The Gospel of Grace - Boasting in God and His Gospel (Another Hyper-Grace Thread)

[BenFTW]

Amen!..also I did a study on that scripture and the word "condemn" is not the same condemn as in Romand 8;1....the word literally means = to know something against"...what are your thoughts on that?

Not sure, my father mentioned a good angle on it. There are some people that can't get over the evil they have committed and because of that their hearts condemn them. They can't forgive themselves, but the Lord has. They say, "God couldn't forgive me of this terrible evil." Fortunately for them, He did and it was paid for at the cross. So this verse tells them that God is greater than their heart and knoweth all things. Jesus paid for their sin.

 

[Gr8grace]

Amen..i agree..

but just so that there is no mis-understanding..we do confess to God our sins and talk with Him about everything..we just don't confess in order to be forgiven...sorry to jump in Ben..I just wanted to make that clear..

I haven't seen it, but it has probably been discussed and is worthy of repeat.......


Col 1:14~~New American Standard Bible
in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 1:9~~New American Standard Bible
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Two different Greek words for "forgive" in these 2 verses.

Col 1:14.~~ἄφεσις, εως, ἡ.......deliverance, pardon, complete forgiveness

1 John 1:9~~ἀφίημι......I send away, release, remit, forgive, permit

One is forgive for deliverance or redemption or salvation. the other is forgive to release us from the sin we have in our lives.


Col states our position in Christ. 1 John 1:9 deals with our experiential sanctification in time.

 

[InSpiritInTruth]

So . . . you're telling us that Joseph Prince teaches false stuff . . . but you do not need to look up what Joseph Prince teaches.

Huh?

How then, could you possibly know that what he teaches is false?

I'm beginning to think that you not only don't read what we write, but you don't read what YOU write!

-JGIG

Read what I said slowly, your above response was to this post.....

Originally Posted by InSpiritInTruth I don't receive the testimony of men because the Testimony of God is greater. And I also do not need to look up what Joseph Prince teaches because his disciples are flooding the forum with tons of his false doctrine.

I'm beginning to think you don't read what I write either.

 

[Grace777x70]

I see what you are saying..however..Col 1:14 is just the noun and the 1 john 1;9 is the verb for the action of the same word......I see them as the same thing.......but let me look at it closer and ponder on it for awhile..

I haven't seen it, but it has probably been discussed and is worthy of repeat.......


Col 1:14~~New American Standard Bible
in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

1 John 1:9~~New American Standard Bible
If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Two different Greek words for "forgive" in these 2 verses.

Col 1:14.~~ἄφεσις, εως, ἡ.......deliverance, pardon, complete forgiveness

1 John 1:9~~ἀφίημι......I send away, release, remit, forgive, permit

One is forgive for deliverance or redemption or salvation. the other is forgive to release us from the sin we have in our lives.


Col states our position in Christ. 1 John 1:9 deals with our experiential sanctification in time.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

"Hath GOD said thou shalt acknowledge thine iniquity?"

"GOD hath said if we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we haven't sinned, we make him a liar, and his word isn't in us."

"Ye shall not make him a liar. For God doth know that in the day his spirit doth convict you of your righteousness, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing your true identity."

 

[JGIG]

I'm talking about always focusing on the phrases like "we are sinners, we will always sin, we are incapable of sin (which I think is COMPLETELY untrue by the way and think it's scary that you think that's what Romans 6 is say) without EVER talking about the COMPLETE change that happens upon regeneration. Some are so fast to jump on anyone that even suggest we will strive to live more holy by the power of His Spirit, yet so very fast to "lift up" sinning after we are in Christ. I understand it is a struggle for the rest of or lives against the flesh, but not the kind we are in bondage to, the kind we freely chose to do and WANT to do by His Spirit, and it IS a "struggle".

Please don't confuse what we're saying with those who preach 'sinless perfectionism'. There are one or two I've seen who hint at sinless perfectionism, but that is NOT what I, Ben, Gr8Grace, WillieT, Grace777x70, and others are teaching here.

We DO talk about the New Creation that we are in Christ, and Grace teaches us how to live out who we now are in Christ. And that's a process. All in the context of the Gospel:

• Who Jesus is
• What He came to do
• What that actually accomplished, and
• Who those who believe in Christ are in Him

I exsplained this the other day, and to the truly reborn believer this makes total sense and I agree. To those in the church that may not be regenerated, or to the genuine seeker it can be VERY misleading, in fact almost landed me in hell to be perfectly honest.

All praise and glory to Him it didn't, but it only tells half the story and that is my concern with it. You NEVER talk about the TOTAL CHANGE that WILL come when the power of our great Creators grace comes into us making us ALL NEW. And it absolutely does not take our free will, nor our ability to sin, if that was true why does it grieve me so much when I do sin now? Why do I ask Him for forgiveness when I do so, not out of fear of being "kicked out of the family", but out of my love for Him saving a wretch like me and my WANT to live pleasing to bring His name glory? Why is that, if He just loves everything I do and I can do no wrong?

But we ARE talking about the New Creation - and for our walk to reflect who we are in Christ. That's what the OP is trying to clarify.

I don't necessarily think anyone is trying to glorify sin, but when you message is "It's ok to sin, it's ok to sin, it's ok to sin", and never even hints at a change in behavior,

That's not us saying that - that's others saying that we're saying that. We are not saying that 'It's ok to sin, it's ok to sin, it's ok to sin'.

We're saying that when we do sin, we have an Advocate. The Grace message is that sin is dumb and destructive - don't sin! Live as the New Creation that you are!

again not a "begrudging, drag your feet, I have to be good now" change, but a "wow this amazing grace has changed me, I love my God I now know is real, I LOVE him, it's my choice and I chose to serve Him with all my mind, body, and strength to show His love and bring His glory to the world to the best of my ability and only by His power",

That's pretty much what we are teaching. "wow this amazing grace has changed me, I love my God I now know is real, I LOVE him, it's my choice and I chose to serve Him with all my mind, body, and strength to show His love and bring His glory to the world to the best of my ability and only by His power"

kind of change, it can be misleading. I'm not sure where you come from but I wasn't raised in the church and it hasn't been all rainbows and joy in my life, and I understand a lot more about life then the "happy face rainbow side", and guess what? There is more to God as well, like justice, and God is not "all about me", He is all about what's right, and I praise His name He is.

I come from being saved in a religious ed class through a public school back in 1973 =o). If you want to know my basic upbringing, you can read it here.

There are lots of parts of my life's experience that were not 'happy face rainbow side' - if you want to know more about that, feel free to PM me.

And you're right - God's justice, His Gospel, is not all about us, though we are the beneficiaries. It's all about Christ, His Work, and what He did to restore what was lost at the Fall.

It's about Christ, His Work, what that accomplished, and who we are in Him. About us behaving as who we are in Him. About God's Grace that teaches us about behaving as who we are in Him.

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Interesting. It brings to mind another verse that tells us the heart is deceitful. So, your own deceitfulness, (if you see THAT in you instead of Jesus) condemns you and lays a guilt trip on you. And we have been blaming The Holy Spirit for making us feel guilty.

Yes - God has put a new heart within us!

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Maybe it was the world's first "mother-in-law"?..lol..just kiddin'

[video=youtube;6EN5eJf5h_k]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EN5eJf5h_k[/video]

Grace can even bring peace with Mothers-in-Law TRUE STORY !

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

Read what I said slowly, your above response was to this post.....

Originally Posted by InSpiritInTruth I don't receive the testimony of men because the Testimony of God is greater. And I also do not need to look up what Joseph Prince teaches because his disciples are flooding the forum with tons of his false doctrine.

I'm beginning to think you don't read what I write either.

Disciples of who????

-JGIG

 

[JGIG]

"Hath GOD said thou shalt acknowledge thine iniquity?"

"GOD hath said if we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we haven't sinned, we make him a liar, and his word isn't in us."

"Ye shall not make him a liar. For God doth know that in the day his spirit doth convict you of your righteousness, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing your true identity."

References for the above, please?

So that the reader may see context . . . and if you've mixed in any of your own words.

Thanks.

-JGIG

 

[Willie-T]

"Hath GOD said thou shalt acknowledge thine iniquity?"

"GOD hath said if we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we haven't sinned, we make him a liar, and his word isn't in us."

"Ye shall not make him a liar. For God doth know that in the day his spirit doth convict you of your righteousness, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing your true identity."

References for the above, please?

So that the reader may see context . . . and if you've mixed in any of your own words.

Thanks.

-JGIG

I am certain HRFTD will respond with full quotes and verse designations in just a few minutes. Since he wants us to learn the real truth.

 

[HeRoseFromTheDead]

"Hath GOD said thou shalt acknowledge thine iniquity?"

"GOD hath said if we acknowledge our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we haven't sinned, we make him a liar, and his word isn't in us."

"Ye shall not make him a liar. For God doth know that in the day his spirit doth convict you of your righteousness, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing your true identity."

References for the above, please?

So that the reader may see context . . . and if you've mixed in any of your own words.

I am certain HRFTD will respond with full quotes and verse designations in just a few minutes. Since he wants us to learn the real truth.

I made up a little short story for you folks. Do you like it? Does it remind you of anything?

 

[Goodnewsman]

JGIG, Look how you took such a precious verse out of context.

1 John 2:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

were did you read in v2 that Christians are jusitifed at calvary? at the cross Jesus provided the basis of our justification. look at romans 3:26

Romans 3:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

we become partakers of his Grace when and only when we savingly believe in the the Lord Jesus Christ.

question: is everybody on planet earth saved? is anybody going to go to hell?

you said we was all justified at the cross because Christ died for the whole world, but is the whole world going to heaven?

of course they are not, because they reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, proving my point that although Christ provided the basis for our justification, we weren't justified until conversion.

also consider romans 3:25

Romans 3:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

notice: "sins that are past"

You WERE justified at the Cross - Christ died not only for your sins but for the sins of the whole world (1 Jn. 2:2).

You weren't saved until you RECEIVED what Christ did at the Cross.

The Work was finished nearly 2000 years ago (when all of YOUR sins were in the future), when we receive what Christ did, we enter into His salvation.

To say that your future sins must still be forgiven, that means that blood must be shed. There is no more sacrifices for sin - the Old Covenant is obsolete and Christ is not coming back to shed more blood, so if what He already did didn't work, then we're all doomed.

Think about it.

-JGIG

 

[Goodnewsman]

let me ask a question to the "HYPERS"

Matthew 18:21-35 we have the parable of the two debtors. one forgiven a large amount of debt, but refusing to forgive a fellow servant a small amount.....(I'm sure y'all remember this????)

notice what happen to him and the warning given to us:
Matthew 18:34-35 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[SUP]35 [/SUP] So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

how do you explain this? did verse 35 not say "THE FATHER DO ALSO UNTO YOU, IF YE FROM YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT A BROTHER"?????

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is one piece of scripture that says we were forgiven all sins at the cross...we "receive" the benefits of this forgiveness when we believe..but they were already forgiven before we received it for ourselves..


Colossians 2:13-14 (NASB)
[SUP]13 [/SUP] When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions,
[SUP]14 [/SUP] having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.


Romans 3:25 is simply showing that the former sins of the people that were before Christ died on the cross for us were passed over with His sacrifice.



Here is a video on forgiveness to get further understanding as well if you desire..

[video=youtube;QS2mzHP1Cx4]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QS2mzHP1Cx4[/video]

 

[Grace777x70]

Here is a song that you can rejoice over the great sacrifice of Jesus for us in His grace and love...enjoy!

[video=youtube;34Tvwff3Ku0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34Tvwff3Ku0[/video]

 

[JGIG]

JGIG, Look how you took such a precious verse out of context.

1 John 2:1-2 (KJV)
[SUP]1 [/SUP] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
[SUP]2 [/SUP] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

were did you read in v2 that Christians are jusitifed at calvary? at the cross Jesus provided the basis of our justification. look at romans 3:26

Romans 3:26 (KJV)
[SUP]26 [/SUP] To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

we become partakers of his Grace when and only when we savingly believe in the the Lord Jesus Christ.

question: is everybody on planet earth saved? is anybody going to go to hell?

you said we was all justified at the cross because Christ died for the whole world, but is the whole world going to heaven?

of course they are not, because they reject the gospel of Jesus Christ, proving my point that although Christ provided the basis for our justification, we weren't justified until conversion.

also consider romans 3:25

Romans 3:25 (KJV)
[SUP]25 [/SUP] Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

notice: "sins that are past"

Then no sin committed after the Cross is remitted according to you.

We're all sunk.

-JGIG

 

[sydlit]

Then no sin committed after the Cross is remitted according to you.

We're all sunk.

-JGIG

I KNEW it!

 

[JGIG]

let me ask a question to the "HYPERS"

Matthew 18:21-35 we have the parable of the two debtors. one forgiven a large amount of debt, but refusing to forgive a fellow servant a small amount.....(I'm sure y'all remember this????)

notice what happen to him and the warning given to us:
Matthew 18:34-35 (KJV)
[SUP]34 [/SUP] And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.
[SUP]35 [/SUP] So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.

how do you explain this? did verse 35 not say "THE FATHER DO ALSO UNTO YOU, IF YE FROM YOUR HEARTS FORGIVE NOT A BROTHER"?????

So it's not the Blood of Christ that provides for our salvation, but our ability to forgive others?

-JGIG

 

[sydlit]

So it's not the Blood of Christ that provides for our salvation, but our ability to forgive others?

-JGIG

Gulp.You're right. Sunk!