The "Five-Fold Ministry"

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is today's "Five-Fold Ministry" legitimate?

  • yes

    Votes: 8 80.0%

  • no

    Votes: 2 20.0%
  • Total voters
    10
  • Poll closed .
1still_waters said:
Eh there were two James in the original 12 apostles...
I think it was one of them.
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James the brother of Jesus was an apostle, and prominent leader of the Early church whether he wrote James or not (which i believe he did). So if there were more than 12 apostles in the first century church then your 12 and only 12 apostles crumbles down ;)

I guess some people choose to believe what they are going to believe regardless of what the Bible actually teaches.
 
4runner said:
James the brother of Jesus was an apostle, and prominent leader of the Early church whether he wrote James or not (which i believe he did). So if there were more than 12 apostles in the first century church then your 12 and only 12 apostles crumbles down ;)

I guess some people choose to believe what they are going to believe regardless of what the Bible actually teaches.
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Can you show me where it clearly says James the brother of Jesus was an apostle?
 
www.christdeaf.org/bible
[SIZE=+3]The Brothers of Jesus[/SIZE]

[SIZE=+1]James had a top leadership role in the Jerusalem church. So we may safely guess that the author of the New Testament letter of James was written by Jesus' younger brother.
[/SIZE]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]I, James, am writing this letter. I serve God and the Lord Jesus Christ. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]
[/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif][SIZE=+1]I am sending this letter to you, the 12 tribes that are scattered among the nations. (James 1:1) [/SIZE][/FONT]
​
[SIZE=+1]
[SIZE=+2]Did Jesus' and James' other three brothers become church leaders? [/SIZE]

Yes. Paul mentions "the Lord's brothers" in a list with "the other apostles."
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]Don't we have the right to take a believing wife with us when we travel? The other apostles do. The Lord's brothers do. Peter does. [/FONT][/SIZE](1 Corinthians 9:5)
​
[SIZE=+1]Judas (son of Joseph and Mary) is probably the author of the New Testament letter of "Jude" (the original Greek text says the author is "Judas")
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+1][FONT=Helvetica, Arial, sans-serif]I, Jude [Judas], am writing this letter. I serve Jesus Christ. I am a brother of James. (Jude 1)[/FONT][/SIZE]
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[SIZE=+1]Notice how both James and Judas, do not mention that they are Jesus' brothers. Rather, they humbly describe themselves as His servants.[/SIZE]
 
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James had a top leadership role in the Jerusalem church. So we may safely guess that the author of the New Testament letter of James was written by Jesus' younger brother.
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Not very conclusive seeing Jesus appointed two apostles names James...

1 Summoning His 12 disciples, He gave them authority over unclean [a] spirits, to drive them out and to heal every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the 12 apostles:
First, Simon, who is called Peter,
and Andrew his brother;
James the son of Zebedee,
and John his brother;
3 Philip and Bartholomew; [c]
Thomas and Matthew the tax collector;
James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; [d]

4 Simon the Zealot, [e] and Judas Iscariot, [f]
who also betrayed Him.

Judas (son of Joseph and Mary) is probably the author of the New Testament letter of "Jude" (the original Greek text says the author is "Judas")


I, Jude [Judas], am writing this letter. I serve Jesus Christ. I am a brother of James. (Jude 1)
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So we have a 'guess' and a 'probably'.

If anything this backs up my previous assertion about JUDE being the apostle Judas described in Luke and he's saying brother of James (one of the original 12) in a spiritual sense.
 
Since you like copying other people's stuff then pasting it, acting as if it's a sense of authority, feel free to copy and paste my stuff. :P jk
 
1still_waters said:
Not very conclusive seeing Jesus appointed two apostles names James...

1 Summoning His 12 disciples, He gave them authority over unclean [a] spirits, to drive them out and to heal every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the 12 apostles:
First, Simon, who is called Peter,
and Andrew his brother;
James the son of Zebedee,
and John his brother;
3 Philip and Bartholomew; [c]
Thomas and Matthew the tax collector;
James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; [d]

4 Simon the Zealot, [e] and Judas Iscariot, [f]
who also betrayed Him.


So we have a 'guess' and a 'probably'.

If anything this backs up my previous assertion about JUDE being the apostle Judas described in Luke and he's saying brother of James (one of the original 12) in a spiritual sense.
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So your claiming the ''Jude'' was not an apostle even though he wrote scripture, and help lay the foundation?

and that James the brother of Jesus was not an apostles either even though he and Peter were to main leaders of the first church?

If you answer yes to these it does nothing but show the lengths you will go to hold your position, nothing more.

However if you answer no, they were apostles then your whole theory of 12 and only 12 comes crashing down.

Seems like a loose, loose situation to me.

I am off to bed.

God bless you brother?
 
zone said:
we're all CHRISTS?

do we take our pick?
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You forgot the Nicean Council Jesus; with a picture of three gorilla-glued God-people as siamese conjoined triplets, and a nice little description that justifies manufacturing a definition for a term ("person") to make God into a triplicate of man's image.
 
4runner said:
So your claiming the ''Jude'' was not an apostle even though he wrote scripture, and help lay the foundation?
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You little copy and paste up above just backed up my assertion that the Jude of the book of Jude is the apostle Judas from Luke!


12 During those days He went out to the mountain to pray and spent all night in prayer to God. 13 When daylight came, He summoned His disciples, and He chose 12 of them&md;He also named them apostles:
14 Simon, whom He also named Peter,
and Andrew his brother;
James and John;
Philip and Bartholomew;

15 Matthew and Thomas;
James the son of Alphaeus,
and Simon called the Zealot;

16 Judas the son of James,
and Judas Iscariot, who became a traitor

and that James the brother of Jesus was not an apostles either even though he and Peter were to main leaders of the first church?
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Wait, Jesus brother James being a major leader doesn't imply he's an apostle. It just implies he's a major leader.

I think you're trying to impose tradition on scripture.

No where does it firmly say James the brother of Jesus was an apostle.

Quit relying on tradition.
 
4runner I'm sticking to my position because it seems more firmly rooted in scripture as opposed to yours which is rooted in someone elses 'guess' and 'probably', and based on tradition.

I see Jesus calling two James as apostles. I don't see his brother James called an apostle in scripture with absolute certainty, so I can't make that leap and say that he was an apostle. I could make that leap if tradition and 'guess' and 'probably' were enough to rest on.
 
1still_waters said:
I think you're trying to impose tradition on scripture.
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And maybe you refuse the plain meaning of scripture to hold to your tradition

Galatians 1:19 But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother.
No where does it firmly say James the brother of Jesus was an apostle.
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Right above you

Quit relying on tradition.
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I would say the same to you.

The fact is I have learned nothing through tradition, but through my own study of scripture
 
1still_waters said:
4runner I'm sticking to my position because it seems more firmly rooted in scripture as opposed to yours which is rooted in someone elses 'guess' and 'probably', and based on tradition.
Click to expand...
Still, I'm sticking to my position because it seems more firmly rooted in scripture as opposed to yours which is rooted in someone elses 'guess' and 'probably', and based on tradition.
 
Galatians 1:19 doesn't imply that James the brother of Jesus was an apostle.

It just signifies the importance of James the Lord's brother in the church.

Since Jesus clearly called 12 apostles. Since 12 apostles and only 12 will be names on the foundation referenced in Revelation, it's safe to assume James the Lord's brother wasn't an apostle! Rather mention of him here is used by Paul to show that he DID indeed meet with a significant person in the church.
 
i'm confused....why does the number of apostles matter as much as if God is still sending them or not?

the foundation is not only apostles but Jesus and the prophets. Jesus is referred to as an Apostle. I think the key point should be made that Jesus only died once and the foundation is only laid once by the early church and now we are living stones built upon the foundation of Jesus, the Apostles (no matter what number you want to say they are) and the prophets.

to lay new foundation would make the whole building unsteady.

I advocate speaking about how the living stones are made to fit together to becoming a functioning body of Christ, but that could be just my bias.

What are the difference between these terms/offices: Apostle, prophet, evangelist, bishop, deacon, teacher, preacher, etc?

what is the difference between being blessed for a time with a spiritual gift and holding a spiritual office?


Acts 14:14
But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this, they tore their clothes and ran in among the multitude, crying out

Hebrews 3:1
[ The Son Was Faithful ] Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of the heavenly calling, consider the Apostle and High Priest of our confession, Christ Jesus,

Galatians 1:19
But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord’s brother.
 
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MaggieMye said:
Who here said no pastors or teachers? (SL)
Well....how can you eliminate only one or two of the FIVE mentioned?? They were put down TOGETHER...the FIVE. If you eliminate one or two, apostles and prophets, then you MUST eliminate them all. It's always been a packaged deal. And we know this because NOWHERE is there any verse that says one or the other is to cease. Just because they were not recognized by the church at large (after Constantine) does not mean they have been eliminated by God. He did NOT eliminate them in His word!!
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SOME were to be apostles (the biblical apostles) some teachers and prophets.

No package deal.
 
Strangelove said:
SOME were to be apostles (the biblical apostles) some teachers and prophets.

No package deal.
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"A package deal" seems to be the reasoning of men in the sense that a "deal" was struck between two or more people. To say we are 'one' in Christ speaks of the first disciples leading up to this present time in each of us.
 
GaryMac said:
But if the same SPirit is in you who was in Christ Jesus,then you are all of these things.
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so we all have apostolic authority?
we all receive direct new and authoritative revelation from God about His Plan?
what is the Bible for?
 
yaright said:
"A package deal" seems to be the reasoning of men in the sense that a "deal" was struck between two or more people. To say we are 'one' in Christ speaks of the first disciples leading up to this present time in each of us.
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one foundation already laid.
no more apostles, no more prophets.

sola scriptura.
 
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