The False Church
- Thread starter Slayer
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Are you a Jew under the law? In Exodus 16:23, we read - “This is what the Lord has said: Tomorrow is a Sabbath rest, a holy Sabbath to the Lord. Bake what you will bake today, and boil what you will boil; and lay up for yourselves all that remains, to be kept until morning." In context, who was Moses speaking to? The children of Israel (verses 1,2,3,6,9,10,12,15,17).
Once again, Sabbath keeping with all it's rules and regulations, was part of a covenant with Israel (Exodus 16:23, 29; 31:12-18; 35:1-3; Leviticus 19:30; 23:2-3, 32; Numbers 15:32-36; 28:1-10; 29:39-40; I Chronicles. 23:30-31; II Chronicles 31:2-4; Isaiah 1:13; Amos 8:5; Nehemiah 10:31) that is not binding on Christians under the New Covenant.
*Colossians 2:16 - Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.
How are believers disregarding what God did at creation by not disregarding what Paul said in Colossians 2:16-17?
L
LPT
Guest
And I believe as well Calvinist churches and armeninist churches are in the same boat.
In response to the OP.
1. I don't see a false church prophesied to come in the last days anywhere in the bible.
2. The apostasy is not a falling away from the faith or defection from the truth. It's a rebellion and an abandonment of a religious or political affiliation.
3. Apostasy didn't begin centuries ago and progress up to today. It's an 'event' and complete end-time event that will cause the man of sin to emerge.
4. Apostasy has nothing to do with Christians or the Church. It only involves the followers of the man of sin and his FALSE religion.
5. The ONLY places we can go to understand 'apostasy' is 2Thes. 2 and Acts 21 because that's the only two places the word is used in the NT.
6. "Falling away" is a poor translation of the word 'apostasia' which is the word 'forsake' and comes from a word meaning a 'divorce' or to defect and to abandon something.
The sad thing is that too many believe that the man of sin and his sidekick false prophet will emerge from within the Church.
1. I don't see a false church prophesied to come in the last days anywhere in the bible.
2. The apostasy is not a falling away from the faith or defection from the truth. It's a rebellion and an abandonment of a religious or political affiliation.
3. Apostasy didn't begin centuries ago and progress up to today. It's an 'event' and complete end-time event that will cause the man of sin to emerge.
4. Apostasy has nothing to do with Christians or the Church. It only involves the followers of the man of sin and his FALSE religion.
5. The ONLY places we can go to understand 'apostasy' is 2Thes. 2 and Acts 21 because that's the only two places the word is used in the NT.
6. "Falling away" is a poor translation of the word 'apostasia' which is the word 'forsake' and comes from a word meaning a 'divorce' or to defect and to abandon something.
The sad thing is that too many believe that the man of sin and his sidekick false prophet will emerge from within the Church.
Ok this is a good ? then what works for me most is my time alone with Him. in prayer and worship. for me early morning walks in the park before anybody is there. finding time to read and meditate on the word is invaluable. Getting together in a small environment home bible study a home prayer group is great too ( forsake not the gathering of the saints) we need each other.... I found that in the larger groups you can isolated. Just some things I found that work for me, I was a chronic relapser on drugs for a long time, I can relate to the revolving door as to say.
"Forsake"... "to defect"... "to abandon" are all verbs, but the phrase "he apostasia" is a noun (with a definite article), and means "The Departure" ('apostasia' at its most basic meaning, is a "departure [noun]"). The context tells us "what kind" of departure is intended.
Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling....Of course there are many people and Churches out there who are deceived and deceiving others but our main concern should be working out our own salvation. Trusting in the Lord and leaning upon him and not ours or anyone else's understanding. We don't put our complete faith in any man or any church, but we need to put our complete faith in the LORD and we wont have to worry about being deceived.
You've just admitted that you are pre-trib. Most resources whether the interlinear, Strong's, Thayer, or Vines do not translate the word as a departure. A departure is similar, but the passage makes no sense to me to translate it the way pre-tribbers do.
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, …
What DAY shall not come? Answer; The day of Christ and the gathering....
...except there come a falling away first,...
The word apostasia is translated forsake in Acts 21:21 and several other bible translations say "the rebellion". Thayer translates it a 'defection.' What you're saying is that 'apostasia' implies a departure from earth which isn't implied in the text.
...and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;...
The man of sin is revealed after the apostasia, it's what brings him on.
Though the word departure is an OK interpretation of the word apostasia, it by no means implies a rapture. It is better interpreted as to forsake, to divorce, to defect, and it also implies a revolt and rebellion.
Notice how the other religions define apostasy and how those definitions are similar. It's only the Christian definition that's different.
This is the web definition of apostasy.
Apostasy - (noun)
1. The act of abandoning a party or cause.
2. The state of having rejected your religious beliefs, political party, cause or sports team in favor of opposing beliefs, causes or teams.
3. A defection, renunciation, disaffiliation, abandonment or revolt from a previous association.
4. (Islamic definition) Rejection in word or deed of one's former religion.
5. (Christian definition) To fall away from the truth.
Apostasy is a political or religious revolt just like what's taking place in the Arab Islamic world today.
The pre-trib view renders the passage like this...
Let no man deceive you by any means: for the day of Christ and the gathering shall not come except the departure/gathering comes first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
I don't see that as accurate. It's not the message Paul was trying to convey. What you are saying is the Day of Christ and the gathering doesn't come until there's a gathering! The text clearly states the man of sin must first be revealed.
And I believe you "non existent third option" people have nothing to offer, anyone can say that's wrong and my way is right but when you ask them what's your way, they run with their tail tucked between their legs. I've had many people here say they don't agree with Calvin or Arminius, but none have a position of their own they just ignore the issue and pretend it doesn't exist.
The question is very simple, a 3 year old child could understand it. Do you believe you choose to save yourself by believing, or does God draw you to Himself as the Bible says He does. Calvin said the latter, while Arminius said we are saved by choosing to believe. Now what's this mysterious third option which you guys refuse to share with us.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
It is not helpful to frame it wrong. No one saves themselves that is just misrepresenting the doctrine.
Thanks for those words of wisdom, I will have to try harder to find time to spend in prayer and Bible study.
I tend to get spewed along with all the trials and tribulations of this world and when I look back I see that I have dedicated very little time to prayer and Bible study and reading.
But the doctrine teaches that you are saved by making a choice to believe, so you should go and learn a bit about Arminius as it is clear you don't know what he taught.
I would word it like this...
We choose to believe therefore God draws us to himself resulting in Salvation. Grace covers everybody, however, not everybody chooses to accept that grace therefore not everybody is saved. Calvinism just complicates things.
U
UnderGrace
Guest
I know enough.
It will not matter, even if I can came back with exact quotes from his writing, anything outside your framework is heresy.
Incorrect. That is NOT what it would be saying (and not what I am saying it is saying
).To have it say what you are suggesting, is to wholly skip clear back over verse 2 (to verse 1), in order to explain what is being talked about in verse 3. (So a grammatical error, in addition to mis-defining other phrases, even besides the Greek word "apostasia").
Verse 2 is basically saying for the Thessalonians not to let anyone convince them that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (the phrase "the day of the Lord" is what the Greek shows there). "The day of the Lord" refers only ever to an EARTHLY time period (and not merely a 24-hr "day"). They wrongly believed (or were at least at risk of believing) that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"... that is what the Greek word means, there... and this would be completely reasonable of them to think this (though wrong), BECAUSE of their PRESENT and ONGOING, NEGATIVE experiences they were undergoing, per chapter 1. [this was their FOCUS].
Paul is telling them, in v.3, no, "that day [the EARTHLY time period slated to entail judgments, etc (FROM verse TWO)] will NOT be present if not shall have come The Departure FIRST [now, THAT is, the split-second-moment EVENT of verse ONE] AND the man of sin be revealed" (he is "revealed" at the START of the 7-yr earthly time-period; 2Th2 is covering all seven years' time).
So it would NOT be saying what you are suggesting that I'm saying it would be.
EDIT TO ADD: Paul is explain how one thing relates TIME-WISE to another. They wrongly believed "the day of the Lord [an earthly time period consisting of judgments] IS PRESENT." He's explaining why that is NOT SO.
When we get the fundamental facts wrong, we end up with a different Gospel to the one described in the Bible.
I used to listen to Sermons by Charles Lawson, on sermonaudio.com I liked his sermons until I found out that he is anti Calvin. I asked our pastor if I can still listen to him and he told me most certainly not, he quoted Galatians 5:9 "a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump" he said we need to watch out for the false prophets who pervert the Gospel by adding their own private view to it.
Your pastor is protecting his flock from any rays of truth entering their thinking. To sever fellowship because one is anti-Calvinist is foolhardy. We are to fellowship with those of like precious faith. If they have a testimony of how they were saved that aligns with the bible we are able to have fellowship with them.
How would your pastor know if the anti-Calvinist was in your terms elect or not?
For the cause of Christ
Roger
The text say's "the Day of Christ." The interlinear says, "the day of the anointed." The word Christ means Anointed. Strong's says, the word Christ in "the Day of Christ", is "Christos".Incorrect. That is NOT what it would be saying (and not what I am saying it is saying
To have it say what you are suggesting, is to wholly skip clear back over verse 2 (to verse 1), in order to explain what is being talked about in verse 3. (So a grammatical error, in addition to mis-defining other phrases, even besides the Greek word "apostasia").
Verse 2 is basically saying for the Thessalonians not to let anyone convince them that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT" (the phrase "the day of the Lord" is what the Greek shows there). "The day of the Lord" refers only ever to an EARTHLY time period (and not merely a 24-hr "day"). They wrongly believed (or were at least at risk of believing) that "the day of the Lord IS PRESENT"... that is what the Greek word means, there... and this would be completely reasonable of them to think this (though wrong), BECAUSE of their PRESENT and ONGOING, NEGATIVE experiences they were undergoing, per chapter 1. [this was their FOCUS].
Paul is telling them, in v.3, no, "that day [the EARTHLY time period slated to entail judgments, etc (FROM verse TWO)] will NOT be present if not shall have come The Departure FIRST [now, THAT is, the split-second-moment EVENT of verse ONE] AND the man of sin be revealed" (he is "revealed" at the START of the 7-yr earthly time-period; 2Th2 is covering all seven years' time).
So it would NOT be saying what you are suggesting that I'm saying it would be.
Christ = "anointed"
- Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God
- anointed
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
"Except" is a conjunction particle and means 'unless'. Thayer says, "a particle of negation". A conjunction is what's added to a statement opposed to a previous statement or was previously said. That means the verse should be accepted as it is written. Meaning...
The Day of Christ and the gathering will NOT come (negation)-unless/until/except there's first an apostasy. THEN the man of sin is disclosed.
We don't know who Gods elect are, only the believer himself and God know but nobody else can be sure.
Here is that heretic Charles Lawson below trying to convince his Church that they are in safe hands with him. I feel sorry for those poor people in his Church, he's leading them all astray. I was going to put a link up to one of his may attacks on Calvinism, but I won't in case you are led into further deception by him.
My pastor told me it's not good for me to fellowship with people like him, because they can poison the mind.