The Israel of God

[SarahM777]

And that poetic language - and that pictorial language shows old men living till an old age "or an old man who does not live out his years; the one who dies at a hundred will be thought a mere child; infants not dying young but living till old age "Never again will there be in it; an infant who lives but a few days"

the pictorial poetic language shows "death" . . . . in the eternal Kingdom there will be NO death - Does this pictorial poetic language mean something else when stated "one who dies"?

Peaceful,think this through. In verse 19 God says this

I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

You would agree people cry when people die correct? Then if there is no sound of weeping and crying wouldn't that mean there is NO DEATH? It makes no sense to say that people would not cry if people are STILL DYING.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Peaceful,think this through. In verse 19 God says this

I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.

You would agree people cry when people die correct? Then if there is no sound of weeping and crying wouldn't that mean there is NO DEATH? It makes no sense to say that people would not cry if people are STILL DYING.

Well it could mean NO DEATH except that the following verses contradict NO DEATH . . .

So . . . when God says "there shall be no more thence an infant of days" - (no infant/child will die early) . . . "the old man will fill his days" . . . "for the child shall die an hundred years old" . . .that really isn't saying that death is still around? Also, Sarah - there are other reasons that people weep and cry.

"the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed" - problem with this also - sinners in the eternal kingdom - I don't think so. . . . 2 Peter 3:13 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

 

[SarahM777]

Well it could mean NO DEATH except that the following verses contradict NO DEATH . . .

So . . . when God says "there shall be no more thence an infant of days" - (no infant/child will die early) . . . "the old man will fill his days" . . . "for the child shall die an hundred years old" . . .that really isn't saying that death is still around? Also, Sarah - there are other reasons that people weep and cry.

"the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed" - problem with this also - sinners in the eternal kingdom - I don't think so. . . . 2 Peter 3:13 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Go back and read it in CONTEXT from verse 17. Verse 17 tells us what God is talking about. The context is the NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH.

 

[zone]

Either that which would seem to be the case or one of two other possibilities,one would have to defy the laws of physics or we would need to technologically advanced to where one could miniaturize them. (I don't think were quite that far in technology yet)

well, currently looking at the roman army...stationed at the euphrates

 

[RuthHannah]

Well it could mean NO DEATH except that the following verses contradict NO DEATH . . .

So . . . when God says "there shall be no more thence an infant of days" - (no infant/child will die early) . . . "the old man will fill his days" . . . "for the child shall die an hundred years old" . . .that really isn't saying that death is still around? Also, Sarah - there are other reasons that people weep and cry.

"the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed" - problem with this also - sinners in the eternal kingdom - I don't think so. . . . 2 Peter 3:13 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

death is in the 1000 years Jesus Kingdom id different from God kingdom

 

[SarahM777]

well, currently looking at the roman army...stationed at the euphrates

Yeah but that is past history which of course doesn't really mean anything for future fulfillment. (Although it does mean something for past fulfillment)

 

[peacefulbeliever]

that was the prophecy about them - as they were in captivity in Babylon.
the prophet was shown what would happen for them when they returned to the land and the time of restoration and the Spirit came - Pentecost.
SOME of them mourned there and considered themselves as good as dead.


1 Peter 1:3
Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! In his great mercy he has given us new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

"Then He said to me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel. Behold, they say, Our bones are dried up and our hope is lost; we are completely cut off.. . . And I shall put My Spirit in you and you shall live, and I shall place you in your own land."

So Pentecost happened to the whole house of Israel - the whole house of Israel received holy Spirit and the whole house of Israel have been placed in their own land? Don't think so - Some believed and some believed not - so the whole house of Israel did not receive holy Spirit -

And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken and some believed not.

The thing is God's words are perfect, so when he says the whole house of Israel he meant the whole house of Israel. There is no figure of speech in that phrase.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

Go back and read it in CONTEXT from verse 17. Verse 17 tells us what God is talking about. The context is the NEW HEAVENS AND NEW EARTH.

I did read the context and I know what God is talking about. My question is - If the whole context is speaking of the eternal kingdom - why does it set up a contradiction with what is said in the scope of scripture concerning the same subject. The thing is Sarah I can't reconcile - 1) "the child shall die" . . . with 2) "there shall be no more death" Rev. 21:1
nor 1) "the sinner" . . . . with 2) "wherein dwelleth righteousness" 2 Peter 3:13.

 

[zone]

Yeah but that is past history which of course doesn't really mean anything for future fulfillment. (Although it does mean something for past fulfillment)

1st century roman centurion on horseback

Revelation 9
7The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle.

roman centurion 50AD

roman cavalry 2nd century AD

roman legionary 1st century

9th legion

etc.

 

[SarahM777]

I did read the context and I know what God is talking about. My question is - If the whole context is speaking of the eternal kingdom - why does it set up a contradiction with what is said in the scope of scripture concerning the same subject. The thing is Sarah I can't reconcile - 1) "the child shall die" . . . with 2) "there shall be no more death" Rev. 21:1
nor 1) "the sinner" . . . . with 2) "wherein dwelleth righteousness" 2 Peter 3:13.

OK look at it again and that out the verse numbers. (They are not really there,those have been added and it messes things up) Now read it like this.

Isaiah 65

“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
First God tells us He will create New Heavens and a New Earth.

Then He tells us what it will be like in the New Heavens and new Earth

He tells us the former things WILL NOT BE REMEMBERED.

He is telling us in Jerusalem those things will NEVER happen AGAIN. He is saying again that the former things will BE NO MORE.

Take out where people have put the verse numbers and then read it.

What does it mean when He says NEVER AGAIN will there be in it an INFANT who lives but a few days?

 

[zone]

1st century roman centurion on horseback

Revelation 9
7The appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads appeared to be crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8They had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions. 9They had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle.

Revelation 9
5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth.

9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.

10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.

...

Titus began the siege of Jerusalem in April AD70. The defenders held out for five months, but by the end of August the temple area was occupied. The holy house was burned down. A time period of five months.

- F.F. Bruce, New Testament History, Garden City, NY: Anchor Books, 1969


The madness of the seditious did also increase together with their famine, and both those miseries were every day inflamed more and more; for there was no corn which any where appeared publicly, but the robbers came running into, and searched men’s private houses; and then, if they found any, they tormented them, because they had denied they had any; and if they found none, they tormented them worse, because they supposed they had more carefully concealed it.

- Josephus, Wars 5:10:2

hmmm....

 

[zone]

Legionary Camps in Israel and the Province of Syria

"Tiles found in Caesarea Maritima, built in the second decade BC, suggest that the legion was at that time based in Judaea. Later X Fretensis moved to Syria. In 6 AD it was stationed in that province together with legions III Gallica, VI Ferrata, and XII Fulminata. In the same year, Publius Sulpicius Quirinus, governor of Syria, led these legions in the suppression of the revolt that sprung out after the deposition of Herod Archelaus. Under Nero, in 58-63 AD, X Fretensis participated in the campaigns of Gnaeus Domitius Corbulo against the Parthians. First Jewish-Roman War. Ruins of the city of Gamla, conquered by X Fretensis in 68 AD. X Fretensis was centrally involved in the First Jewish-Roman War (66–73 AD), under the supreme command of Vespasian. In 66 AD, the X Fretensis and V Macedonica went to Alexandria for an invasion of Ethiopia planned by Nero. However, the two legions were needed in Judaea to suppress a revolt. After spending the winter in Ptolemais Ace (modern Acre, Israel), X Fretensis and V Macedonica relocated in the coastal city of Caesarea Maritima (67/68). This was due to the large number of legions being mobilized in Ptolemais, under Marcus Ulpius Traianus, future governor of Syria and father of the emperor Trajan. During that same winter, the Caesarea camp of Xth and Vth hosted Vespasian, who was forced to go to Rome the following year, where he seized power. Vespasian's son, Titus finished the suppression of the revolt.

By 70, the rebellion in all of Iudaea had been crushed, except for Jerusalem and a few fortresses, including Masada. In that year X Fretensis, in conjunction with V Macedonica, XII Fulminata, and XV Apollinaris, began the siege of Jerusalem, stronghold of the rebellion. The Xth camped on the Mount of Olives. During the siege, Legio X gained fame in the effective use of their various war machines. It was noted that they were able to hurl stones that weighted a talent (about 25 kg) a distance of two furlongs (400 m) or further. The projectiles of their ballistae caused heavy damage to the ramparts. According to Josephus (vol. III of his history of Judaean war) Larcius Lepidus was the commanding officer of the X Legion. The siege of Jerusalem lasted five months and the besieged population experienced all the terrible rigors of starvation. Finally, the combined assaults of the legions succeeded in taking the city, which was then subjected to destruction."

- Wikipedia

Revelation 16:21
And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

 

[peacefulbeliever]

OK look at it again and that out the verse numbers. (They are not really there,those have been added and it messes things up) Now read it like this.

Isaiah 65

“See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind.
But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
“Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years;
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach[a] a hundred
will be considered accursed.
First God tells us He will create New Heavens and a New Earth.

Then He tells us what it will be like in the New Heavens and new Earth

He tells us the former things WILL NOT BE REMEMBERED.

He is telling us in Jerusalem those things will NEVER happen AGAIN. He is saying again that the former things will BE NO MORE.

Take out where people have put the verse numbers and then read it.

What does it mean when He says NEVER AGAIN will there be in it an INFANT who lives but a few days?

Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days . . . . never again will there be an infant born that will die before it reaches old age. That does not say that "there is no death" only that one will not die until they reach old age. Here again - no marriage in the eternal kingdom = therefore, no infants being born in the eternal kingdom. Just because there are no verse breaks does not change the meaning of the "words" Sarah. It still says "the one who dies at a hundred will be thought of as a mere child" - doesn't that still speak of death - someone dying? Eternal life is Eternal life - NO END - NO DEATH . . . . It's not that hard - zone's favorite saying! lol

 

[SarahM777]

Never again will there be in it an infant who lives but a few days . . . . never again will there be an infant born that will die before it reaches old age. That does not say that "there is no death" only that one will not die until they reach old age. Here again - no marriage in the eternal kingdom = therefore, no infants being born in the eternal kingdom. Just because there are no verse breaks does not change the meaning of the "words" Sarah. It still says "the one who dies at a hundred will be thought of as a mere child" - doesn't that still speak of death - someone dying? Eternal life is Eternal life - NO END - NO DEATH . . . . It's not that hard - zone's favorite saying! lol

So what you are really saying is that people will die in the new heavens and new earth. Because that is what prefaces the whole passage.

 

[konroh]

At the greatest square mileage they give for the widest measurements for the valley and the plains including is 1,000 square miles which means you are down to a 1 ft x 1 ft square for each and every single man,can you or anyone else please explain how that 200,000,000 human man army can at all be literal?

I'm not sure who was doing the math earlier in reference to the 200 million army but your figures are quite off.

The point about a 200 million man army marching 10 across does not take 14,000 miles with 3 feet of space for each man.
20 million X 3 = 60 million, 60 million / 5280 = 11,363 miles

You were close on that one, but the other figure is where your math gets disastrous.

1000 square miles is 5280 feet X 5280 feet X 1000 = 27,878,400,000 ft; for an army of 200 million that give 139 feet of space per person! or 10 feet by 14 feet per person.

With 5000 square miles each person would have 700 square feet of space, or 26 feet by 26 feet per person.

So to take the figures literally is not impossible. Admittedly the density gets to a level beyond even the most populated places on earth, but let's see the numbers for what they are. It is entirely possible for there to be a 200 million person army within the borders of Israel or Megiddo.

 

[zone]

I'm not sure who was doing the math earlier in reference to the 200 million army but your figures are quite off. It is entirely possible for there to be a 200 million person army within the borders of Israel or Megiddo.

without anyone intervening?
without Israel nuking them?
nah

 

[BradC]

Revelation 9
5 And they were not given authority to kill them, but to torment them for five months. Their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it strikes a man. 6 In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will desire to die, and death will flee from them.

7 The shape of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle. On their heads were crowns of something like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 They had hair like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth.

9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots with many horses running into battle.

10 They had tails like scorpions, and there were stings in their tails. Their power was to hurt men five months.

...

Titus began the siege of Jerusalem in April AD70. The defenders held out for five months, but by the end of August the temple area was occupied. The holy house was burned down. A time period of five months.

- F.F. Bruce, New Testament History, Garden City, NY: Anchor Books, 1969


The madness of the seditious did also increase together with their famine, and both those miseries were every day inflamed more and more; for there was no corn which any where appeared publicly, but the robbers came running into, and searched men’s private houses; and then, if they found any, they tormented them, because they had denied they had any; and if they found none, they tormented them worse, because they supposed they had more carefully concealed it.

- Josephus, Wars 5:10:2

hmmm....

Rev 9:1-4 Then the fifth angel blew [his] trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth; and to the angel was given the key of the shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit).
2 He opened the long shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit), and smoke like the smoke of a huge furnace puffed out of the long shaft, so that the sun and the atmosphere were darkened by the smoke from the long shaft.
3 Then out of the smoke locusts came forth on the earth, and such power was granted them as the power the earth’s scorpions have.
4 They were told not to injure the herbage of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only [to attack] such human beings as do not have the seal (mark) of God on their foreheads.

Here is the first four verses of that chapter that start you off in your explanation of verses 5-10 of Revelation 9 declared by you as already being fulfilled in 70AD. Perhaps you would like to give us some figures of speech and word pictures of verses 1-4 that would capture the home source of these locusts being opened by a star that from heaven to the earth with a key given to him to the bottomless pit. Perhaps this is where Titus came from also as the angel of the bottomless pit in verse 11 whose real name was Abaddon and Apollyon with all his long haired soldiers. And what was all this about not hurting the grass or green things or green trees but only those who did not have the seal of God in their foreheads? Were not those who were sealed, the 140,000 children of the tribes of Israel of Rev 7? Oh no, did you forget that Zone by any chance? It's so terrible that you of all people would overlook such an obvious declarative statement of truth as to who these locust were to abstain from stinging, hurting and tormenting for those five months. Are you sure this scene, as you have described it, is what took place in 70AD, for there is so much that you have not accounted for including those stings they had in their tails, was that the horses tail or some other 'tale' to be told.

 

[zone]

Rev 9:1-4 Then the fifth angel blew [his] trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth; and to the angel was given the key of the shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit).
2 He opened the long shaft of the Abyss (the bottomless pit), and smoke like the smoke of a huge furnace puffed out of the long shaft, so that the sun and the atmosphere were darkened by the smoke from the long shaft.
3 Then out of the smoke locusts came forth on the earth, and such power was granted them as the power the earth’s scorpions have.
4 They were told not to injure the herbage of the earth nor any green thing nor any tree, but only [to attack] such human beings as do not have the seal (mark) of God on their foreheads.

Here is the first four verses of that chapter that start you off in your explanation of verses 5-10 of Revelation 9 declared by you as already being fulfilled in 70AD. Perhaps you would like to give us some figures of speech and word pictures of verses 1-4 that would capture the home source of these locusts being opened by a star that from heaven to the earth with a key given to him to the bottomless pit. Perhaps this is where Titus came from also as the angel of the bottomless pit in verse 11 whose real name was Abaddon and Apollyon with all his long haired soldiers. And what was all this about not hurting the grass or green things or green trees but only those who did not have the seal of God in their foreheads? Were not those who were sealed, the 140,000 children of the tribes of Israel of Rev 7? Oh no, did you forget that Zone by any chance? It's so terrible that you of all people would overlook such an obvious declarative statement of truth as to who these locust were to abstain from stinging, hurting and tormenting for those five months. Are you sure this scene, as you have described it, is what took place in 70AD, for there is so much that you have not accounted for including those stings they had in their tails, was that the horses tail or some other 'tale' to be told.

Israel who believed, there Redster. dey were de elect sealed in their foreheads. the faithful.
but you said they were never promised any of that.

didn't ya know there were some who believed?
stop trying to trip me up....you have no idea what you're even looking at in those texts.
it's boring.
goodnight.

 

[BradC]

Israel who believed, there BradC. dey were de elect sealed in their foreheads. the faithful.
but you said they were never promised any of that.

didn't ya know there were some who believed?
stop trying to trip me up....you have no idea what you're even looking at in those texts.
it's boring.
goodnight.

You reveal more of who you are and what you believe every day and the only tripping taking place is in your own mind and over your own tongue and the words that come from your own mouth and understanding.

 

[SarahM777]

I'm not sure who was doing the math earlier in reference to the 200 million army but your figures are quite off.

The point about a 200 million man army marching 10 across does not take 14,000 miles with 3 feet of space for each man.
20 million X 3 = 60 million, 60 million / 5280 = 11,363 miles

You were close on that one, but the other figure is where your math gets disastrous.

1000 square miles is 5280 feet X 5280 feet X 1000 = 27,878,400,000 ft; for an army of 200 million that give 139 feet of space per person! or 10 feet by 14 feet per person.

With 5000 square miles each person would have 700 square feet of space, or 26 feet by 26 feet per person.

So to take the figures literally is not impossible. Admittedly the density gets to a level beyond even the most populated places on earth, but let's see the numbers for what they are. It is entirely possible for there to be a 200 million person army within the borders of Israel or Megiddo.

Not sure what happened on the figures,you are correct on that BUT what you haven't factored in there is the EQUIPMENT and supply lines needed to go from point A to point B. Factor in trucks to supply,food,water and ammo and yes you would have a convoy of over 14,000 miles long. You still the logistical problem of getting them there over MULTIPLE MOUNTAIN ranges and DESERTS,in which food and water is VERY SCARCE. How do you logistically get them from point A to B and still supply all those men with FOOD AND WATER and get them over some of the highest mountain ranges in the world?