The Gospel of Grace - Boasting in God and His Gospel (Another Hyper-Grace Thread)

[JGIG]

I don't receive the testimony of men because the Testimony of God is greater. And I also do not need to look up what Joseph Prince teaches because his disciples are flooding the forum with tons of his false doctrine.

So . . . you're telling us that Joseph Prince teaches false stuff . . . but you do not need to look up what Joseph Prince teaches.

Huh?

How then, could you possibly know that what he teaches is false?

I'm beginning to think that you not only don't read what we write, but you don't read what YOU write!

-JGIG

 

[Willie-T]

So . . . you're telling us that Joseph Prince teaches false stuff . . . but you do not need to look up what Joseph Prince teaches.

Huh?

How then, could you possibly know that what he teaches is false?

I'm beginning to think that you not only don't read what we write, but you don't read what YOU write!

-JGIG

The logic sometimes used here is mind-boggling, isn't it?

 

[Jimbone]

Who here is doing that?

Please, if anyone is, copy it here and post the link.

-JGIG

I'm talking about always focusing on the phrases like "we are sinners, we will always sin, we are incapable of sin (which I think is COMPLETELY untrue by the way and think it's scary that you think that's what Romans 6 is say) without EVER talking about the COMPLETE change that happens upon regeneration. Some are so fast to jump on anyone that even suggest we will strive to live more holy by the power of His Spirit, yet so very fast to "lift up" sinning after we are in Christ. I understand it is a struggle for the rest of or lives against the flesh, but not the kind we are in bondage to, the kind we freely chose to do and WANT to do by His Spirit, and it IS a "struggle".

I exsplained this the other day, and to the truly reborn believer this makes total sense and I agree. To those in the church that may not be regenerated, or to the genuine seeker it can be VERY misleading, in fact almost landed me in hell to be perfectly honest. All praise and glory to Him it didn't, but it only tells half the story and that is my concern with it. You NEVER talk about the TOTAL CHANGE that WILL come when the power of our great Creators grace comes into us making us ALL NEW. And it absolutely does not take our free will, nor our ability to sin, if that was true why does it grieve me so much when I do sin now? Why do I ask Him for forgiveness when I do so, not out of fear of being "kicked out of the family", but out of my love for Him saving a wretch like me and my WANT to live pleasing to bring His name glory? Why is that, if He just loves everything I do and I can do no wrong?

I don't necessarily think anyone is trying to glorify sin, but when you message is "It's ok to sin, it's ok to sin, it's ok to sin", and never even hints at a change in behavior, again not a "begrudging, drag your feet, I have to be good now" change, but a "wow this amazing grace has changed me, I love my God I now know is real, I LOVE him, it's my choice and I chose to serve Him with all my mind, body, and strength to show His love and bring His glory to the world to the best of my ability and only by His power", kind of change, it can be misleading. I'm not sure where you come from but I wasn't raised in the church and it hasn't been all rainbows and joy in my life, and I understand a lot more about life then the "happy face rainbow side", and guess what? There is more to God as well, like justice, and God is not "all about me", He is all about what's right, and I praise His name He is.

 

[JGIG]

You WERE justified at the Cross - Christ died not only for your sins but for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn. 2:2).

You weren't saved until you RECEIVED what Christ did at the Cross.

The Work was finished nearly 2000 years ago (when all of YOUR sins were in the future), when we receive what Christ did, we enter into His salvation.

To say that your future sins must still be forgiven, that means that blood must be shed. There is no more sacrifices for sin - the Old Covenant is obsolete and Christ is not coming back to shed more blood, so if what He already did didn't work, then we're all doomed.

Think about it.

-JGIG

This is a fallacy that keeps being repeated. I read something similar on a hypergrace website.

Note: The danger of believing that past sins are covered only by the cross: is that every time you now sin you can never be forgiven because Jesus isn’t going to die again for you.​

This just reflects an ignorance of old covenant law. Israel's sins were not forgiven until the blood was taken behind the veil and sprinkled on the mercyseat. That was just a shadow of Christ taking his blood into heaven to present to GOD. It is now sprinkled where he sits at GOD's right hand. It is there forever; Christ doesn't have to die again because he ever lives with his blood interceding as high priest for our sins.

But you have come to Mount Zion, and to the city of the living God, to the heavenly Jerusalem, and to tens of thousands of angels, to the festal gathering and assembly of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the judge of all, and to the spirits of righteous [people] made perfect, and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks better than Abel’s [does]. Hebrews 12:22-24​

godsgraceworks/category/grace/

I, for one, can assert that I'm not ignorant of Old Covenant Law.

But our salvation is not based on Old Covenant Law, it's based on the Reality of Christ's Work in the New Covenant.

The New Covenant is a BETTER Covenant and SUPERIOR in every way to the Old Covenant:

6 But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as the covenant of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new covenant is established on better promises. (from Heb. 8)​

And your Hebrews 12 reference above speaks of 'sprinkled blood', not 'blood that is being sprinkled'.

The Work is done. It is finished.

-JGIG

 

[BenFTW]

I'm talking about always focusing on the phrases like "we are sinners, we will always sin, we are incapable of sin (which I think is COMPLETELY untrue by the way and think it's scary that you think that's what Romans 6 is say) without EVER talking about the COMPLETE change that happens upon regeneration. Some are so fast to jump on anyone that even suggest we will strive to live more holy by the power of His Spirit, yet so very fast to "lift up" sinning after we are in Christ. I understand it is a struggle for the rest of or lives against the flesh, but not the kind we are in bondage to, the kind we freely chose to do and WANT to do by His Spirit, and it IS a "struggle".

I exsplained this the other day, and to the truly reborn believer this makes total sense and I agree. To those in the church that may not be regenerated, or to the genuine seeker it can be VERY misleading, in fact almost landed me in hell to be perfectly honest. All praise and glory to Him it didn't, but it only tells half the story and that is my concern with it. You NEVER talk about the TOTAL CHANGE that WILL come when the power of our great Creators grace comes into us making us ALL NEW. And it absolutely does not take our free will, nor our ability to sin, if that was true why does it grieve me so much when I do sin now? Why do I ask Him for forgiveness when I do so, not out of fear of being "kicked out of the family", but out of my love for Him saving a wretch like me and my WANT to live pleasing to bring His name glory? Why is that, if He just loves everything I do and I can do no wrong?

I don't necessarily think anyone is trying to glorify sin, but when you message is "It's ok to sin, it's ok to sin, it's ok to sin", and never even hints at a change in behavior, again not a "begrudging, drag your feet, I have to be good now" change, but a "wow this amazing grace has changed me, I love my God I now know is real, I LOVE him, it's my choice and I chose to serve Him with all my mind, body, and strength to show His love and bring His glory to the world to the best of my ability and only by His power", kind of change, it can be misleading. I'm not sure where you come from but I wasn't raised in the church and it hasn't been all rainbows and joy in my life, and I understand a lot more about life then the "happy face rainbow side", and guess what? There is more to God as well, like justice, and God is not "all about me", He is all about what's right, and I praise His name He is.

I don't believe one person here who stands for the Gospel of Grace has said that they are incapable of sinning. If they did, in that very moment, they would be lying and it would prove them wrong. lol However, they didn't and that is not what people are expressing in referring to Romans 6.

PS: You're right that the victory found in Christ should be emphasized and not just the fact that our sin is dealt with in terms of penalty. Not only is it dealt with before God's eyes as Judge but its power too has been broken as our old man is crucified with Christ. Our minds need renewing because old habits die hard.

 

[Grace777x70]

LOL..that is so true..that's good..we would be lying about our not sinning....and thus we are sinning ...

The problem is that there is a difference between 'sin" the noun and "sinning" the verb..one is in the flesh ( Sin ) the noun and will always be there until we get the boot off of earth..the other is an action..that we can do if we yield to the flesh and its desires..

I don't believe one person here who stands for the Gospel of Grace has said that they are incapable of sinning. If they did, in that very moment, they would be lying and it would prove them wrong. lol However, they didn't and that is not what people are expressing in referring to Romans 6.

PS: You're right that the victory found in Christ should be emphasized and not just the fact that our sin is dealt with in terms of penalty. Not only is it dealt with before God's eyes as Judge but its power too has been broken as our old man is crucified with Christ. Our minds need renewing because old habits die hard.

 

[Jimbone]

I don't believe one person here who stands for the Gospel of Grace has said that they are incapable of sinning. If they did, in that very moment, they would be lying and it would prove them wrong. lol However, they didn't and that is not what people are expressing in referring to Romans 6.

PS: You're right that the victory found in Christ should be emphasized and not just the fact that our sin is dealt with in terms of penalty. Not only is it dealt with before God's eyes as Judge but its power too has been broken as our old man is crucified with Christ. Our minds need renewing because old habits die hard.

That whole post and you focus on that small part of 1 sentence. Ok, I guess I misunderstood that fraction of 1 sentence and apologize, other than my small mistake in that one part, I stand by the entire comment and my point still stands.

 

[Willie-T]

I think, for me anyway, that this "sin" thing needs to be clarified somewhat.
No, I do not ask for forgiveness again. Jesus gave us that "once for all." I do, however, constantly thank God for the forgiveness I believe has already been given to me.

I would hope that it goes without saying that I don't - nor do I think that anyone here does - believe that sin is "OK." BUT I honestly do NOT put myself through the process of a "guilt trip" since Jesus helped me realize that I am not just "saved" from frying, but that I really AM His son... his child... that He would no more abandon than one of us would abandon one of our own children.

Do I feel bad when I have done something I feel would hurt Him? Of course, but "guilt" is no longer a part of who I am. I never tried to control my children that way - mainly because I think it is psychologically sick - and I do not believe God puts us through that.

Does someone else put us through that kind of torture? OH yeah! I think this is a primary tactic of Satan's. It worked in the Garden when he "guilted" A&E into hiding themselves from God who never once laid any guilt on them, but came looking for them to help them in their Satan (and self) imposed "guilt trip", and I am positive that he still employs it today. If Satan can do nothing in our lives but make us believe that God is against us, he will have succeeded in conjuring the fear of God that infected A&E, and we will respond the same way they did. We will run from Him, not to Him, when we have done wrong.

 

[BenFTW]

That whole post and you focus on that small part of 1 sentence. Ok, I guess I misunderstood that fraction of 1 sentence and apologize, other than my small mistake in that one part, I stand by the entire comment and my point still stands.

I agree with your point. Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law but grace. These things do get emphasized, but you just feel that victory ought to be expressed more instead of excusing sin. Except, sin isn't being excused as its been paid for already by Jesus' sacrifice. That's the point. There is no condemnation in Jesus Christ.

That being the case, how do we have victory over sin? It comes with a revelation of our identity in Christ, and the victory laid out in scripture (such as in Romans 6). In other words, we need to renew our minds. Sin isn't being swept under the rug, it is being addressed. Only it is being addressed without the guilt and condemnation associated with traditional ways of dealing with sin (I.e, sin confession/repentance).

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen...I noticed that God said to Adam and Eve.." Who told you that you were naked?"...there is a "voice" that comes to accuse you , to condemn you and make you feel guilty...and it's not God..any takers on whose "voice" it is?

I think, for me anyway, that this "sin" thing needs to be clarified somewhat.
No, I do not ask for forgiveness again. Jesus gave us that "once for all." I do, however, constantly thank God for the forgiveness I believe has already been given to me.

I would hope that it goes without saying that I don't - nor do I think that anyone here does - believe that sin is "OK." BUT I honestly do NOT put myself through the process of a "guilt trip" since Jesus helped me realize that I am not just "saved" from frying, but that I really AM His son... his child... that He would no more abandon than one of us would abandon one of our own children.

Do I feel bad when I have done something I feel would hurt Him? Of course, but "guilt" is no longer a part of who I am. I never tried to control my children that way - mainly because I think it is psychologically sick - and I do not believe God puts us through that.

Does someone else put us through that kind of torture? OH yeah! I think this is a primary tactic of Satan's. It worked in the Garden when he "guilted" A&E into hiding themselves from God who never once laid any guilt on them, but came looking for them to help them in their Satan (and self) imposed "guilt trip", and I am positive that he still employs it today. If Satan can do nothing in our lives but make us believe that God is against us, he will have succeeded in conjuring the fear of God that infected A&E, and we will respond the same way they did. We will run from Him, not to Him when we have done wrong.

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen..i agree..

but just so that there is no mis-understanding..we do confess to God our sins and talk with Him about everything..we just don't confess in order to be forgiven...sorry to jump in Ben..I just wanted to make that clear..

I agree with your point. Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law but grace. These things do get emphasized, but you just feel that victory ought to be expressed more instead of excusing sin. Except, sin isn't being excused as its been paid for already by Jesus' sacrifice. That's the point. There is no condemnation in Jesus Christ.

That being the case, how do we have victory over sin? It comes with a revelation of our identity in Christ, and the victory laid out in scripture (such as in Romans 6). In other words, we need to renew our minds. Sin isn't being swept under the rug, it is being addressed. Only it is being addressed without the guilt and condemnation associated with traditional ways of dealing with sin (I.e, sin confession/repentance).

 

[Jimbone]

I agree with your point. Sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under the law but grace. These things do get emphasized, but you just feel that victory ought to be expressed more instead of excusing sin. Except, sin isn't being excused as its been paid already by Jesus' sacrifice. That's the point. There is no condemnation in Jesus Christ.

That being the case, how do we have victory over sin? It comes with a revelation of our identity in Christ, and the victory laid out in scripture (such as in Romans 6). In other words, we need to renew our minds. Sin isn't being swept under the rug, it is being addressed. Only it is being addressed without the guilt and condemnation associated with traditional ways of dealing with sin (sin confession/repentance).

I agree (not that really means a thing) and really was what I was saying. I also want to say I understand what is meant when these things I gave in my examples mean as well, my only point in all this is when I was not truly saved, when I thought I was a Christian they gave me a false hope, they had me secure in my false salvation. That is the only reason I ever say anything about it, other than that now I have ears to hear and eyes to see, I agree with the points given. I'm not just trying to be argumentative, or even say anyone is wrong. So cool, and have a great day. 8^)

 

[BenFTW]

Amen...I noticed that God said to Adam and Eve.." Who told you that you were naked?"...there is a "voice" that comes to accuse you , to condemn you and make you feel guilty...and it's not God..any takers on whose "voice" it is?

I read something interesting the other day online. Our hearts can condemn us when God isn't.

1 John 3:20-21King James Version (KJV)

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

People's guilt, condemnation and feelings of distance from the Lord seem to be a matter of the mind (and doctrine) more so than God's response to our sin. He grieves for us, not against us. He cares about us, we are His children.

 

[Willie-T]

Amen...I noticed that God said to Adam and Eve.." Who told you that you were naked?"...there is a "voice" that comes to accuse you , to condemn you and make you feel guilty...and it's not God..any takers on whose "voice" it is?

Wow! That was an inspirational mouthful.

 

[Willie-T]

I read something interesting the other day online. Our hearts can condemn us when God isn't.

1 John 3:20-21King James Version (KJV)

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

People's guilt, condemnation and feelings of distance from the Lord seem to be a matter of the mind (and doctrine) more so than God's response to our sin. He grieves for us, not against us. He cares about us, we are His children.

Interesting. It brings to mind another verse that tells us the heart is deceitful. So, your own deceitfulness, (if you see THAT in you instead of Jesus) condemns you and lays a guilt trip on you. And we have been blaming The Holy Spirit for making us feel guilty.

 

[Grace777x70]

I'll go first..I think it is the "power of sin" that is in the flesh after Adam and Eve sinned...

When God was speaking to Cain..He said.."si"n lies at the door.and "it's" desire is for you..

And in Romans 7:14-20..talks about "sin" in our flesh...in the members of our body..

I also think an evil spirit ( from the prince of the power of the air ) can throw thoughts into our minds that makes us think it's us..it uses the first person.. " Why did I do that?...sometimes it's really blatant.. " What are you going to do about that?"..

just some random thoughts about it...

Amen...I noticed that God said to Adam and Eve.." Who told you that you were naked?"...there is a "voice" that comes to accuse you , to condemn you and make you feel guilty...and it's not God..any takers on whose "voice" it is?

 

[Grace777x70]

Amen!..also I did a study on that scripture and the word "condemn" is not the same condemn as in Romand 8;1....the word literally means = to know something against"...what are your thoughts on that?

I read something interesting the other day online. Our hearts can condemn us when God isn't.

1 John 3:20-21King James Version (KJV)

20 For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.

People's guilt, condemnation and feelings of distance from the Lord seem to be a matter of the mind (and doctrine) more so than God's response to our sin. He grieves for us, not against us. He cares about us, we are His children.

 

[Grace777x70]

Maybe it was the world's first "mother-in-law"?..lol..just kiddin'

Wow! That was an inspirational mouthful.

 

[Grace777x70]

My personal belief is that it is my own spirit that has been created in righteousness and holiness is " knowing something against me"..when yield myself to the flesh and sin..and that's when God steps in and says..God is greater then our heart and knows all things..He knows we are the righteousness of God in Christ..despite what wrong we did..

This is where the holy Spirt convicts /convinces us of righteousness because Jesus has gone to the Father..we have an Advocate..Jesus Christ the Rightoeus.

those are some of my random thoughts...

Interesting. It brings to mind another verse that tells us the heart is deceitful. So, your own deceitfulness, (if you see THAT in you instead of Jesus) condemns you and lays a guilt trip on you. And we have been blaming The Holy Spirit for making us feel guilty.

 

[Willie-T]

Maybe it was the world's first "mother-in-law"?..lol..just kiddin'

[video=youtube;6EN5eJf5h_k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EN5eJf5h_k[/video]