The False Teaching (& Truth) of what happens at the Rapture.

[ewq1938]

That's highly plausible.

Pre-tribbers are expecting God to come first before the anti-Christ. That means when the anti-Christ shows up giving out his mark on peoples' foreheads, the pre-tribbers will be expecting this: Revelation 22:4 4And they shall see his face; and his name shall be in their foreheads.

And they might think this is happenin

Can't agree with you Abs. Look again Matthew at 24:38,39,40,41.

38 "until the day that Noah entered the ark" (too late, the stroke of judgment has come)
39 "until the flood came and took them all away" (judgment is now underway)
40 "taken" (a phenomenon occurring as a result of Judgement)
41 "taken" (a phenomenon occurring as a result of Judgement)

took them - taken - taken

It's pretty clear to me.....this has to be a judgment phenomenon.

You are confusing two different words that mean took/take.

airō is not same as paralambanō

G3880
παραλαμβάνω
paralambanō
par-al-am-ban'-o
From G3844 and G2983; to receive near, that is, associate with oneself (in any familiar or intimate act or relation); by analogy to assume an office; figuratively to learn: - receive, take (unto, with).
Total KJV occurrences: 50

This is another way to speak of the rapture, the gathering of saints to Christ. airō is used for those whose lives were taken by the flood.

 

[ewq1938]

And Jesus is definitely not a polygamist.

God married sisters in the OT. The parable of the ten virgins is about one man marrying multiple brides.

These 10 virgins are clearly bridesmaids are definitely not THE (ONE and only) BRIDE.

You're breaking the Jewish wedding ceremony structure and protocols. The bridegroom comes for bride/brides.

Furthermore v. 1 one says that the bridesmaids went out to MEET the bridegroom. In a wedding rapture is the groom who invades the house of the bride.

Bridesmaids is not used in parable.

The bride definitely does not come out to meet Him.

You're breaking the Jewish wedding ceremony structure and protocols. The bride or brides very much do go to him when he is announced.


Barnes:

Shall be likened - Or shall resemble. The meaning is, “When the Son of man returns to judgment, it will be as it was in the case of ten virgins in a marriage ceremony.” The coming of Christ to receive his people to himself is often represented under the similitude of a marriage, the church being represented as his spouse or bride. The marriage relation is the most tender, firm, and endearing of any known on earth, and on this account it suitably represents the union of believers to Christ. See Mat_9:15; Joh_3:29; Rev_19:7; Rev_21:9; Eph_5:25-32.
Ten virgins - These virgins, doubtless, represent the church - a name given to it because it is pure and holy. See 2Co_11:2; Lam_1:15; Lam_2:13.

 

[cv5]

Nope
Re read it.
The SETTING is BEFORE the flood.
( you left it out)
37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
38 For as in the days that were BEFORE THE FLOOD they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

That ain't going away.

Abs....see the related content in the parallel passages in Luke 17. Here, the context and time/spatial relationships are EMINENTLY CLEAR...!

When you compare to Matt 24, you have to agree that there is no possible way to tease out a joyful rapture event out of those parallel passages....

Luke 17:26-37

26And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, thus also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27They were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until that day Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all.

28Likewise, as it came to pass in the days of Lot, they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29and in that day Lot went out from Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed all.

30It will be according to these in that day the Son of Man is revealed. 31In that day, the one who will be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, do not let him come down to take them away; and likewise the one in the field, do not let him return to the things behind. 32Remember Lot’s wife! (do not linger when judgement is imminent!) 33Whoever may seek to save his life will lose it; but whoever will lose it will preserve it. 34I say to you, in that night (the GT...)there will be two upon one bed: The one will be taken, and the other will be left. 35There will be two women grinding at the same place: The one will be taken, and the other will be left.”

37And answering, they say to Him, “Where, Lord?” (where are they taken to?)

And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered together.”
==========================================================================================================
Look for the vultures, and you will find the bodies of those who were "taken".

Nothing even close to a rapture here. Only fleeing from earthly catastrophes, similar to Sodom and the Flood. Some take heed and flee, some linger and perish.

 

[Absolutely]

Heavens no. You're breaking the Jewish wedding ceremony structure and protocols. Which is the key to understanding this parable. And Jesus is definitely not a polygamist.

These 10 virgins are clearly bridesmaids are definitely not THE (ONE and only) BRIDE.

Furthermore v. 1 one says that the bridesmaids went out to MEET the bridegroom. In a wedding rapture is the groom who invades the house of the bride. The bride definitely does not come out to meet Him.

The marriage of verse 10 is certainly the wedding feast.

Nowhere does it say bridesmaid.
It says what it says.
Jesus is not returning for one person.
If you think Jesus returns for one person, who would that be.
Of course there are multi persons in the one bride.
No way are you going to convince anyone that the bride can not be multiple people.

 

[Absolutely]

Abs....see the related content in the parallel passages in Luke 17. Here, the context and time/spatial relationships are EMINENTLY CLEAR...!

When you compare to Matt 24, you have to agree that there is no possible way to tease out a joyful rapture event out of those parallel passages....

Luke 17:26-37

26And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, thus also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27They were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until that day Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all.

28Likewise, as it came to pass in the days of Lot, they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29and in that day Lot went out from Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed all.

30It will be according to these in that day the Son of Man is revealed. 31In that day, the one who will be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, do not let him come down to take them away; and likewise the one in the field, do not let him return to the things behind. 32Remember Lot’s wife! (do not linger when judgement is imminent!) 33Whoever may seek to save his life will lose it; but whoever will lose it will preserve it. 34I say to you, in that night (the GT...)there will be two upon one bed: The one will be taken, and the other will be left. 35There will be two women grinding at the same place: The one will be taken, and the other will be left.”

37And answering, they say to Him, “Where, Lord?” (where are they taken to?)

And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered together.”
==========================================================================================================
Look for the vultures, and you will find the bodies of those who were "taken".

Nothing even close to a rapture here. Only fleeing from earthly catastrophes, similar to Sodom and the Flood. Some take heed and flee, some linger and perish.

Not what it says.
I already posted it and you edited out " before the flood" and "watch and be ready"

As far as i can tell you are placing the time frame postrib.
( after the flood).
At the coming on white horses.
That DEFINITELY will not work at all.
No way is there ANY time frame in the picture of Noah of ANYTHING in the parable after the flood.

It says " before the flood" and what happened to noah.
You have left that out at least twice and the "watching and waiting and being ready "also.

BTW...what are they watching for, since you say they are "bridesmaids"? ( which is not in the parable).

You are saying the groom leaves his wife and meets these bridesmaids and takes them into a room with a door called the marriage room , and shuts the door?

 

[Absolutely]

Abs....see the related content in the parallel passages in Luke 17. Here, the context and time/spatial relationships are EMINENTLY CLEAR...!

When you compare to Matt 24, you have to agree that there is no possible way to tease out a joyful rapture event out of those parallel passages....

Luke 17:26-37

26And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, thus also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27They were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until that day Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all.

28Likewise, as it came to pass in the days of Lot, they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29and in that day Lot went out from Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed all.

30It will be according to these in that day the Son of Man is revealed. 31In that day, the one who will be on the housetop, and his goods in the house, do not let him come down to take them away; and likewise the one in the field, do not let him return to the things behind. 32Remember Lot’s wife! (do not linger when judgement is imminent!) 33Whoever may seek to save his life will lose it; but whoever will lose it will preserve it. 34I say to you, in that night (the GT...)there will be two upon one bed: The one will be taken, and the other will be left. 35There will be two women grinding at the same place: The one will be taken, and the other will be left.”

37And answering, they say to Him, “Where, Lord?” (where are they taken to?)

And He said to them, “Where the body is, there also the vultures will be gathered together.”
==========================================================================================================
Look for the vultures, and you will find the bodies of those who were "taken".

Nothing even close to a rapture here. Only fleeing from earthly catastrophes, similar to Sodom and the Flood. Some take heed and flee, some linger and perish.

In the story of lot nobody was taken post judgement.
You have the one taken/ left in a postjudgement setting
That means ( according to your model) half earths population goes missing, "taken", and you are saying the "wicked" are taken?
That also means you have a wicked satan worshiper in a bed with a born again blood bought believer...with the wicked taken and the saint stays in bed....but Jesus tells the saints to be ready.

Is that what you believe?
The one taken is a satan worshipper with the mark of the devil in his forehead?

 

[Absolutely]

I also think there is a faithful/unfaithful remnant. The glorified faithful remnant described as 'they that turn many to righteousness' in Daniel 12:1-3 will be the ones sharing the gospel with those who are in danger of becoming apostates (Isaiah 60:1-3, Mark 16:15, John 14:12). I believe in the possibility of apostasy.

Jesus said the 'gospel would be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all the nations, and then the end will come.' Some view 'the end' as the start of Daniel's 70th week. I view 'the end' as the coming great tribulation in the Matthew 24:15 as the antichrist is revealed in 2 Thess 2:3.

The harvest would give these called out ones an opportunity to repent and return to the Lord before persecution comes from Mystery Babylon (Rev. 2:10, Rev. 17:6). There is the command for souls to 'come out of her my people' in Rev. 18:4.

Some souls will become martyrs for the Lord and they end up suffering loss. It is the martyrs of Mystery Babylon who are part of the 'rest of the dead' in Revelation 20:5. They do not live again until after the millennial reign.

It is probable that this harvest is the event that Ken Peters saw in his dream. Ken saw the resurrection of the dead but did not witness the rapture in the dream. It is clear 'we shall all be changed' according to 1 Cor. 15:51. The glorified faithful remnant and the martyrs of Mystery Babylon would both be caught up in the 'child' harpazo of Rev. 12:5 in this theory. I view this strict wall of separation that the 'church age' of the pre-trib theory has placed between Christians and other saints as somewhat problematic. I see Daniel's 70th week as a transitional period. This harvest/rapture within the tribulation of Daniel's 70th week is more likely in my view.

"Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent (Rev. 2:5). "This final harvest would be a final opportunity for those who are lukewarm to repent and return to the Lord before the rapture occurs.

No
Ken peters saw graves opening up and people going up PRETRIB.

You need to watch it again.

 

[cv5]

In the story of lot nobody was taken post judgement.
You have the one taken/ left in a postjudgement setting
That means ( according to your model) half earths population goes missing, "taken", and you are saying the "wicked" are taken?
That also means you have a wicked satan worshiper in a bed with a born again blood bought believer...with the wicked taken and the saint stays in bed....but Jesus tells the saints to be ready.

Is that what you believe?
The one taken is a satan worshipper with the mark of the devil in his forehead?

Abs.......they aren't called the synoptic gospels for nothing. Those passages have nothing whatsoever to do with any rapture they have to do with the great tribulation and Israel.

 

[TheLordIsMyRedeemer]

No
Ken peters saw graves opening up and people going up PRETRIB.

I’m glad you interpret the Lord’s command to repent as being applicable to a current lukewarm portion of the church. I started reading Revelation in 2017 and used to be part of the harlot system of Mystery Babylon.

My interpretation of Daniel’s 70th week with regard to the church allows for the rapture to occur within the week. I do agree with you that the church is removed prior to the Day of the Lord. However, I don’t view it as a pre-tribulation event. It is my view that the Bible only gives a general time frame for the DOL.

Yea, I might enjoy reading the transcript again. Ken describes the resurrection of the dead occurring.

“All those who came out of the graves just disappeared. I never saw them go up into the clouds. They just vanished.
I did not see one single living person changed into a new body. I did not see any changes coming to any living person.”

He then speaks of a period two weeks later. “The new world leader then appeared on television. He spoke with great eloquence and charisma.”

I don’t view the opening of the first seal as occurring at the beginning of Daniel’s 70th week. I don’t equate the time of God’s wrath (DOL) with the opening of the first five seals. In the first 5 seals, there is no mention of the wrath of God. I view this as the time that Jesus calls "the beginning of sorrows" and have looked at the parallels between Matt. 24/Rev.6. The word ‘wrath’ is mentioned nine times in connection to God after the opening of the 6th seal. This is part of the reason I see the harpazo of the ‘child’ of Rev 12:5 as being a pre-wrath event and not an event prior to Daniel’s 70th week.

I don’t see there needing to be exactly 3 1/2 years from the revealing of the antichrist until the midpoint. I’ve seen abundant signs from Matthew 24:4-8 and Israel is close to being at war with Iran. The church is having to endure now in this time of tribulation as many have had to leave their jobs over vaccine mandates. I know some see it as inter-age trials/tribulation that are not part of the tribulation of Daniel’s 70th week. I believe that the Bible teaches expectancy as well as imminence.

Yes, the resurrection/rapture will occur very near/prior to the revealing of the antichrist as described in Ken’s dream. I don’t think the opening of the first seal begins Daniel’s 70th week. I don’t call it a ‘pre-tribulation’ event because I see the church present during the ‘time of sorrows’ within Daniel’s 70th week.

The following excerpt describes this 70th week of Daniel as a ‘transitional period.’

“First, with the birth of the Church (Acts 2), God did not stop his working with Israel. Bible scholars have always looked at the book of Acts to be a book of transition from Israel to the Church--from the age of law to the age of grace. The first converts were Jews (Acts 2). Early believers continued to go to the temple for worship (Acts 3:1).

Secondly, it would be impossible to defend the position that a Jewish man, who was deemed righteous and acceptable before God under the OT economy the day before Christ died, was unrighteous and rejected the day after Christ's death. The period after the death and resurrection of Christ was the passing of the old economy to the new one--but both economies co-existed for a period of time.

The 70th week will be exactly the same. It will be a transitional period, in reverse this time, from the Church to Israel. As Israel entered the Church age, the Church will enter the 70th week.

The Church will enter the 70th week and co-exist with Israel. God will have purposes for both, cleansing for the church and judgment and salvation for the Jews. Then both will live and reign with Christ.”

I’ve been looking more into various interpretations of Rev 3:10. Alexander Reese says this about Rev 3:10:

"the use of ek in Rev 3:10 distinctly implies that the Overcomer would be in the hour of tribulation; the promise refers either to removal from out of the midst of it, or preservation through it."​

“It is very interesting to note, that there is only one other time in the entire NT that tereo ek is used. And that is found in John 17:15.”

 

[Evmur]

Lets see what it really says
Mat 25 ( still in the " before judgement" setting)
10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut
13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
Mat 24
38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

The 5 wise go into the wedding chamber.

The virgins are vividly depicted as blood nought born again believers.
Not only that, they are placed in the same timing as the one taken/left ( before the flood)

To top it off both of those groups have the same ratio of 50 / 50.

BOTH GROUPS are IMMEDIATELY framed in
WATCHING, WAITING, BEING READY
Without mistake. Both are the rapture.

But you are trying to make some case that some unknown group goes into the marriage room and shuts the door before the trib that are watching and waiting for Jesus.

But for some strange reason your doctrine prevents those blood bought born again saints from being christians.

The wise virgins are nowhere said to be blood bought, you made that up. Moreover they did not watch and wait any more than the unwise. The scripture said THEY ALL slumbered and slept. They brought oil with them. These are [as far as I can tell] Jews of the 10 tribes that are among the dispersed in the nations.

In Daniel he speaks about the resurrection of the Jews some unto glory but some unto everlasting shame.

 

[Absolutely]

Abs.......they aren't called the synoptic gospels for nothing. Those passages have nothing whatsoever to do with any rapture they have to do with the great tribulation and Israel.

We see lot.
We DO NOT see lot staying in the judgement or delivered out post judgement.
Both he and noah are depicted in TIMING.
BOTH are.
Timing.
The timing is deliverance PRIOR to judgement.
NEITHER are taken away post judgement.

Neither are a postjudgement removal dynamic

 

[Absolutely]

The wise virgins are nowhere said to be blood bought, you made that up. Moreover they did not watch and wait any more than the unwise. The scripture said THEY ALL slumbered and slept. They brought oil with them. These are [as far as I can tell] Jews of the 10 tribes that are among the dispersed in the nations.

In Daniel he speaks about the resurrection of the Jews some unto glory but some unto everlasting shame.

lol

They have oil.
They are virgins
They have light
They are waiting for Jesus
They go with Jesus into the marriage room

And you say they are what?
Sinners?

 

[Absolutely]

The wise virgins are nowhere said to be blood bought, you made that up. Moreover they did not watch and wait any more than the unwise. The scripture said THEY ALL slumbered and slept. They brought oil with them. These are [as far as I can tell] Jews of the 10 tribes that are among the dispersed in the nations.

In Daniel he speaks about the resurrection of the Jews some unto glory but some unto everlasting shame.

You just jettisoned the facts of the parable.
Amazing

 

[FreeGrace2]

No
Ken peters saw graves opening up and people going up PRETRIB.

That would be a dream or hallucination. Not real.

 

[cv5]

In the story of lot nobody was taken post judgement.
You have the one taken/ left in a postjudgement setting
That means ( according to your model) half earths population goes missing, "taken", and you are saying the "wicked" are taken?
That also means you have a wicked satan worshiper in a bed with a born again blood bought believer...with the wicked taken and the saint stays in bed....but Jesus tells the saints to be ready.

Is that what you believe?
The one taken is a satan worshipper with the mark of the devil in his forehead?

All I'm saying is that the "taken" - "left" scenario has nothing to do with a rapture. The ones "taken" are actually taken meaning to die in midst of judgment.

 

[ewq1938]

All I'm saying is that the "taken" - "left" scenario has nothing to do with a rapture. The ones "taken" are actually taken meaning to die in midst of judgment.

That's not what the word used there means.

taken
3880

3880 paralambano {par-al-am-ban'-o}

from 3844 and 2983; TDNT - 4:11,495; v

AV - take 30, receive 15, take unto 2, take up 2, take away 1; 50

1) to take to, to take with one's self, to join to one's self
1a) an associate, a companion
1b) metaph.
1b1) to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be
1b2) not to reject, not to withhold obedience
2) to receive something transmitted
2a) an office to be discharged
2b) to receive with the mind
2b1) by oral transmission: of the authors from whom the
tradition proceeds
2b2) by the narrating to others, by instruction of teachers
(used of disciples)

"to take with one's self"
"to join to one's self"
"an associate"
"a companion"
"not to reject"

Sounds like rapture huh? That's because it is. The one taken and one left happens when Christ returns. Christ takes the one and leaves the other. It's that left/rejected one that suffers vials of wrath.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ It depends on WHO is DOING the taking, and TO WHAT END / PURPOSE (whether to positive ends or to negative ends, depends on CONTEXT)... because, note...

...G3880 is also used in the following passage:


Mat 27:27
Then the soldiers of the governor took [G3880] Jesus into the common hall, and gathered unto him the whole band of soldiers.

Mat 27:28
And they stripped him, and put on him a scarlet robe.

Mat 27:29
And when they had platted a crown of thorns, they put it upon his head, and a reed in his right hand: and they bowed the knee before him, and mocked him, saying, Hail, King of the Jews!

Mat 27:30
And they spit upon him, and took the reed, and smote him on the head.

Mat 27:31
And after that they had mocked him, they took the robe off from him, and put his own raiment on him, and led him away to crucify him. [<--this was the "end / purpose" of their taking Him]




In the case of Matthew 24 (under discussion), Matt24:3's QUESTION to Jesus was BASED ON what He had ALREADY spoken to His disciples about in Matthew 13:24,30,39,40,49-50 (re: "the END [singular] of the AGE [singular]"... when the ANGELS will "REAP")... In this CONTEXT, it is the angels who will be tasked with "gather[ing] OUT... all things that offend, and them which do iniquity" (and to "gather ye FIRST the TARES")

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Luke 17:26-37
26And as it came to pass in the days of Noah, thus also will it be in the days of the Son of Man: 27They were eating, they were drinking, they were marrying, they were being given in marriage, until that day Noah entered into the ark, and the flood came and destroyed all.
28Likewise, as it came to pass in the days of Lot, they were eating, they were drinking, they were buying, they were selling, they were planting, they were building; 29and in that day Lot went out from Sodom, it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed all.

Right. The parallel passage (to that of Matt24's)...

... the words, twice here repeated, "and DESTROYED [G622 - apollymi ] ALL," is not what takes place following "our Rapture" (to those unbelievers who won't take part in the Rapture event, because they've not come to faith in Christ before that point in time).




Instead, 1Th5:3 [re: the INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" of MANY MORE which will follow on from there!], 2Th2:10-12 ["that they should believe the LIE / the FALSE / the PSEUDEI"], 2Th1:8/Lk18:8/Lam2:3-4/2Th2:[7b-]8a,9a [speaking of a period of TIME unfolding upon the earth], etc, etc... (too many connecting passages, to list out here); many ppl will also be coming to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"

 

[Evmur]

lol

They have oil.
They are virgins
They have light
They are waiting for Jesus
They go with Jesus into the marriage room

And you say they are what?
Sinners?

They were not waiting for Jesus, they slept and slumbered with everybody else until the cry went up "Behold the Bridegroom cometh and His bride as some ancient texts have it. The church is the bride.

 

[ewq1938]

They were not waiting for Jesus

Yes they were. In the Olivet Discourse Christ listed many examples of what it would be like when he returns and this parable is one of them.

, they slept and slumbered with everybody else until the cry went up

Most people are asleep at midnight. There is nothing wrong about anyone being asleep in the context of parable.