The Israel of God

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Yay - let's big ourselves up to be spiritual this or saved that.
The Bible doesn't have to say it.
Facts come from the Bible.
And if the facts don't fit our own self-importance, we make it spiritual - it doesn't mean what it says, it only means it spiritually.

The word you could use is virtually - it's pretend.
So hold fast to your Romanic ideas.
You'll be virtually saved :)
 
Bookreader said:
Yay - let's big ourselves up to be spiritual this or saved that.
The Bible doesn't have to say it.
Facts come from the Bible.
And if the facts don't fit our own self-importance, we make it spiritual - it doesn't mean what it says, it only means it spiritually.

The word you could use is virtually - it's pretend.
So hold fast to your Romanic ideas.
You'll be virtually saved :)
Click to expand...

okay....so Israel of God IS NOT ancient Israel who was saved; NOT the remnant of jews the Lord saved; NOT any of the apostles or any early JEWISH people (since they can't be called the Church - can they be called Christians?).

so who are the jewish NT apostles?

NOT the Israel of God? or they ARE the Israel of God, and God kept them separate from.....WHO? gentiles?

gentiles in the "church age"?

so gentiles in the Church Age are NOT the Israel of God. << is that what you mean?

what about jews who join the "church" which is NOT the Israel of God?

what are they called?

PLEASE TELL ME WHERE THE APOSTLES FIT in your scheme.

thx
 
Bookreader said:
Yay - let's big ourselves up to be spiritual this or saved that.
The Bible doesn't have to say it.
Facts come from the Bible.
And if the facts don't fit our own self-importance, we make it spiritual - it doesn't mean what it says, it only means it spiritually.

The word you could use is virtually - it's pretend.
So hold fast to your Romanic ideas.
You'll be virtually saved :)
Click to expand...

romanic ideas?
really?

just keep it really simple please.

you keep flesh Israel and the Church separate...right?

please tell me who constitutes the Church? - who is in/part of the Church?

any jews?

are jews Israel?
 
Bookreader said:
Yay - let's big ourselves up to be spiritual this or saved that.
The Bible doesn't have to say it.
Facts come from the Bible.
And if the facts don't fit our own self-importance, we make it spiritual - it doesn't mean what it says, it only means it spiritually.

The word you could use is virtually - it's pretend.
So hold fast to your Romanic ideas.
You'll be virtually saved :)
Click to expand...

I find this snarky post quite perplexing...especially that last part.

Can I assume you're saying that unless one holds to dual-covenant theology, one is romanticizing what God says, and cannot be truly saved? Just virtually?


Could be just me, but that seems quite an accusation.
I wish you will please explain?
thanks.
 
psychomom said:
I find this snarky post quite perplexing...especially that last part.

Can I assume you're saying that unless one holds to dual-covenant theology, one is romanticizing what God says, and cannot be truly saved? Just virtually?


Could be just me, but that seems quite an accusation.
I wish you will please explain?
thanks.
Click to expand...

hi ellie...it's that fuzzy church age-Plan-B-not-sure-who-christians-are-or-why-God-decided-on-a-church-when-He-really-has-flesh-unbelievers-in-mind thingee.

not sure how it works in ppl's minds.

if anyone has a virtual make-believe salvation going on it's those who cant decide or articulate what the church is for and who is in it.
seems to me:confused:

Jesus isn't King now, supposedly...just king-of-our-hearts kinda thing.
mkay

maybe i don't unnerstand.

that's what this thread is for i reckon.

mind you...Scofield said God kinda went OH NO! and was taken by surprise when the Israelites rejected Jesus so He scrambled to.....oh you know
 
zone said:
hi ellie...it's that fuzzy church age-Plan-B-not-sure-who-christians-are-or-why-God-decided-on-a-church-when-He-really-has-flesh-unbelievers-in-mind thingee.

not sure how it works in ppl's minds.

if anyone has a virtual make-believe salvation going on it's those who cant decide or articulate what the church is for and who is in it.
seems to me:confused:

Jesus isn't King now, supposedly...just king-of-our-hearts kinda thing.
mkay

maybe i don't unnerstand.

that's what this thread is for i reckon.
Click to expand...

firstly, that bit about self-importance.
AS IF we can ever make ourselves important!
i guess the only way we're not self-important is if we believe God did not give to the nation of Israel absolutely everything He promised He would.
sigh

i would, however, appreciate his answer as to the "pretend" salvation crack.
i mean, i don't think i'm normally this cranky, but that was over the top.

love you,
el
 
zone said:
14 But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
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The way I read this is 'peace upon them and also mercy upon the Israel of GOD.'

What's that Hebrew thing where they describe the same thing using two different identifiers (them, Israel of GOD)?
 
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HeRoseFromTheDead said:
The way I read this is 'peace upon them and also mercy upon the Israel of GOD.'

What's that Hebrew thing where they describe the same thing using two different identifiers (them, Israel of GOD)?
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". . .what counts is a new creation. Peace and mercy to all who follow this rule, even to the Israel of God."

"Even" means "that is."

The Israel of God is the new creation, those in Christ.
 
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My point was said sarcastically. I didn't mean it to be unpleasant but to illustrate the problem I was arguing against.

For the simple reason that some people seem to think they can selectively decide which parts of scripture are metaphorical and which are not. When the Bible says Israel it means Israel. If there is reason to believe it is a metaphor then it can only be because it is clear, not because it fits better with our pre-established ideas of where we stand in relation to God. If we believe we are the Israel of God then of course we have to make scripture metaphorical in order for it to make sense. I feel scripture should be taken at face value as a first choice and our beliefs should come from it, rather than colouring how we interpret it.

But some folk seem to think that because there appears to be no Israel now (which fits their interpretation of how it should look) that there will not be an Israel before the end days. There is no reason to believe we know how things will be in the future. That would be naive at best.

Sorry if my earlier post was confusing and psychomom (and others) I certainly meant no offense. I apologise if you felt any.
 
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Either in the Old Covenant or the New Covenant; the Israel of God is the same: In either Covenant it was the faithful who made up the Israel of God. God was in the process, during the time these things were being written, of divorcing His wife, Old Covenant Israel and preparing to stone her to death for her unfaithfulness, (or her Whoredom). At the same time the Bride of Jesus (God), was being brought forth unto the Bridegroom. This was the End times, the last days spoken of by the Prophets and the Apostles. When either the Prophets or Apostles spoke of the sun being blotted out, the moon turning to blood, or the heavens rolling up as a scroll; they were not speaking of the end of the literal world, but of the only world they ever knew, the Creation Covenant in Adam.
The Old Covenant Creation Way in Adam was destroyed, and there is no more, such a thing as an Old Covenant Israel upon the face of this earth. There is not two Covenant Israels in the earth today as we speak. There are those who go by the name of Israel, who are descendants of those who were cast out of the kingdom nearly 2000 years ago; and there is New Covenant Israel who are the faithful of God in Christ Jesus (either Jew or Gentile) that are tied together with the faithful of the Old Way (because the Jews of this evil generation were invited in first), and are the true descendants of Abraham. So you are correct, when Paul speaks of the Israel of God there should be no mistake about who he is speaking of. The Messiah's birth life and death, and this last generation from 30ad to 70ad, marked the last days, the end times! This was the end of the Creation Covenant in Adam, this is why Paul referred to Christ Jesus as the New Creation (i e the 2nd Adam), and those believers as new creatures in this New Creation. The Nation of Israel today, and the New Jewish State in the Middle East, has no special Covenant with God except Jesus Christ and Him Crucified! This has nothing to do with me not liking Jews because I've liked almost every Jew I've ever known, not all, but most. Jesus was a Jew. He told the Jews He lived, and was born with, that they were a wicked, evil and perverse generation, Jesus told them their fathers, and forefathers were the wicked Jews who had murdered the Prophets. Jesus told them that the kingdom (of the Promise) would be taken from them and given to another, and so He did, and so it is, unto this very day. Jesus has taken His Bride, He is not looking for another bride! The faithful of the Jews, of that evil generation was His Bride. God is not going to resurrect the Whore, whom He Stoned and put away.
The Church, or Light of the wilderness; has become the Church ,or Light set upon a hill; and this is why Paul could call the New Covenant Way, the Israel of God. It's a joke every time someone says their living in the last days, or end times, according to the ancient prophecies. The Prophets of old could have cared less about people living 2000 to 4000 years in the future, {what they saw was the end of God's special Covenant with His Covenant people Israel} and they could neither understand nor bare it! Their love for God and their people were great to say the least. The Apostle Paul would have known, there was no greater teacher of the Jews then him; he knew who the Israel of God was, he had many of them put to death. So Paul knew who the Israel of God was as he lived in real time, it was New Covenant Israel. The question is, are you a part of the Israel of God, today?
 
Bookreader said:
My point was said sarcastically. I didn't mean it to be unpleasant but to illustrate the problem I was arguing against.

For the simple reason that some people seem to think they can selectively decide which parts of scripture are metaphorical and which are not. When the Bible says Israel it means Israel
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Except when it doesn't, as in Gal 6:16, where it means the new creation, and in

1Pe 2:10 - where Peter says that the promise spoken to Israel (Hos 2:23) applies to the Gentiles.

Heb 8:6-13, 10:15-18 - where the author says the promise to Israel of a new covenant (Jer 31:31-34) is fulfilled in the Gentile church, which is the true Israel.

Ac 15:13-18 - where James says the promise (Am 911-12) to rebuild David's tent is fulfilled in God taking to himself a people from the Gentiles.
 
We seem to have a confusion over what is natural and what is by blessing.

Was Jacob naturally Israel? Or, was Jacob naturally Hebrew and Israel by blessing?

Being as Jacob did not inherit the name Israel, how could he then pass on the name Israel through his flesh? Was Jacob's flesh described by the blessing of the name Israel, or was Jacob's faith described by the blessing of the name Israel?

Then it falls that to be a descendant by flesh of Jacob is to be Hebrew as was Jacob's flesh.

But to be of the blessing which is Israel one must bear the faith which the name describes.
 
Many have difficulty understanding exactly what the church is because many have a poor understanding of what God's temple is. This has in a large way been caused by their not having been taught the proper interpretation of singular and plural Koine' Greek pronouns, such as are well divided in the KJV (not the NKJV which failed to carry this feature over).

In the KJV, the translators faithfully used thee, thou, thy, and thine to denote singular Greek pronouns. And, in the KJV, the translators faithfully used ye, you, your, and yours to denote plural Greek pronouns.

In other Bible versions this is accomplished by different methods, however, not all, like the NKJV, even bother to highlight this difference. That is a bit of a disservice to the reader because then they must struggle more to understand what they have read or look up the pronouns to determine whether they were singular of plural.

Why is this important? 1 Corinthians 3:16 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?"

Now, many read that and being unaware of the KJV's method of highlighting plural pronouns interpret "ye" as singular. They thus think that Paul is referring to their personal body of flesh. However, he is not meaning that. He is speaking to the group as the collective one body of Christ, which he describes in greater detail at Ephesians 2: 14-22.

There also in Ephesians, just before explaining more clearly what the temple of God is, Paul says, Ephesians 2:10 "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them."

We find that he explained those good works in more detail there in 1 Corinthians 3:6-11. Paul taught all who joined to Christ's body to be busy bringing others to Christ.

They thus were all busy bringing yet others into the church, even some whose faith was the quality of wood, hay, and stubble. Many of these wood, hay and stubble ones lacked in true appreciation for spiritual things and were there more for social reasons or to make a show of their intelligence. That is why Paul warned, 1 Corinthians 3:13 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." And Paul warned, 1 Corinthians 3:17-19 "If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are. Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness."

And only two chapters later we find this: 1 Corinthians 5:1 "It is reported commonly that there is fornication among you, and such fornication as is not so much as named among the Gentiles, that one should have his father's wife. And ye are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he that hath done this deed might be taken away from among you."

Why was that important? 1 Corinthians 5:6-8 "Your glorying is not good. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump? Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: Therefore let us keep the feast, not with old leaven, neither with the leaven of malice and wickedness; but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

Their failure to be on guard against allowing such corruption to reside in Christ's body would hinder God's spirit among the, as God will not dwell in the presence of unholiness.

1 Corinthians 5:4-5 "In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when ye are gathered together, and my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus."

That is speaking about destroying the flesh out of the church that God's spirit might be saved among them. It has nothing to do with trying to help the sinner at this point.

The church needs to understand that the flesh is to be left as dead with Christ at Calvary. It cannot be allowed to yet live among the body, else it makes a mockery of Christ as though he died to become a shelter for sin.
 
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I should have completed that last post this way"

The church needs to understand that the flesh is to be left as dead with Christ at Calvary. It cannot be allowed to yet live among the body, else it makes a mockery of Christ as though he died to become a shelter for sin. That is why Paul said, 1 Corinthians 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ."
 
kardiaoangelous said:
Was Jacob naturally Israel? Or, was Jacob naturally Hebrew and Israel by blessing?
Click to expand...

What does that mean?
God gave Jacob a new name - Israel.
Israel is Jacob. Jacob is Israel.
God said to Israel that his descendants would inherit the promises God made to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob/Israel.

Saying that a person who is named twice is somehow onlt blessed with
It is clear from scripture that people often had more than one name (Abram, Joseph, Daniel, Peter, and, I think, others). Israel was another name for Jacob.
Gen 32:28 And He said, "Your name shall no longer be called Jacob, but Israel; for you have struggled with God and with men, and have prevailed."
Gen 35:10 And God said to him, "Your name is Jacob; your name shall not be called Jacob anymore, but Israel shall be your name." So He called his name Israel.
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That is not a name given as a blessing, it is a name given to describe what Jacob had done (fighting God and others) and, as it turns out, what his descendents did for thousands of years thereafter.

God decided the people of Israel - i.e. the descendents of Jacob/Israel - would be his chosen.
He made it clear they would be His people and that when they looked to Him he would love them and when they turned from Him He would curse them. There was to be no end to this. If they are presently cursed then when they turn to him He will love them as His chosen people once more.
Also note that Abraham only blessed his son Isaac (not Ishmael).
And Isaac only blessed his son Jacob/Israel (not Esau).
But Israel blessed all his sons
Gen 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel, and this is what their father spoke to them. And he blessed them; he blessed each one according to his own blessing.
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That is not to say that gentiles cannot be saved through Jesus Christ. But we are not Israel as we are not the descendents of Israel.

The simple fact is, since the church was given power by a pagan Emperor they have strived to disconnect Christianity from Israel. Rome or Constantinople were to be the centre of the church, not Jerusalem. This of course led to persecution of the Jews ever since (we see it on this board - where Jews, it seems, are held in much more contempt than almost any other non-Christian group).

I know some people need to think they are not just loved by God and saved by God's grace (as if that wasn't the most awesome thing in the world!!), but they want to be Israel. But they are not. Our connection to God is that we are baptised 'in Christ'.

Surely I am not this 'spiritual Israel' people talk about as Israel means "fights with God"
 
Bookreader said:
What does that mean?
God gave Jacob a new name - Israel.
Israel is Jacob. Jacob is Israel.
God said to Israel that his descendants would inherit the promises God made to Abraham and to Isaac and to Jacob/Israel.

Saying that a person who is named twice is somehow onlt blessed with
It is clear from scripture that people often had more than one name (Abram, Joseph, Daniel, Peter, and, I think, others). Israel was another name for Jacob.


That is not a name given as a blessing, it is a name given to describe what Jacob had done (fighting God and others) and, as it turns out, what his descendents did for thousands of years thereafter.

God decided the people of Israel - i.e. the descendents of Jacob/Israel - would be his chosen.
He made it clear they would be His people and that when they looked to Him he would love them and when they turned from Him He would curse them. There was to be no end to this. If they are presently cursed then when they turn to him He will love them as His chosen people once more.
Also note that Abraham only blessed his son Isaac (not Ishmael).
And Isaac only blessed his son Jacob/Israel (not Esau).
But Israel blessed all his sons


That is not to say that gentiles cannot be saved through Jesus Christ. But we are not Israel as we are not the descendents of Israel.

The simple fact is, since the church was given power by a pagan Emperor they have strived to disconnect Christianity from Israel. Rome or Constantinople were to be the centre of the church, not Jerusalem. This of course led to persecution of the Jews ever since (we see it on this board - where Jews, it seems, are held in much more contempt than almost any other non-Christian group).

I know some people need to think they are not just loved by God and saved by God's grace (as if that wasn't the most awesome thing in the world!!), but they want to be Israel. But they are not. Our connection to God is that we are baptised 'in Christ'.

Surely I am not this 'spiritual Israel' people talk about as Israel means "fights with God"
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You can't change the facts which are there for all to read in Genesis. It quite clearly says Jacob wrestled for the blessing and that was why he was given the name Israel. The name describes the fortitude of Jacob's faith in having persisted so for that blessing.

Read and weep.

Have to get my granddaughter off to school or I would also answer the modern lies you have espoused.
 
But quickly I will say that your downfall is that you stereotype all Christians as believing Constantine was a good guy.

You have one here that has studied history and knows the perversion caused of Constantine's political agenda, but it is not as you claim. The festivals were not there to start with and that is what made it so easy for Constantine to pick them up from the old Jewish practices and insert them for his selfish use.

You have rewritten history and listened to liars with their own agenda.
 
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