K
Kerry
Guest
Because what is grace? it is unmerited favor. God favored them by grace with all there complaining and wanting to go back into slavery so they could have food to eat when God fed them mannah every day.
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
L
Laodicea
Guest
They did have the law. Genesis shows that the law existed before Sinai. Exodus 16 shows they had the sabbath before the law was given. Exodus shows both law and grace. The law was given in Exodus 20, grace showed in the sanctuary message. Adam & Eve had law and grace, God gave them a law they disobeyed and God showed His grace by providing a sacrifice, a lamb which pointed to Christ.
K
Kerry
Guest
Reaching for straws are we not? Why didn't God kill Cain after murdering his brother? because there was no law against it. When did Abraham keep the Sabbath? He was from a family of Idol makers. Abraham did not keep one Sabbath not in the bible anyways. Neither did Issac, Jacob or even Joseph. Every man did what was right in his own eye.
L
Laodicea
Guest
You look like a doubting Thomas, unless you see you will not believe. Cain knew what he did was wrong, yet there was no law written thou shalt not kill. They knew idols was wrong yet there was no law written not to have idols.
Genesis 35:2
(2) Then Jacob said unto his household, and to all that were with him, Put away the strange gods that are among you, and be clean, and change your garments:
How did he know it was wrong when there was no law written not to have idols or other gods? there are other laws in Genesis showing they knew the law before written down.
Genesis 26:5
(5) Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my (H8451)laws.
H8451
תּרה תּורה
tôrâh tôrâh
to-raw', to-raw'
From H3384; a precept or statute, especially the Decalogue or Pentateuch: - law.
So according to this Abraham kept the Torah
M
Mitspa
Guest
It was not written and engraved on stones... and it was not the law of Moses ...no condemnation..no death...no curse... Just like circumcision was a part of the agreement of faith God had made with Israel.
The Creator's righteous standard has existed as long as He has and it will exist as long as He does....forever.
Psalm 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."
Psalm 89:26-37, "He will call out to Me; You are my Father, O Yahweh! You are the Rock of my salvation! And I will make Him My firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth. My mercy I will keep for Him forever and My covenant will stand fast with Him. And I will establish his Seed forever, and his throne will be as the days of heaven. Should his children forsake My Law, and refuse to walk in My judgments; Should they profane My statutes, and fail to keep My commandments; Then I will punish their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with lashes from the whip. Nevertheless, My lovingkindness I will not utterly withdraw from him, nor will I ever betray My faithfulness. My covenant I will not break, nor will I change what that has gone out of My lips. Once for all, I have vowed by My holiness--I cannot lie, and I say to David: His Seed will endure forever, and his throne will endure before Me like the sun. His throne will be established forever like the moon: the faithful witness in the sky."
M
Mitspa
Guest
Right only those who die to the law, with Christ, have upheld it and honor it...not those who claim to keep it but break it!
so how did you get the HS which you claim you have?...since you do not obey...
Acts 5:32
And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
Jesus is now Lord of all...he is not serving any more ...we have become the servants...Do you have any clue what Lord means?????
[h=1]Philippians 2:8-10King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]8 [/SUP]And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:
[SUP]10 [/SUP]That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;
Acts 10:36
The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all
what part of Galatians does not agree with what I wrote..??? just repost my quote and colour what is opposed to Galatians in red...
the law is not dead...we are become dead to the law...but alive unto Christ
it is the same law you use to justify your union with Christ and to claim unfaithfulness to him.....we are not under the law because Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to them that believe....not because the law has become something bad...Christ alone fulfilled the law...no one else....so the law is not removed God concluded all under the law...the law has no power over Christ because it found no sin in him when he was executed....therefore death had to release him...so we who believe receive remission of sins and die willingly as he did....we are revived by the HS which joins us to him so like him the law have no power over us...but since the wages of sin is death...if we sin we must seek forgiveness else we can become separated from Christ....because sin cannot dwell in him
Die to the law of sin...
Not die to "do not kill"
The law of sin and death is not, "do not steal" "do not kill" "love your neighbor" "do not take the Name of YHWH in vain", the law of sin and death is what you see on a television daily...
Ok, so Romans 7:
7 What? Can anyone therefore say that the Law is sin? No! By no means! But to the contrary, I did not know sin; transgression of the Law, except through the Law, for I did not know lust, unless the Law had said: Do not covet.
12 Therefore the Law is holy, and the commandments are holy, and just, and righteous.
Obedience to Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am Yahweh." is holy.
13 Did that which is righteous, then, become death to me? By no means! But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it produced death in me through that which was righteous, so that through the commandments, sin might become utterly sinful.
"sin might become utterly sinful" breaking "do not steal" is sin and death
14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.
the Law is spiritual;
Do not hold back the wages of a hired man overnight. Do not curse the deaf or put a stumblingblock in front of the blind; but reverence your Father. I am Yahweh. Do not pervert judgment: You shall not show partiality to the poor, nor honor to the person of the great.
Breaking "You shall not show partiality to the poor, nor honor to the person of the great." is carnal
16 And if I did what I did not want to do, I agreed that the Law is righteous.
17 As it was, it was no longer I myself who did it, but it was sin living in me.
22 For I delight in the Law of Yahweh according to the inward man;
23 But I saw another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the Law in my mind, and bringing me into captivity of the law of sin, which is in my members.
25 Thanks be to Yahweh, I have deliverance through Yahshua Messiah our King! So then, with this same mind, I myself serve the Law of Yahweh, while in the flesh that is yet subject to the law of sin.
"I have deliverance"
deliverance from "do not steal" or deliverance from breaking "do not steal"
Romans 8:
2 Because through Yahshua Messiah, the Law of the Spirit has set me free from the law of sin and death.
(Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual; but I was carnal, sold into the power of sin.)
3 For what the Law was powerless to do, in that men sought to defeat; overthrow, fit, Yahweh did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful man, to bear witness against sin. And so He condemned the sins of all mankind."
Is sin "do not steal?"
or is sin breaking "do not steal?"
(Romans 7:14 For we know that the Law is spiritual
Romans 8:5-8, "For those who live according to the flesh, set their minds on the things of the flesh; but those who live according to the Spirit, set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. Because the carnal mind is enmity against; (bitterly opposed to), Yahweh; for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh, nor indeed can be. So then, those who are of the flesh cannot please Yahweh."
What is the flesh opposed to?
Following Yahweh's Law?
Rejecting Yahweh's Law?
carnal mind is enmity against
for it his not subject to the Law of Yahweh
2 Kepha 3:15-16, "...Shaul, in accordance with the wisdom given to him, has written to you, As also in all his letters, speaking in them about these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which those who are unlearned and unstable twist, as they also do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction."
Psalm 19:7-10, "The Laws of Yahweh are perfect, converting the whole person. The testimony of Yahweh is sure, making the simple ones wise. The statutes of Yahweh are right, rejoicing the heart; mind. The commandments of Yahweh are pure, bringing understanding to the eyes. The reverence of Yahweh is clean, enduring forever. The judgments of Yahweh are true and altogether righteous. They are more to be desired than gold, yes, than even much fine gold. They are sweeter than honey and the honeycomb."
9But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and strife and disputes about the Law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.
John (Yahchanan 15:4-6, "Abide in Me, and I in you. Just as the branch cannot produce fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, produces much fruit; but without Me, you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away like a branch, and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned."
John 7:16-17 "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching--whether it comes from Yahweh, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."
You know why He said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching."
because this:
Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Is from this:
Deuteronomy 6:5, "And you must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."
Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am Yahweh."
Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."
iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
John 7:16-17 "Yahshua answered, them, and said: My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching--whether it comes from Yahweh, or whether I am speaking of My own authority."
You know why He said, "My doctrine is not Mine, but His Who sent Me. If any man will do His will, he will know about this teaching."
because this:
Mattithyah 22:36-40, "Teacher, what is the greatest commandment in the Law? Yahshua said to him: You must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."
Is from this:
Deuteronomy 6:5, "And you must love Yahweh your Father with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might."
Leviticus 19:18, "Do not seek revenge nor bear a grudge against one of your own people; but you shall love your neighbor as yourself. I am Yahweh."
Yahchanan (John) 14:15, "If you love Me, keep My commandments."
Mattithyah 5:18, "For truly I say to you; Unless heaven and earth passes away, one yodh--the smallest of the letters--will in no way pass from the Law, until all things are perfected."
Luke 16:17, "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one yodh of the Law to fail."
Mattithyah 7:23, "But then I will declare to them; I never knew you. Get away from Me, you who practice iniquity."
iniquity is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
JMO.
If one is saying you must reject the Law to enter in, one can not sit by when Scripture says:
Revelation 12:17, "And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went to make war with those who forsook her seed; her seed being those who keep the Laws of Yahweh, and have the testimony of Yahshua Messiah."
1785. entolé
Definition: an ordinance, injunction, command, law.
Revelation 22:12-15, "And behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give every man according as his work will be. I am the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. Blessed are those who keep His Laws, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For outside are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and worshipers of gods and everyone who professes to love, yet practices falsehood."
Mattithyah 24:12, "And because iniquity will abound, the love of the many will grow cold."
"iniquity" is:#0458 anomia {an-om-ee'-ah} from G0459
Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) the condition of without law
1a) because ignorant of it
1b) because of violating it
2) contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness
I dont think that verse is concerning dont debate people who say Yahweh's Instructions are gone. I think it is concerning the details of the Law. JMO.
Titus 1:9, "Holding fast the teaching according to the faithful word in order that he may be able, by sound doctrine, both to exhort and to refute those who contradict."
1 Yahchanan (John) 2:4, "He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law, is a liar, and the truth is not in him."
2 Timothy 4:2-3, "Preach the word Be instant; ready to take your positions in season, out of season. Reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts they will heap to themselves teachers, who will tickle their ears."
Leviticus 19:17, "You shall not hate your neighbor in your heart. Rebuke your brother (or your sister) frankly, so you will not share in his (or her) guilt."
T
The_highwayman
Guest
Start in John 14, 15 and 16.
TO understand the Holy Ghost you need to know who he is and what his ministry to the new covenant believer is.
John 14, 15 and 16 will begin that process for you.
You would then need to begin to learn and understand his different attributes. I assure you he is not an it or an after thought, it is his time in the earth today and he is OUR teacher, helper, comforter and will show you all things....
M
Mitspa
Guest
Think about this...God is love...all His commandments are fulfilled in love....yes from the beginning Gods law was love...the purpose of the law of Moses was to make us see we as men are without His kind of love...lawless But the law was always spiritual...it was always love.
M
Mitspa
Guest
Have you even read the New Testament Hiz?
Ga 2:19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.
K
kennethcadwell
Guest
The bible I go by says that those who love the Lord will follow and keep His commandments, and also that by walking in love you will do all the other things that the Lord said; Like help others in need, forgive others, and do works worthy of repentance. And then it also says that if these things do not follow in your faith, then your faith is dead and worthless.
And I know some like to only mention Rahab the harlot like Mitspa does, but he forgets that in chapter 2 of James that James mentions if you deny to help others in need as in see a person hungry or thirsty or naked and do not give them the things they need then you also have a dead and worthless faith. When you compare this to Matthew 25 where Jesus is talking He says those who refuse to do this go to eternal punishment, not to eternal life.
during the black plague in europe, it was only the true saints/ekklesia who went out in the streets and brought in the poor homeless people who were sick, even/especially orphans(no one else helped nor tried to help personally) .... and ministered to them with no support from government nor organized religion.
the merely 'religious', whether or not they thought themselves saved or not, did not lift a finger to help those afflicted with plague.
just like the "religious vs " Samaritan in the parable of the Good Samaritan told by Jesus ........
who did Jesus say did what is right ?
the merely 'religious', whether or not they thought themselves saved or not, did not lift a finger to help those afflicted with plague.
just like the "religious vs " Samaritan in the parable of the Good Samaritan told by Jesus ........
who did Jesus say did what is right ?
M
Mitspa
Guest
I think Jesus said heal the sick... and of course help the poor and needy ...but not sure what you think that proves? Hindus and muslim clerics do the same thing trying to earn salvation...when you pray for the sick and they are healed in the Name of Jesus...it proves you have salvation.