THE [Great GRACE] Departure...

[GRACE_ambassador]

..or "revolt/rebellion" From The Faith?:

2Th 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall​

not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of​

sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"​

"
...Our purpose in writing this article is not to defend or to attack anyone,
but simply to consider whether arguments for a post-tribulation Rapture
are valid...

...Years ago we printed an article entitled First the Departure, in which
we dealt at length with a passage of Scripture which does explicitly affirm
that the Rapture will precede the tribulation. In this article we gave
conclusive evidence that the words hee apostasia in II Thessalonians 2:3
should have been rendered “the departure” rather than “a falling away”
and that the passage thus reads:

“Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day [ The Day Of​

The LORD ]...shall not come except THE Departure come first, and​

that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”​

The preceding verses and the preceding letter written by Paul to
these same people all bear witness that “The Departure” referred
to is The Departure of believers to go and be with Christ...
"
(CR Stam)

FULL study:
Will The Body Of Christ go through the Great Tribulation?

GRACE And Peace...

 

[Pilgrimshope]

What would Jesus say if asked the question will his followers ( the body of Christ ) go through the great tribulation ?

“For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not: for false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things.

But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:19-27‬ ‭

He was preparing his disciples to go through this terrible time and to stay strong in faith through whatever happened

One couldn’t argue that the apostles and early disciples are part of the body , Paul lives his life bekng persecuted by the Jews for cl veering to Christianity several times barely escaping death , they were all considered lower people because of romes rule infact Christian state persecution was a Roman law for 200 plus years.

Paul and the apostles were killed by Nero and Titus thousands of Christian’s burned alive in Nero’s gardens , thrown to wild beasts in tbe Roman arena for sport and entertainment this is all recorded history just after Jesus died and rose all he began to warn them was coming on them began to come

Rome in 67 ad besieged and destroyed Jerusalem and dispersed the Jews out into all Other nations they left not one stone on another just like Jesus told them would happen the temple itself was ransacked by Rome after they defiled it with pigs blood and other abominations

Peter was crucified , Paul beheaded , James killed by the sword they all suffered through terribly violent times in which they were thy scapegoats of Roman society

Rome had many false gods and were zealous for those false gods in the ancient times Christianity claimed one God and not any of their false gods , but this one God in heaven who has come and made himself known on earth

this turned Rome against the Christian’s early on and made them The object of romes abominations along with the Jews

The great persecution I would say it’s safe to say it’s what Jesus is talking about and preparing them for given how he introduces the subject himself

“in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.”

and then continues on saying it will end eventually after the tribulation ends , giving them hope for what comes after this world after the tribulation he will come after it’s all done and further his elect from earth and heaven is what he said anyways I don’t know of the “ grace doctrine “ agrees but ….after he’s preparing them For what is coming upon them he says to stand strong and they will be saved in the end

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:8-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

see we don’t need to re interpret that it’s the lord plainly telling us sometimes I think people look at the Bible like a rubix cube where everything needs to be re explained but he’s actually explaining this stuff

“ But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:19-27‬ ‭

There’s a message of hope in the gospel it doesn’t say ill
Keep you from anything bad things happening or from evil times in earth or from persecution or tribulation but I’ll go through it with you d rears you for remaining faithful through whatever does come

tribulation is relative one man is born in a rich family in a free country and his life is pretty easy he works hard and goes to college and has a normal life

at the same time other man is born somewhere in Syria , and born into decades of brutal civil war that leaves no building standing across the country

to the second man he’s going through great tribulation while the other man is yelling because the guy driving in front of him is going to slow

The great tribulation began when Jerusalem was besieged and still echoes across the globe today

ukraine , Somalia , Yemen , Syria , Afghanistan , Iraq , ect if a man is born somewhere like that it’s the end of the world type stuff children at school killed with barrel Bombs , Christian’s and Christian missionaries beheaded , bibles banned in most Muslim ruled nations , acknolwedging God has a son considered blasphemy


These things are happening now it’s just hard to look past our neighborhood and see the big picture God paints

 

[Nehemiah6]

The preceding verses and the preceding letter written by Paul to these same people all bear witness that “The Departure” referred to is The Departure of believers to go and be with Christ...

As C. R. Stam notes, There is a good case to be made for translating that Greek word apostasia (from aphistemi) as "departure" rather than "falling away" or even "rebellion" (which is incorrect). In any event, the Church will NOT go through the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation for the simple reason that the Church is not subject to the wrath of God. Just as Enoch, Noah, and Lot did not experience the wrath of God, the Church will be in Heaven when divine judgments come upon the earth.

 

[Nehemiah6]

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.” Mark‬ ‭13:19-27‬ ‭

This is NOT a reference to the Church. How can it be a reference to the Church when the Church descends WITH Christ and His angels at the time when He comes "with power and great glory"? Do you see the absurdity?

Furthermore, Christ does NOT send His angels to gather the Church, since we already know that He comes PERSONALLY as the Divine Bridegroom to receive them unto Himself (John 14:1-3 and other passages). So these "elect" are the believing Jewish remnant gathered supernaturally to Israel when Christ descends to earth with His saints and angels.

 

[Dirtman]

ἀποστασία apostasia
Do not let anyone deceive you in any way, for that day will not come unless the
rebellion
comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction,
ἀποστασία apostasia rebellion; abandonment
noun, nominative, singular, feminine

• CDWGTHB defection; falling away

 

[FreeGrace2]

..or "revolt/rebellion" From The Faith?:

2Th 2:3 "Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall​

not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of​

sin be revealed, the son of perdition;"​

"
...Our purpose in writing this article is not to defend or to attack anyone,
but simply to consider whether arguments for a post-tribulation Rapture
are valid...

...Years ago we printed an article entitled First the Departure, in which
we dealt at length with a passage of Scripture which does explicitly affirm
that the Rapture will precede the tribulation. In this article we gave
conclusive evidence that the words hee apostasia in II Thessalonians 2:3
should have been rendered “the departure” rather than “a falling away”
and that the passage thus reads:

“Let no man deceive you by any means; for that day [ The Day Of​

The LORD ]...shall not come except THE Departure come first, and​

that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition.”​

​

2 Thess 2:1-3 actually STATES that the "gathering" of living believers "when He comes" is AFTER the great departure. btw, are you aware that the "great departure" refers to apostasy?​

​

So, before Jesus comes back with the "armies of heaven" per Rev 19, there will be a falling away, rebellion of believers, and according to the verse you quoted, includes the beast, or more commonly known as the "antichrist", noted by "man of sin be revealed".​

​

So, there will clearly be a falling away or departure of many in the faith, AND the man of sin will be revealed BEFORE Jesus Christ returns at the Second Advent and resurrects/changes all believers.​

The preceding verses and the preceding letter written by Paul to
these same people all bear witness that “The Departure” referred
to is The Departure of believers to go and be with Christ...

That's not how the Greek word is translated:
Strong's Concordance

apostasia: defection, revolt​

Original Word: ἀποστασία, ας, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: apostasia
Phonetic Spelling: (ap-os-tas-ee'-ah)
Definition: defection, revolt
Usage: defection, apostasy, revolt.

So, v.3 refers to what a number of believers will do. And Barna surveys clearly demonstrate already that those who identify as evangelicals show parallel %'s to those who identify as unbelievers. iow, there's not much difference between the two groups when surveyed.

 

[FreeGrace2]

As C. R. Stam notes, There is a good case to be made for translating that Greek word apostasia (from aphistemi) as "departure" rather than "falling away" or even "rebellion" (which is incorrect). In any event, the Church will NOT go through the Tribulation or the Great Tribulation for the simple reason that the Church is not subject to the wrath of God. Just as Enoch, Noah, and Lot did not experience the wrath of God, the Church will be in Heaven when divine judgments come upon the earth.

2 These 2:1-3 plainly SAYS that the "gathering" of living believers will be at the Second Advent.

Consider that EVERY time the NT refers to the COMING of the Lord, Christ, His COMING, etc, it is a direct reference to His SECOND ADVENT.

Proof? In the OT, there are only two advents prophesied of the Messiah. The first was His birth and life as a suffering Servant (Chosen One) and the second will be His coming as King of kings and Lord of lords.

So, 1 Cor 15:23 is a reference to the Second Advent. Same for 2 Thess 2:1.

And, there are NO verses that describe Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. Very curious to leave that out IF IF IF He is planning to do that.

But, no problem. The Bible tells us plainly that the resurrection of all believers will be at the Second Advent. 1 Cor 15:23.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This is NOT a reference to the Church. How can it be a reference to the Church when the Church descends WITH Christ and His angels at the time when He comes "with power and great glory"? Do you see the absurdity?

Furthermore, Christ does NOT send His angels to gather the Church, since we already know that He comes PERSONALLY as the Divine Bridegroom to receive them unto Himself (John 14:1-3 and other passages). So these "elect" are the believing Jewish remnant gathered supernaturally to Israel when Christ descends to earth with His saints and angels.

“This is NOT a reference to the Church. How can it be a reference to the Church when the Church descends WITH Christ and His angels at the time when He comes "with power and great glory"? Do you see the absurdity?”

no lol I don’t see any absurdity I see someone who doesn’t understand who the church is

the church are disciples of Jesus , that’s why they are called the body of Christ, it’s why they are baptized into his name

the church is any Christian including every believer recorders in the account of the gospel

Jesus and the apostles are the foundation of the church they are where the church began all of those early Christian’s recorded in The New Testament are the church to say Jesus speaking to his disciples isnt to the church honestly is ridiculous and shows how far we go to try to be right

The gospel is to the church , thae church consists of anyone who accepts the gospel and yes indeed Jesus was earning his disciples “ the church “ about the persecutions and tribulations ahead

But I’ve noticed if some think something nothing will ever change thier mind because they are convinced of everything they think so it doesn’t matter to them what Jesus has to say to yes indeed the church

the idea that he says one thing to people before he died in the gospel d revenge that no longer applies to his disciples is how and why so many don’t understand anything

Jesus teachings are the church doctrine it’s the foundation of it all d there is no church apart from him and his word