The Holy Ghost is The Father of Jesus Christ
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I am just asking, why three in one why not the seven eyes on the stone before Joshua, like the seven Spirits of God are seen in heaven with the Lamb that was slain?
If all seven pertain to him (the stone) then wouldnt it indicate that is the fulness of God (sevenfold) and again of that is the same fulness of him (sent into the earth) and of whose fulness the church has received being that one same Spirit which divides severally to every man as he wills?
Just fits better then the three in one, if prophecy shows the seven upon one is all
If all seven pertain to him (the stone) then wouldnt it indicate that is the fulness of God (sevenfold) and again of that is the same fulness of him (sent into the earth) and of whose fulness the church has received being that one same Spirit which divides severally to every man as he wills?
Just fits better then the three in one, if prophecy shows the seven upon one is all
if you would post the verses in Rev where it is at I think in the first four chapters I believe Jesus tells us that they are the churches the context of which they are used has to be taken into consideration.
Here, I asked this before on another thread, but I forget which I posted, this should suffice
Similitude of Jesus in the stone (having seven eyes) set before Joshua
Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes
These would be upon him, and so it also says,
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
And likewise we see,
Rev 5:6 And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne ....stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth.
So these were sent out into the earth, but what was received?
John 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace. (Col 2:9)
Try it again this way...
Zec 3:9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes:
Jesus Christ is the stone laid before (upon whom are the seven eyes) and the Lamb also (as it had been slain) shown after as having both seven horns and the seven eyes (which are the seven Spirits of God) sent forth into the earth (even as he had shed forth this) which is of his fullness we have received (and grace for grace)
Like, the seven Spirits of God being the one which divideth severally
1Cr 12:11 But all these worketh that one and the selfsame Spirit, dividing to every man severally as he will.
The stone being Christ, in him dwelled the same (fulness) this was sent into the earth (and of his fulness we have received).
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Friend, I can assure you that I live by what the Word of God says.
"One", as used in scripture, whether in the Old Testament or the New Testament, doesn't always mean a singularity. For example, "two" can be "one" as in UNITED:
"For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife; And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh." (Mark 10:7-8)
Again, "three" can be "one" as in UNITED:
"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (I John 5:7)
Again, "the people" (as in many) can be "one" as in UNITED:
"And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." (Genesis 11:6)
I mean, even here, in the UNITED States of America, we hear of "ONE Nation under God".
When Jesus prayed that we (Christians) "may be one, even as we (the Father and Jesus) are one"...
John chapter 17
[20] Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
[21] That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
[22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
[23] I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
...was He praying that we would become members of the Godhead?
Of course, He was not. Well, what did He mean then when He prayed that we "may be one, even as we (He and the Father) are one"? He prayed that in the same manner in which He and the Father are UNITED in that they never work independently of each other that we, too, would do everything in UNITY with Them as well. This is the "oneness" being spoken of in these scriptures and, again, it's NOT a "oneness" in relation to a singularity.
Hopefully, this helps.
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
What's out of context?
Does scripture teach that two become one or not?
Does scripture teach that three are one or not?
Does scripture teach that the people are one or not?
Did Jesus pray that we would be one as He and the Father are one or not?
Seriously, think long and hard about that last one. Again, Jesus prayed that we would be one AS HE AND THE FATHER ARE ONE.
Are you part of the Godhead?
Are you the same Person as God the Father?
Are you the same Person as Jesus Christ?
Or...are you to walk in UNITY with God the Father and Jesus Christ?
The answer ought to be obvious...
Who is the stone before Joshua?
Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,
God says how he spake by the prophets
Hosea 12:10I have also spoken by the prophets, and I have multiplied visions, and used similitudes, by the ministry of the prophets.
Then Zec continues...
Whats this mean in relation to this mystery stone?
Behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the LORD of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
See the graving
Isaiah 49:16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands...
See the stone...
And I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.
See the Lamb
John 1:29... Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
See how you can show both stone and lamb with the seven eyes because they are in the context of both the stone and the Lamb
well i am truly sorry I do not see it that way Gen 1 :1-3 God, the Spirit of God and the Spoken Word of God
1:26 Let US man man in out Image John 1 : 1
Jesus said Believe and Be Baptized in the Name of The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit singular in context. Jesus said I and the Father are one But HE Jesus ALso said the the "Comforter" would come that too should be obvious no?
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Yes, and...? How does that contradict anything that I've said? There are three, the Father, the Son/Word and the Holy Spirit and these three are one NOT in that They're the Same Person, but in that they always work in UNITY with Each Other.
Again, Jesus prayed that we would be one as He and the Father are one. How, then, are Jesus and the Father one? Are They the Same Person? No, They're not...unless you believe that Jesus prayed that you'd become God. You don't believe that, do you? I hope not. Again, Jesus and the Father (and the Holy Ghost) are one in that they always work together in UNITY. As we walk in UNITY with them, then we become one as They are one.CS1 said:
I don't know that I can make it any simpler/plainer than that...
Not saying saying your wrong, but the reason it is hard to grasp is because it is unprincipled, even the Catholic dogma that in its own catechism states;
237 The Trinity is a mystery of faith in the strict sense, one of the "mysteries that are hidden in God, wh ich can never be known unless they are revealed by God"
I don't know if you have ever discussed the theory of Evolution with an Atheist, but they will claim that evolution proves that there is no God, yet if you ask how life evolved from they will insult your intelligence with the claim that you are ignorant because evolution has nothing to do with the origin of life itself, only the process in which life developed from a single living organism.
Abiogenesis is the science related to the study of how non-living matter became living matter. However, as of date abiogenesis has yet to form a viable scientific model to explain how non-living matter spontaneously became the living matter by which evolution could have even possibly occurred.
Since true science is based upon principles which are fixed and unalterable, such as water freezing at 32 degrees. Thus when the temperature of water reaches 32 degrees it begins to freeze. It does not begin to freeze at 35, 34 or 33, but at 32 degrees, likewise when frozen water begins to heat up pass 32 degrees it begin to melt.
In such, the hypothesis, or belief that water freezes at 32 degrees becomes a 'theory', or rather scientific fact by demonstrating that a water molecule freezes at 32 degrees. However, in order to qualify as valid 'theory' it must contain a 'falsifiability'. A falsifiability is a statement that states that the theory is false if the following occurs. Using the example of water freezing, the the falsiability of the that theory would be "If water freezes at a temperature of 33 degrees or higher then the theory of that water only freezes at temperatures of 32 degrees or less would be false."
Evolution has no falsifiability, nor can it be falsible since it is based upon random mutations as the basis of its hypothesis. How can you disprove a statement of fact when the facts change when you reach the point of disproving it. In such, evolution is not a scientific theory, it is a Catholic doctrine. The Pope did not just announce a few months back that Evolution was a immutable fact for the hell of it, evolution is a weapon like the trinity to pervert and destroy principled reason which threatens the global authority and influence that the Catholic Church has over the people.
So how did the Church obtain knowledge of this secret mystery called the Trinity? And why does the Catholic dogma on the Trinity, never mention the the passage of 1 John 5:7?
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Consider this, your Father, your Mother and your Parents; and these three are one. You dad is not your mother, and your dad is not your Parents but he is your dad. Just as you mother is not you father, nor is she your 'parents'
So now consider that in Matthew 28:19 wherein it is written
Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
Ask a trinitarian the name of the Father, the name of the Son and the name of the Holy Ghost since they are three separate and distinct personages according to the Trinity dogma and all you will hear is the sound of silence.
253 The Trinity is One. We do not confess three Gods, but one God in three persons, the "consubstantial Trinity".[SUP]83[/SUP] The divine persons do not share the one divinity among themselves but each of them is God whole and entire: "The Father is that which the Son is, the Son that which the Father is, the Father and the Son that which the Holy Spirit is, i.e. by nature one God."[SUP]84[/SUP] In the words of the Fourth Lateran Council (1215), "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature."[SUP]85[/SUP]
254 The divine persons are really distinct from one another. "God is one but not solitary."[SUP]86[/SUP] "Father", "Son", "Holy Spirit" are not simply names designating modalities of the divine being, for they are really distinct from one another: "He is not the Father who is the Son, nor is the Son he who is the Father, nor is the Holy Spirit he who is the Father or the Son."[SUP]87[/SUP] They are distinct from one another in their relations of origin: "It is the Father who generates, the Son who is begotten, and the Holy Spirit who proceeds."[SUP]88[/SUP] The divine Unity is Triune.
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So do you adhere to oneness theology? I'm not sure I understand where you were going with the example you gave of the parents. I'm not sure it is an accurate representation of trinitarianism. I honestly don't really understand either theology as much as I try. But I would lean toward trinitarianism being the more viable, simply because oneness theology is often accompanied by some pretty major errors (i.e. have to be baptized to be saved, must speak in tongues as confirmation, etc.).
That's why I came up with the idea (based on scripture) that Christ is actually God's literal Word manifested in the flesh as the bible states. It makes sense to me. Christ would still be God in that context. Something like an extension. His voice. God the Father being the mind or thought, and Jesus being His thought manifested as His spoken Word which is empowered by the Holy Spirit (His force). All three are still God and represented in a very large number of passages but are three separate and distinct persons or "things" of the same God.
If we are made in His image, then we could relate ourselves to this concept quite easily. We form a thought with our mind. We can then speak this thought verbally. And we have a spirit that gives us life so that all this is possible. Three distinct "things" but still only one human being. And if we had God's power, we could then form our words and put them into a body. They would still be us because they can only speak what we think and the words we give them to speak, but they would have their own physical manifestation or representation.
And also in this context and relating to the OP, it would make sense that God would call the Word made flesh His Son. But this doesn't mean he was conceived by the human understanding of conception which I think is what the OP was alluding to ultimately.
my friend this is the description that scripture gives of how God made man...man cannot be three parts....you must choose who you will follow...
Genesis 2:7
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
1 Corinthians 15:45
And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
actually it is only in Christ man receives a Spirit....vs 46 the first man was not spiritual but natural...
[h=1]1 Corinthians 15:44-50King James Version (KJV)[/h] [SUP]44 [/SUP]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
[SUP]45 [/SUP]And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
[SUP]46 [/SUP]Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
[SUP]47 [/SUP]The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.
[SUP]48 [/SUP]As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
[SUP]49 [/SUP]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
[SUP]50 [/SUP]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
I know how man was made... I don't see a distinction between spirit and soul. They are used interchangeably through scripture. Even Paul says our spirit, small s, strives against our flesh. I'm not saying man is triune either. But in a sense we can relate to a triune God in the example I presented.
The example of God that I proposed solves two mysteries for me. 1. Why Jesus said God the Father was greater than him, but he can still claim to be God. 2. Why no one knows the day or the hour of his coming but God the Father Himself.
We know from Colossians that Christ is the image of the invisible God, or His Word. To me, he is the substance or the tangible representation of the invisible God. Just as we form words to give our invisible thoughts substance, so Christ, the Word, is the image of the invisible God. And His Spirit would be what permeates throughout all things, God's power which empowers all things good and restrains all things evil, for God's own purposes.
I don't see how what I proposed contradicts the Trinity doctrine either, but like I said, I have trouble wrapping my mind around that doctrine because no one can explain it to me in a way that makes sense. Three persons, One God -seems- to indicate polytheism to me. What I've proposed solves this dilemma for me while not exactly opposing the Trinity theory. I also don't adhere to the oneness doctrine at all.
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
Should history repeat itself, then you'll see the same soon enough:
http://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/106997-word-made-flesh-5.html#post1873961
I've personally dealt with this guy on several different occasions on another forum and I was at least partly responsible for getting him banned on more than one occasion AFTER trying to reason with him. Should he return today, then mark my words:JackHammer said:
He'll start telling us that God loves him more than anybody else on the face of the earth...and that he's the messiah.
The guy needs a lot of help and a lot of prayer.
He's been this deceived or deluded FOR YEARS.
S
Sirk
Guest
J
JesusistheChrist
Guest
He's not.
Again, I've personally dealt with this man on multiple occasions in the past and while he was posting under different usernames after having been banned. He believes the things which he says and, again, mark my words:
Should he return today (or whenever), then he'll start telling us that God loves him more than any other person on the face of the earth...and that he's the messiah. He already started hinting at the same yesterday when he referred to himself as "the Lord's Champion" on the other thread.
Anyhow, the guy does need a lot of prayer. Let's not miss this opportunity to pray for him that he might be delivered from THE DEMON which is actually driving him.
scripture says there is one God ......man teaches there are three persons....The Word was with God and the Word was God and all things was made by the Word...the word was made flesh...where do you see a trinity in there???
Here is the Father and the Word who was made flesh....being ascribed in the sustenance and creation of all things...do you see a third party being ascribed any part of ALL...Go now and look at the scripture and read vs 7 ....
1 Corinthians 8:6
But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.