THE GREAT DEBATE...LAW AND GRACE

[Hizikyah]

He thought I was talking about him??? Is he a monk or a copyist?

No he though you were being rude, like making a joke I guess, he misunderstood about "written in the margins thing" (the added words)

 

[Karraster]

No he though you were being rude, like making a joke I guess, he misunderstood about "written in the margins thing" (the added words)

Thanks for clearing that up. I thought it might be that, yet I don't see how,.unless he is a monk or copyist.. still, he couldn't be nearly old enough to have done it..hehehe..but thanks for going to the trouble to tell me brother, you are very kind.

 

[Trailblazer]

I head a sermon from Pastor James Vernen McGee on Christian radio.
He was reading from Jeremiah. He points out, Who was ever saved through works? Answer! Not one. For the flesh is weak. The flesh is not able to keep the law. The law does show us of our own sin. For there is not one good. Says the Lord.

Jesus made a new covenant. Trust, Believe in him with all of our hearts, mind and soul. We then shall be saved through Gods good Grace.
There is no debate. Other then from those who only choose to argue.

His sermon was also speaking of baby Christians seeking milk. That being! Doing good works, feel good feelings that you may get by attending a Church. Prideful if you think you are saved because you may work at a Church etc. For none of this will get you saved.

Eat meat. Be a mature Christian. Jesus is alive and at the right hand of the father as we speak.
Jesus is running the whole universe as we speak. Believe in Jesus, Trust in Jesus, and have a personal relationship with Jesus. for he hears our words, and knows our thoughts. AMEN!

So much debate. Does not the scriptures teach us that the Holy Spirit will guide us and correct us for what is true?

 

[newbirth]

I head a sermon from Pastor James Vernen McGee on Christian radio.
He was reading from Jeremiah. He points out, Who was ever saved through works? Answer! Not one. For the flesh is weak. The flesh is not able to keep the law. The law does show us of our own sin. For there is not one good. Says the Lord.

Jesus made a new covenant. Trust, Believe in him with all of our hearts, mind and soul. We then shall be saved through Gods good Grace.
There is no debate. Other then from those who only choose to argue.

His sermon was also speaking of baby Christians seeking milk. That being! Doing good works, feel good feelings that you may get by attending a Church. Prideful if you think you are saved because you may work at a Church etc. For none of this will get you saved.

Eat meat. Be a mature Christian. Jesus is alive and at the right hand of the father as we speak.
Jesus is running the whole universe as we speak. Believe in Jesus, Trust in Jesus, and have a personal relationship with Jesus. for he hears our words, and knows our thoughts. AMEN!

So much debate. Does not the scriptures teach us that the Holy Spirit will guide us and correct us for what is true?

that is the gospel according to McGee....if the Spirit of God dwells in you...what is he telling you...or do you not listen to him but only to McGee...here is guidance and correction...direct from scripture...
we are saved by grace through faith....if your faith have no works it is dead...and cannot save....that is not rocket science ....you conclude a believer is under the law and all work is works of the law(red)....you also conclude faith is only in the mind(blue)

[SUP]18 [/SUP]But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
[SUP]19 [/SUP]Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
[SUP]20 [/SUP]Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
[SUP]25 [/SUP]If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

[SUP]26 [/SUP]Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

if you do vs 22, 23 & 24 you are fulfilling the law of commandments...


Hebrews 11:8

By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

Hebrews 11:7
By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=James 2:20-24&version=KJV;YLT James 2:20-24
[SUP]20 [/SUP]But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
[SUP]22 [/SUP]Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
[SUP]24 [/SUP]Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

 

[Mitspa]

I think some think if they can just keep most of the law, and do better than most that God will be pleased with them..and they might get into heaven? That's not the gospel and that's not what pleases God! Without faith in Son alone to justify, you cannot please God....and the law is not of faith....those who seek to be justified by the law have fallen from Gods grace....I don't know if some of you have crossed the line into damnation with your attempts at self-righteousness....I hope not...know that you have been warned and on judgment Day...I promise you the only thing you will desire is to be found in Him, not having your own righteousness, which is by the law...but Gods righteousness which is by faith.

I know there is not a person in this whole world who even keeps the first commandment of Moses... Because Christ made it impossible for any man.....love the Lord your God WITH ALL YOUR HEART , MIND AND SOUL... Now if ALL means ALL and all the time....no one can be justified by the law...Only Jesus kept that standard

 

[newbirth]

I think some think if they can just keep most of the law, and do better than most that God will be pleased with them..and they might get into heaven? That's not the gospel and that's not what pleases God! Without faith in Son alone to justify, you cannot please God....and the law is not of faith....those who seek to be justified by the law have fallen from Gods grace....I don't know if some of you have crossed the line into damnation with your attempts at self-righteousness....I hope not...know that you have been warned and on judgment Day...I promise you the only thing you will desire is to be found in Him, not having your own righteousness, which is by the law...but Gods righteousness which is by faith.

I know there is not a person in this whole world who even keeps the first commandment of Moses... Because Christ made it impossible for any man.....love the Lord your God WITH ALL YOUR HEART , MIND AND SOUL... Now if ALL means ALL and all the time....no one can be justified by the law...Only Jesus kept that standard

you refuse to see the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit....how is the fruit of the Spirit being exercised in us?
How can we accomplish any of these fruits if we don't do things that are contained in the law?...you give the impression of wanting to do things in your mind but not in your actions...
Galatians 5:21-24King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[SUP]22 [/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

============================================
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

 

[Mitspa]

you refuse to see the righteous requirement of the law is fulfilled in those who walk after the Spirit....how is the fruit of the Spirit being exercised in us?
How can we accomplish any of these fruits if we don't do things that are contained in the law?...you give the impression of wanting to do things in your mind but not in your actions...
Galatians 5:21-24King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]21 [/SUP]Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

[SUP]22[/SUP]But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

[SUP]23 [/SUP]Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

[SUP]24 [/SUP]And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

============================================
[SUP]
2 [/SUP]Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord,

[SUP]3 [/SUP]According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
[SUP]4 [/SUP]Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
[SUP]5 [/SUP]And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

[SUP]6 [/SUP]And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness;
[SUP]7 [/SUP]And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity.
[SUP]8 [/SUP]For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
[SUP]9 [/SUP]But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.
[SUP]10 [/SUP]Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

[SUP]11 [/SUP]For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

What? I have posted on this thread many times of the fulfilling of the law in Gods Love working in us... the Law always was love...and its is only fulfilled in love.....Now if you walk in the Spirit you will walk in love....so whats your point again? This love is not of the flesh...it does not come when one seeks to justify themselves by the law, it comes when one has been justified by faith.....You cannot be under the law and walk in the Spirit..... You need to stop trying to debate me for debates sake and lets have a discussion about the truth.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

First of all I did not yell at you, yelling is when you type stuff out in full caps.
Enlarging and making the words bold is an attempt to emphasis them to be heard. You also did not prove nothing, for you said that I said we have to earn our way into heaven, and that we have to do enough good works to get into heaven. I never said either of those, and that is why I said you are bearing false witness.

Se there yuo go again.

I copied you post, and showed the works you claim one must do to be saved.

Yet you still deny it.

You can yell all you want, your only fooling yourself.

I have PROVED with your OWN WORDS that you DO WHAT YOU CLAIM NOT TO DO.

What does it mean to you when Paul says you have fallen from grace ?

I already told you. Every man is shown grace by God. some more than others, If your in Gods house and are around his people. you experience Gos grace even more, but if while there, You decide you do not trust that grace, and walk away and go back to your religion. You have fallen from grace.

You did not lose salvation. YOU NEVER HAD IT!

It would be like you or hizekia deciding to try this faith stuff out. Walking around with the people and being blessed like you have never been blessed before (yes, I can say this, I have experienced it when I left the legalistic church) then deciding, no, You do not like it, you miss your religion, you do not feel closer to God because to you, being close to God is doing ritualistic tradition. So you go back to you law and works.

You have fallen from Grace.

but you were never saved, BECAUSE YOU ALWAYS TRUSTED IN YOUR WORKS< THAT NEVER CHANGE!

What does it mean to you when Paul says a believer can become impure again from sin ?

Paul never said salvation can be lost by sin, for if he did, he would contradict his own teachings of justification by faith, the eternal seal of the spirit. the fact that God will perfect the work he begun in you.

However. sin CAN and DOES CAUSE BAD THINGS IN YOUR LIFE. and the lives of others, and if it is not confronted immediately, Can lead you to a path of being the prodigal. that is how powerful sin (self) is.

What does it mean to you when Jesus says to believe in Him you have to be a hearer and a doer, not a hearer only ?

He does not say you HAVE TO BE A DOER. He says, if you BELIEVE you WILL BE A DOER, and not just a DOER. Those born of him DO Obey his commands, DO walk in his statutes. He has WRITTEN his law in their hearts. they not only understand them, they do them (not perfectly however)

You can say you have faith till your blue in the faith, if your faith does not produce works, IT IS DEAD! Your not saved, and you never will be saved until you repent, and come fully to God. BELIEF is not enough, it takes FAITH!

What does it mean to you when Jesus says only those who does the Fathers will, will get eternal life ?

Because those who do not do the will of the father HAVE NEVER SEEN GOD. NOR DO THEY KNOW HIM.

This is a faulty excuse to preach works. People can be saved and do many works, But still not be perfect. yet they are still saved.

SOme will remain babes and never grow, but STILL do Gods commands (although not as well.

The standard for salvation is what James said, Break ONE law, your guilty, Your guilty, your cursed. your cursed, YOU NEED SAVED.

No one will EVER be at the point they will obey good enough to be saved,

What does it mean to you when Jesus says those who love Him keep His commandments, those who don't love Him do not keep His commandments ?

What does it mean to you when Paul says to believers that when you sin you will feel Godly sorrow bringing you to repent ?

I can not repent over and over, DO you want me to mock God over and over?

Godly sorrow comes from the chastening of God. and the knowledge yuo have HURT THE ONE You LOVE (GOD)

What does it mean to you when Jesus says if you don't forgive others their sins, you will not be forgiven of yours ?

It means do not expect a blessed life on earth, if you refuse to forgive others because not forgiving places you in sin, thus you are grieving the spirit. He CAN NOT USE YOU

What does it mean to you when Jesus says if you deny others help, you have denied Him ?

lol. How many times have yuo denied God? Every time you SIN you deny God, and promote self.

You do nto even know what sin is, if you did, you would not preach the way you do.

What does it mean to you when Paul says if a believer gets entangled in willful sin again their ending is worse then your beginning ?

Well lets see.

I had gods truth in my hands, I could touch it.

I loved my sin more than God

I rejected his gift (said thanks but no thanks God)

then I get to heaven, and realise how close I was, and now will suffer eternally KNOWING I had it in my hands.

I will suffer FAR more than a person who knew in my heart I was a sinner, But never even listened to Gods message to even give it a try.

as for posting more questions?

Why bother, You never listen to the answer.

Remember, When paul said he (God) Who begun a good work in you (at salvation) will perfect it till the day of christ. ?

You claim you are stronger than God, and God may not be able to do it in your life. and give up and walk away from you. Even though God promised he would NEVEr leave nor forsake us, And ALL that God has given to him, HE WILL LOSE NOT ONE OF THEM.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Now you contradict yourself, for one minute you are sitting here debating that you can not obey the law and now you are saying you will obey it. Which is it with you ? You either obey or you don't obey.

The other thing I will tell you is even though people have the Holy Spirit in them to guide them, God does not take man's free will away. We still have that, which is why blasphemy of the Holy Spirit comes into play. Denying His guidance, which i refuse to do. If He told me to jump up and down 1,000 times today, I would do it.

lol. when are you going to realise. Gods requirement is PERFECTION?

We can not FULFILL Gods requirment, if we could Christ would have stayed in heaven, and not come to suffer in our behalf.

Saying one CAN obey the laws of God, and saying one can FULFILL the law of God (PERFECTION) is two different things.

are yuo ever going to stop excusing your sin?

 

[eternally-gratefull]

(I am not yelling I am speaking from a place of sincerity and firmness)

PLEASE QUIT WITH THE UNFOUNDED FALSE ACCUSATIONS.

A verse is posted with no personal words and you, out of nowhere, make personal accusations.

Stop.

I asked you a question.

As usual. You have no answer. so instead you have to attack.

why are you guys ALWAYS like this?

If your going to post a passage of scripture. You should be ready to explain it. Just posting a passage of scriptur3e is USELESS.

 

[eternally-gratefull]

19Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,20Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, 21Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.

Funny how you missed the truth.

Thy were not saved because they stopped.

They were saved BECAUSE THEY WERE WASHEDAND JUSTIFIED BY GOD

 

[Mitspa]

I think some think if they can just keep most of the law, and do better than most that God will be pleased with them..and they might get into heaven? That's not the gospel and that's not what pleases God! Without faith in Son alone to justify, you cannot please God....and the law is not of faith....those who seek to be justified by the law have fallen from Gods grace....I don't know if some of you have crossed the line into damnation with your attempts at self-righteousness....I hope not...know that you have been warned and on judgment Day...I promise you the only thing you will desire is to be found in Him, not having your own righteousness, which is by the law...but Gods righteousness which is by faith.

I know there is not a person in this whole world who even keeps the first commandment of Moses... Because Christ made it impossible for any man.....love the Lord your God WITH ALL YOUR HEART , MIND AND SOUL... Now if ALL means ALL and all the time....no one can be justified by the law...Only Jesus kept that standard

Here is the greatest law-keeper of his time... after all the striving to keep the law...all your self-righteous efforts are as filthy rags... Not your sin but your righteousness is filthy...Paul calls it dung

Php 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
9 ¶ And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

 

[eternally-gratefull]

The Parable of the Sower answers all those questions.
Is this debate about Grace vs Law, or about whether a person can unearn something they never earned in the first place? If the "seed" (the Word of God) is planted in "good soil" (a predestined, chosen, elect, true Believer), then it produces good fruit. When the seed falls upon the other soils (unbelieving hearts), then it may start to grow, but will not persevere.
Why are there warnings for the church? Because there are those in the church who are not in the Body! How many of us grew up in the church, and needed to hear those warnings to convict us that we were fallen, and needed to be saved, even though we thought we were saved already! And how many times have we heard false teachers, and needed those warnings to stay away from their false doctrines.
We are told to not make those judgement calls about their salvation, but to wait for the Last Day when He will seperate the wheat from the tares. (Because we are fallible, and may pull out some wheat along with the tares), but we are to use those warnings as a guide for our own walk, and instruction for those who have deceived themselves into thinking they have Faith, when they are openly displaying faithlessness.

His sheep hear His voice, and follow... and He will not lose a single one of His sheep... which were chosen for Him by the Father before the foundations of the earth were laid.

amen.

Only one of those groups produced fruit (good works)

non of the rest did,, only one were saved.. non of the rest were ever saved!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Yes,,,my question exactly!!! Interestingly enough very little response . Hmmm

a lawyer does not like getting confronted with questions they can not answer. so do not feel bad

 

[Mitspa]

You are vile. You use vague Scriptural principles to call obedience evil...

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Romans 4:15, "Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression."

1 John 1:8-10, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His Law is not in us."

1 Yahchanan 2:3-5, "Now by this we do know that we know Him: If we keep His Laws. He who says: I know Him, but does not keep His Law(entole), is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoever keeps His Law, in him truly is the love of Yahweh perfected: by this we know that we are in Him."

You don't have any obedience ...you don't keep the law of Moses nor do you keep the law of Christ? All you do is attempt to pull others into your lawless condition.

 

[Mitspa]

You know, mitspa - I have been a member of a Reformed "TULIP" church for over 7 yrs and pastor knows that I don't go for Calvin but as popular as that church is and their outstanding reputation, he won't let me give up my membership and knew all along that I didn't agree with Calvin -- but we all loved each other so very much that I could not put it into words on here if I tried. I'm still a member and we will always stay in touch, though I moved.

It's not this topic that upset me - it is the lying, the twisting of words, the name calling, the nasty replies, the not really taking the time to look at the verses the other Brothers are posting and before you came - it was just as bad if not worse. We never got "Scripture" as replies - just insults and sly accusations - and now you've become almost just like that. I put the others on Ignore but I had more hopes that you could remain a gentlemen like my pastor - but I suppose your idea of 'love' is quite different than his.

Friend my doctrine is not based upon some group...didn't come from accepted set of doctrine that a group of religious men have established... My doctrine comes from having Gods law in my heart and loving the people of the street and in the prisons etc... Unless a person has the evident flow of Gods love (from the Holy Spirit) and takes that and loves others with it...they cannot EVER keep the law of God...because the law is spiritual and its love...Its the love of God from the Holy Spirit...And scriptures themselves conform perfectly to this truth...but most "Christians" don't even know if the have the Holy Spirit...much less loving others with the Holy Spirits love... All this legalism and doctrines of holiness are all vain unless one knows the Holy Spirit and has yielded to His Love... I have been in the holiness groups...legalist ...they are all lawless to Gods true standard...bitter and judgmental people who have no clue to Gods true nature ... They don't walk as Christ walked...they walk as those Christ called children of the devil...hypocrites

 

[eternally-gratefull]

Friend my doctrine is not based upon some group...didn't come from accepted set of doctrine that a group of religious men have established... My doctrine comes from having Gods law in my heart and loving the people of the street and in the prisons etc... Unless a person has the evident flow of Gods love (from the Holy Spirit) and takes that and loves others with it...they cannot EVER keep the law of God...because the law is spiritual and its love...Its the love of God from the Holy Spirit...And scriptures themselves conform perfectly to this truth...but most "Christians" don't even know if the have the Holy Spirit...much less loving others with the Holy Spirits love... All this legalism and doctrines of holiness are all vain unless one knows the Holy Spirit and has yielded to His Love... I have been in the holiness groups...legalist ...they are all lawless to Gods true standard...bitter and judgmental people who have no clue to Gods true nature ... They don't walk as Christ walked...they walk as those Christ called children of the devil...hypocrites

amen thus begs the question.

Did Jesus die so we could follow a code, a creed, a law. Did he live so we can sin?

 

[gb9]

well, according to them, if do this this this, don't do this this this we are saved. nothing about love. nothing about faith. nothing about the fruits of the Sprit.

 

[Mitspa]

amen thus begs the question.

Did Jesus die so we could follow a code, a creed, a law. Did he live so we can sin?

He died to set us free from this fallen world..to deliver us out of this present evil age...and He raised us up with Him so we could live above the fallen things of this world? That we might be one with Him and the Father and know the love the Father has for us... Abba Father He has given us the hidden name of God!

 

[eternally-gratefull]

well, according to them, if do this this this, don't do this this this we are saved. nothing about love. nothing about faith. nothing about the fruits of the Sprit.

You can't boast of your own works, and make yourself look good. if your always focused on loving and serving others.