including us? is it the unsaved? I see nothing in scripture shich says who these people are. thus we can just guess.
lol. It is not there because you can not see it.
People have been ressurected and crowned in glory and are at the throneroom of Christ when he opens the seal..
Who are they?
Can we at least get these parts settled. a little at a time??
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
A parable is a form of speech to speak Gods spiritual truths on earth.
A prophesy is God foretelling things which were literally going to happen.
You do not interpret prophesy as yu would a parable. As prophesy is not a parable
L
letti
Guest
I am sorry these discussions can get nasty.I'f I speak on what I believe is the truth according to scripture, and then, I am getting no where it is best to quit and discuss something more productive that will not lead to strife.There are plenty of other topics, and I can pray for those who I want to help.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
L
letti
Guest
People will be killed for refusing to worship the Antichrist,along with a multitude of other disasters.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
L
letti
Guest
I believe we will face many trials as Christians we are hated.The devil and his army will always use his followers or whatever he can to hurt us.Or even have us killed.
L
letti
Guest
We need to stay close to God .At all times praying and living faithfully prepared for anything pray to never be deceived, by our enemy.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
And pray we are not so proud, that doctrines such as this, which are not salvic in nature, do not cause us to hate on others or condemn them.
E
eternally-gratefull
Guest
this is why we are to watch, satan the lion, sneeking around looking for that moment he can attack.. when we are week an not looking.
of course in many countries.. It is a death penalty to even proclaim christ now. so we have that also.
L
letti
Guest
Yes,I hear of all the persecutions going on all over the globe.This I have a awful feeling hasn't reached as far as it will stretch yet.The perilous times will arrive sooner or later for all.I have had my warnings.