The Israel of God
- Thread starter zone
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Here at Christmas time it is abundantly clear that Jesus was born to be King. The gospel of Matthew starts out with Jesus' kingly geneology, the King is acknowledged by wise men from the East and given royal gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. Herod, the political ruling king tries to kill this one born King. But it is clear that Christ's kingdom was misunderstood and rejected. Christ definitely came proclaiming the kingdom of heaven and of God. Is this a physical kingdom? Was God's purpose all along not a physical and spiritual kingdom on earth? Or was Jesus just showing the greater truth, that while the Jews needed a national King, they needed a spiritual King more. But did Jesus really not want to be the Messiah, fulfilling all the physical and spiritual promises of the Coming King?
Luke 17 "The kingdom of God is in your midst." Jesus is not saying that the Pharisees were part of the kingdom of God, but they could be if they would acknowledge it. But Jesus proclaims here the kingdom of God, He seems to juxtapose a spiritual kingdom with a physical one. Of course all authority is in Jesus' hands ultimately, and the Great Commission is a Kingly Commisision. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. And He has authority to give eternal life.
But He very clearly fulfills the prophecy of Zech. 9:9 riding in on a donkey, the promised King who
10I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim And the horse from Jerusalem; And the bow of war will be cut off. And He will speak peace to the nations; And His dominion will be from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth.
So there will be a time of peace among the nations to the ends of the earth. This is in connection with this coming King. Is this what we see? Or is this yet to be fulfilled? A time of peace after the King has conquered.
But the writer of Hebrews sees more: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Wait a minute, doesn't Jesus have all authority, all power, all things are committed to Him, everything is in His hands? What is this already, not yet theology? We see that not yet all things are put under Him. So of course Jesus has it all, the power is there, the control is there, but there is still an ultimate reality where not just invisibly does Jesus have all things, but visibly all things will be put under Him. So here's evidence from the epistles, the much loved epistle that "seems" to spiritualize so much, but actually doesn't.
And what about Matt. 25? How clear is it?
31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Is this really just a spiritual kingdom? I agree there are spiritual realities and eternal spiritual consequences and the judgment seems to be based on works, not by faith. But this is Jesus proclaiming His kingdom. There is definitely a physical dynamic to this judgment. 7"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You [something] to drink? 38And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, [even] the least [of them], you did it to Me.'
So here we have Jesus after having proclaimed His second coming, now describes Himself as ruling the nations, a spiritual rulership? Absolutely, but clearly a physical rulership as well.
And of course, it seems preposterous that Jesus would lie to the disciples earnest question as to when He would restore the nation of Israel in Acts 1. Don't you think that after seeing Him being raised they could have accepted the words of Jesus if He said, "I came not to be a physical King, but a spiritual One, have I been so long with you and you do not yet understand this?" But instead: 7He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
What is this demonic talk of times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority? Good thing these are the words of Jesus.
Luke 17 "The kingdom of God is in your midst." Jesus is not saying that the Pharisees were part of the kingdom of God, but they could be if they would acknowledge it. But Jesus proclaims here the kingdom of God, He seems to juxtapose a spiritual kingdom with a physical one. Of course all authority is in Jesus' hands ultimately, and the Great Commission is a Kingly Commisision. 2 For you granted him authority over all people that he might give eternal life to all those you have given him. And He has authority to give eternal life.
But He very clearly fulfills the prophecy of Zech. 9:9 riding in on a donkey, the promised King who
10I will cut off the chariot from Ephraim And the horse from Jerusalem; And the bow of war will be cut off. And He will speak peace to the nations; And His dominion will be from sea to sea, And from the River to the ends of the earth.
So there will be a time of peace among the nations to the ends of the earth. This is in connection with this coming King. Is this what we see? Or is this yet to be fulfilled? A time of peace after the King has conquered.
But the writer of Hebrews sees more: 8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
Wait a minute, doesn't Jesus have all authority, all power, all things are committed to Him, everything is in His hands? What is this already, not yet theology? We see that not yet all things are put under Him. So of course Jesus has it all, the power is there, the control is there, but there is still an ultimate reality where not just invisibly does Jesus have all things, but visibly all things will be put under Him. So here's evidence from the epistles, the much loved epistle that "seems" to spiritualize so much, but actually doesn't.
And what about Matt. 25? How clear is it?
31"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
Is this really just a spiritual kingdom? I agree there are spiritual realities and eternal spiritual consequences and the judgment seems to be based on works, not by faith. But this is Jesus proclaiming His kingdom. There is definitely a physical dynamic to this judgment. 7"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You [something] to drink? 38And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You? 39When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, [even] the least [of them], you did it to Me.'
So here we have Jesus after having proclaimed His second coming, now describes Himself as ruling the nations, a spiritual rulership? Absolutely, but clearly a physical rulership as well.
And of course, it seems preposterous that Jesus would lie to the disciples earnest question as to when He would restore the nation of Israel in Acts 1. Don't you think that after seeing Him being raised they could have accepted the words of Jesus if He said, "I came not to be a physical King, but a spiritual One, have I been so long with you and you do not yet understand this?" But instead: 7He said to them, "It is not for you to know times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority; 8but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
What is this demonic talk of times or epochs which the Father has fixed by His own authority? Good thing these are the words of Jesus.
1) "Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, [a careful Bible student] finds that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny--all is contrast." - C.I. Scofield
There absolutely is contrast: origin, Abraham versus Spirit-indwelling Pentecost; promise-land, nation, blessing vs. bride of Christ, worship-Mosaic covenent vs. "worship in spirit and in truth; principles of conduct-Mosaic Law vs. royal law of Christ, future destiny-promised spiritual and physical rulership, reign with Christ.
But there absolutely is similarity: origin-called by God; promise-all nations blessed, Jew and Gentile; worship-the Lord our God, the Lord is One, to the only Eternal Wise One be blessing; principles of conduct-"Be ye holy as I am holy, future destinty-New Jerusalem with tribes of Israel on the gates and 12 apostles foundation stones for wall
I would probably amend this to say that God has a singular purpose in forming a people of God but that this singular purpose is seen to be played out with both spiritual and physical emphases. How far do we carry the distinction? Why is New Jerusalem described as with the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles? Why would this be the description? What purpose could there be in continuing the distinction? Are we not all one in Christ and in God and in the Spirit? Yes, but for some reason God emphasizes in His eternal New Jerusalem the twin truths of 12 tribes and 12 apostles. I will maintain the distinction as God does.
There absolutely is contrast: origin, Abraham versus Spirit-indwelling Pentecost; promise-land, nation, blessing vs. bride of Christ, worship-Mosaic covenent vs. "worship in spirit and in truth; principles of conduct-Mosaic Law vs. royal law of Christ, future destiny-promised spiritual and physical rulership, reign with Christ.
But there absolutely is similarity: origin-called by God; promise-all nations blessed, Jew and Gentile; worship-the Lord our God, the Lord is One, to the only Eternal Wise One be blessing; principles of conduct-"Be ye holy as I am holy, future destinty-New Jerusalem with tribes of Israel on the gates and 12 apostles foundation stones for wall
I would probably amend this to say that God has a singular purpose in forming a people of God but that this singular purpose is seen to be played out with both spiritual and physical emphases. How far do we carry the distinction? Why is New Jerusalem described as with the 12 tribes of Israel and the 12 apostles? Why would this be the description? What purpose could there be in continuing the distinction? Are we not all one in Christ and in God and in the Spirit? Yes, but for some reason God emphasizes in His eternal New Jerusalem the twin truths of 12 tribes and 12 apostles. I will maintain the distinction as God does.
take the veil away from your face.
sit up straight in your chair.
get a pen and paper.
first resurrection is Christ's Resurrection = new birth and the soul's presence with the Lord upon the first death, the death of the body.
the Resurrection - all, great and small at the GWT, believers not condemned, unbelievers condemned
second death - lake of fire.
no 1,000 years. it's a symbolic figure used to represent completion.
but you've been shown this a thousand times
as for chapter 19, i know exactly what it says. you don't.
so what's new? nothing.
translation:
We Dispensationalists always keep Israel and the Church separate, insisting God has two people with two distinct purposes He is pursuing, they retaining the distinctions throughout eternity....but we know that is heresy so we don't address that part, instead try to avoid having to read the Book Of Revelation ourselves....we just obssess about those who do understand it, and accuse them of not taking things literally
.....thereby we Dispensationalists are always mixing light with darkness.wake up man.
embarrassing for you after years of being shown.
you gonna exegete the passages?
explain the Book of Revelation, Hizikyah.
(it might be wise to realize you've spent your time determining which pagan words in your vocabulary must needs be discarded; where the obelisks are in the world, and so on - which is fine...but have been doing so while others have studied other things - namely the Book of symbolic images you clearly aren't familiar with).
by who?
unbelievers and zealots.
by people who wanted a physical worldly dominion.
and so it is today.
we have people claiming the Kingdom was Postponed. like...seriously?
Colossians 1:13
For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of the Son he loves
paul said that 2000 years ago.
was he in the Kingdom?
are you?
Last edited:
huh? LOL.
why all the unnecessary confusion?
He was born a King; rode into Jerusalem as King; was received as King (exactly as Zechariah has foretold...riding on a donkey); recognized as the King of Israel; was Raised from death and seated on "David's throne", having received ALL Authority in heaven and on earth (PEOPLE FROM ALL KINDRED TONGUES AND NATIONS serve and worship Him NOW. right NOW....(if this is not true, i never want to hear dispensationalists ever again claiming they SERVE the Lord. stop saying it if it isn't true
).The Hebrews who had a Book written to them were told 2000+ years ago about the Kingdom they were receiving.
Hebrews 12
Contrast of Sinai and Zion
18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.”
22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
The Unshaken Kingdom
25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN.” 27This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29for our God is a consuming fire.
When Jesus is King; set on Zion - in HEAVEN.
(see Psalm 2; Acts 4).
when the CHANGE CAME, it was a REAL CHANGE.
for people who complain about the spiritualizing of scripture...i would ask: is the Heavenly Zion the Hebrews were told about (New Jerusalem above is our mother).....is the Kingdom of the Dear Son - NOT REAL?
is it not a literal Heavenly Zion?
is God playing games and just using SYMBOLOGY HERE to explain something?
after having installed His King (Jesus), on His Holy Mountain (Heavenly Zion) is He now going to come AGAIN to walk around among sinners...for 1,000 years no less?
Last edited:
1/3 of people on earth claim they are Christians.
when Jesus came the First Time He was down to about 120 people.
Ephesians 2:14
For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility,
is He your peace?
did he make peace between jews and gentiles IN HIM (even though some people continue to REBUILD THE WALL HE TORE DOWN, particularly in the last 100 years?)
what was HIS PURPOSE?
Ephesians 2:15
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two,
thus making peace
but no, we decided He did NOT DO THAT, that was NOT His Purpose.
His purpose was (and i don't say you claim this, konroh...i don't know for sure what you say, ultimately)...but Dispensatioanlism says: NO - He did not PURPOSE to bring PEACE, having reconciled those who will to God, thus making PEACE WITH GOD, and secondarily peace between MEN:
Ephesians 2:15
by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace,
Ephesians 2:17
He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near.
are we really, really willing to deny what is said right here:
Colossians 1:20
and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
HOW DID HE MAKE PEACE?
by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.
does any of us DARE to say he did not do that?
if some people refuse, if some remain His enemies, they have no peace, they have no rest.
they are in danger of the Second Death - the lake of fire.
how are men broken and subdued? by the Gospel.
that's it.
then on the Day of Judgment, those who refused HIM TO BE KING OVER THEM will go away into everlasting SHAME.
who did He say this to (in a parable)?:
Luke 19
But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them--bring them here and kill them in front of me.'
JUDGMENT DAY.
eternity - the LAST ENEMY DESTROYED IS....DEATH.
Revelation 21
A New Heaven and a New Earth
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them, 4and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away." 5And He who sits on the throne said, "Behold, I am making all things new." And He said, "Write, for these words are faithful and true."
hey wait...what happened to the temporary everlasting kingdom out of this Jerusalem for a period of 1,000 years with the Temple that isn't written?
the former things are passed away?
Last edited:
JUDGMENT DAY.
read it again.
they are ALREADY separated by WHAT KIND they are before works are discussed.
B
BradC
Guest
me an da jesuits invented amil.
It's that sluggish stupor taking hold again that comes from too much leaven getting mixed into those three measures of meal in Mt 13:33. Leaven can be so destructive because it gets hidden away until it begins to ferment and rise up leavening the whole lump. That's what the leaven of false doctrine does and it begins to control the actions and decisions people make who are infected by it. Then intrinsic evil takes over to infect others through much labor with the expressed purpose to overcome others with their infectious doctrine. They also may have love (agape), but that love is filled with dissimulation (Rom 12:9).
dissimulation is anupokritos. In the verb form it means to take up another's statements in reference to what one has decided for one's self to reply, to answer, to give off a judgment, to be an actor on the stage, to impersonate anyone, play a part, to stimulate, feign, pretend and to play a hypocrite. In the noun form it means 'hypocrisy'.
Love (agape) should be without dissimulation or hypocricy, being purged of all leaven that has the power to ferment and destroy the capacity of love that God has given to every believer by grace through the Holy Spirit. For the sake of this thread, the true Israel of God (spiritually speaking) who is Spirit-filled should have a love that is purged from all hypocrisy and false doctrine and who abhors (poneros) evil that labors to spread and infect others with that leaven.
can't we find some other word to use? it gets old because people want what they can see (trees; roads; temples), and just never think through what SPIRITUAL means...is it just a mind thing? is it a holographic world of floating things?
or is it a very real and very physical existence that we who are alive have NOT YET seen?
which is better? natural or spiritual?
which is better? temporary or eternal?
which is better? perishable or imperishable?
this would have been the perfect time for peter to explain the 1,000 years as the living hope we look for. did he?
1 Peter 1
A Living Hope
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
did Peter, Apostle to Israel tell them to expect that they would obtain an inheritance in The State of Israel in the Middle East?
- The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
- who according to His great mercy
- has caused us to be born again
- to a living hope
- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
- to obtain an inheritance
- which is imperishable
- and undefiled
- and will not fade away
- reserved in heaven for you
- who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation
- ready to be revealed in the last time.
the eternal state is VERY literal, and VERY real.
i don't know anyone who denies this.
what do we know about it - already?
1 Corinthians 2
Wisdom from the Spirit of God
8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." 10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
okay. i just assumed Jesus is actually a "literal" "physical" Lord & king now.
if He isn't, what is He? where is He?
He said he was returning to the GLORY He had with the Father before the world began.
is that a REAL PLACE?
is God real?
this has no end.
why don't you read that part again?
BUT GO INTO THE CITY (Jerusalem)...and wait for THE PROMISE.....where they would RECEIVE Power From on High.
who sends Power and Authority from On High unless it is a King sending out AMBASSADORS?
John said THIS 2000 years ago...and you know what? i bet THOSE Christians believed it.
i don't know why we don't:
Revelation 1
John Greets the Seven Churches
5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
who rules over kings of the earth except a KING of kings?
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood-- 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father-- to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.
can't we find some other word to use? it gets old because people want what they can see (trees; roads; temples), and just never think through what SPIRITUAL means...is it just a mind thing? is it a holographic world of floating things?
or is it a very real and very physical existence that we who are alive have NOT YET seen?
which is better? natural or spiritual?
which is better? temporary or eternal?
which is better? perishable or imperishable?
this would have been the perfect time for peter to explain the 1,000 years as the living hope we look for. did he?
1 Peter 1
A Living Hope
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
did Peter, Apostle to Israel tell them to expect that they would obtain an inheritance in The State of Israel in the Middle East?
- The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
- who according to His great mercy
- has caused us to be born again
- to a living hope
- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
- to obtain an inheritance
- which is imperishable
- and undefiled
- and will not fade away
- reserved in heaven for you
- who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation
- ready to be revealed in the last time.
the eternal state is VERY literal, and VERY real.
i don't know anyone who denies this.
what do we know about it - already?
1 Corinthians 2
Wisdom from the Spirit of God
8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." 10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
okay. i just assumed Jesus is actually a "literal" "physical" Lord & king now.
if He isn't, what is He? where is He?
He said he was returning to the GLORY He had with the Father before the world began.
is that a REAL PLACE?
is God real?
this has no end.
why don't you read that part again?
BUT GO INTO THE CITY (Jerusalem)...and wait for THE PROMISE.....where they would RECEIVE Power From on High.
who sends Power and Authority from On High unless it is a King sending out AMBASSADORS?
John said THIS 2000 years ago...and you know what? i bet THOSE Christians believed it.
i don't know why we don't:
Revelation 1
John Greets the Seven Churches
5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
who rules over kings of the earth except a KING of kings?
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood-- 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father-- to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to zone again.
Hebrews 12
Contrast of Sinai and Zion
18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.”
22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
The Unshaken Kingdom
25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN.” 27This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29for our God is a consuming fire.
...
what's this about, if Jesus is coming to earth again to reign from this Jerusalem?:
For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth (Moses), much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven (The LORD!).
what's He warning about?
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
DON'T GO BACK TO PHYSICAL JERUSALEM and the Temple system...it's going to be judged. and it was.
well, what were they left with, if not THAT PROMISE? (this Jersusalem paul said was in BONDAGE, that Covenant about to be "cast out")
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
they are being told there was A TRANSFER....to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
that's what this is all about - salvation! to where? "Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem."
the very same thing that was said here:
Galatians 4:25
Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
so if they will never again leave it, WHO will be supposedly officiating in this 1,000 year Mystery flesh/saints mix?
are there going to ANIMAL SACRIFICES in the Heavenly Zion?
*shiver*
Contrast of Sinai and Zion
18For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind, 19and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them. 20For they could not bear the command, “IF EVEN A BEAST TOUCHES THE MOUNTAIN, IT WILL BE STONED.” 21And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, “I AM FULL OF FEAR and trembling.”
22But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.
The Unshaken Kingdom
25See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven. 26And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, “YET ONCE MORE I WILL SHAKE NOT ONLY THE EARTH, BUT ALSO THE HEAVEN.” 27This expression, “Yet once more,” denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain. 28Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29for our God is a consuming fire.
...
what's this about, if Jesus is coming to earth again to reign from this Jerusalem?:
For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth (Moses), much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven (The LORD!).
what's He warning about?
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
DON'T GO BACK TO PHYSICAL JERUSALEM and the Temple system...it's going to be judged. and it was.
well, what were they left with, if not THAT PROMISE? (this Jersusalem paul said was in BONDAGE, that Covenant about to be "cast out")
But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
they are being told there was A TRANSFER....to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
that's what this is all about - salvation! to where? "Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem."
the very same thing that was said here:
Galatians 4:25
Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children.
Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Revelation 3:12
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.
so if they will never again leave it, WHO will be supposedly officiating in this 1,000 year Mystery flesh/saints mix?
are there going to ANIMAL SACRIFICES in the Heavenly Zion?
*shiver*
2
2Thewaters
Guest
So if they dont sell enough candy on october 30, and wallmart decides to name it praise God day and christians should buy candy for each other, you would fall for that too?
God would be displeased.
This would be making wall-mart God.
a God is the one you listen too
impotent satan was eves God so the real God removed his holy spirit from eve the moment she chose impotent satan as God
her robe of light left her
holy spirit gone from her
Adam saw her naked when she gave him the apple.
first pornography
and he lost his robe of light also
You keep christmas this your yo will loose your robe of light too.
You cant just make up a relligous holiday.
that is called fanatacism, and all who follow this error are rejecting the Bible.
its that simple
Eve had an apple
you have christmas presents, it is a bit harder to resist but it is still error.
God would be displeased.
This would be making wall-mart God.
a God is the one you listen too
impotent satan was eves God so the real God removed his holy spirit from eve the moment she chose impotent satan as God
her robe of light left her
holy spirit gone from her
Adam saw her naked when she gave him the apple.
first pornography
and he lost his robe of light also
You keep christmas this your yo will loose your robe of light too.
You cant just make up a relligous holiday.
that is called fanatacism, and all who follow this error are rejecting the Bible.
its that simple
Eve had an apple
you have christmas presents, it is a bit harder to resist but it is still error.
The Israel of God
(Galatians 6:16)
by Michael Marlowe, Dec. 2004.
14 ἐμοὶ δὲ μὴ γένοιτο καυχᾶσθαι εἰ μὴ ἐν τῷ σταυρῷ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, δι᾽ οὗ ἐμοὶ κόσμος ἐσταύρωται κἀγὼ κόσμῳ. 15 οὔτε γὰρ περιτομή τί ἐστιν οὔτε ἀκροβυστία, ἀλλὰ καινὴ κτίσις. 16 καὶ ὅσοι τῷ κανόνι τούτῳ στοιχήσουσιν, εἰρήνη ἐπ᾽ αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔλεος, καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ.
14 But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
The Israel of God (Galatians 6:16)
...
In any case, it seems clear that in this verse Paul cannot be pronouncing a benediction upon persons who are not included in the phrase "as many as shall walk by this rule" (the rule of boasting only in the cross).
The entire argument of the epistle prevents any idea that here in 6:16 he would give a blessing to those who are not included in this group.
The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with Dispensationalism.
...
do we really want to be in conflict with what Paul said?
...
Dispensationalists are interested in maintaining a sharp distinction between "Israel" and "the Church" across a whole range of theological matters pertaining to prophecy, ecclesiology, and soteriology.
...
soteriology means how people are saved.
do we really want to be in conflict with what the bible says about how people are saved?
how they become the children/people of God?
...
They [Dispensationalists] are not comfortable with the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is always carefully distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture.
...
do we really, seriously, want to be in contention with what the bible says about WHO is the people of God by adoption as sons? how they are saved; in conflict with what Paul's blessing was; are we sure?
do we really want to be holding to, and worse, teaching in conflict with; contention against; contrary to what PAUL actually said; and what the church had always understood until the Dispensationalist scheme came around.....because WE THINK it undermines our Dispensationalist interpretation?
which is BASED ON THIS:
"Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, [a careful Bible student ] finds that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny--all is contrast."
- C.I. Scofield; Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (New York, Loizeaux Brothers, 1888)
the "basic premise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity."
- Charles Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism Today (Chicago, 1965)
those two statements above are the core of Dispensationalism.
in them is the exact opposite of what Jesus came to do and DID do.
~
so what is the alternative/remedy to the dispensational web - which is contrary to the Gospel?
WHY I LEFT SCOFIELDISM
by
William E.Cox
Why I left Scofieldism
(Galatians 6:16)
by Michael Marlowe, Dec. 2004.
14 ἐμοὶ δὲ μὴ γένοιτο καυχᾶσθαι εἰ μὴ ἐν τῷ σταυρῷ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ, δι᾽ οὗ ἐμοὶ κόσμος ἐσταύρωται κἀγὼ κόσμῳ. 15 οὔτε γὰρ περιτομή τί ἐστιν οὔτε ἀκροβυστία, ἀλλὰ καινὴ κτίσις. 16 καὶ ὅσοι τῷ κανόνι τούτῳ στοιχήσουσιν, εἰρήνη ἐπ᾽ αὐτοὺς καὶ ἔλεος, καὶ ἐπὶ τὸν Ἰσραὴλ τοῦ θεοῦ.
14 But far be it from me to boast, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, through which the world hath been crucified unto me, and I unto the world. 15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation. 16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.
The Israel of God (Galatians 6:16)
...
In any case, it seems clear that in this verse Paul cannot be pronouncing a benediction upon persons who are not included in the phrase "as many as shall walk by this rule" (the rule of boasting only in the cross).
The entire argument of the epistle prevents any idea that here in 6:16 he would give a blessing to those who are not included in this group.
The phrase has become controversial because the traditional interpretation conflicts with principles of interpretation associated with Dispensationalism.
...
do we really want to be in conflict with what Paul said?
...
Dispensationalists are interested in maintaining a sharp distinction between "Israel" and "the Church" across a whole range of theological matters pertaining to prophecy, ecclesiology, and soteriology.
...
soteriology means how people are saved.
do we really want to be in conflict with what the bible says about how people are saved?
how they become the children/people of God?
...
They [Dispensationalists] are not comfortable with the idea that here Paul is using the phrase "Israel of God" in a sense that includes Gentiles, because this undermines their contention that "the Church" is always carefully distinguished from "Israel" in Scripture.
...
do we really, seriously, want to be in contention with what the bible says about WHO is the people of God by adoption as sons? how they are saved; in conflict with what Paul's blessing was; are we sure?
do we really want to be holding to, and worse, teaching in conflict with; contention against; contrary to what PAUL actually said; and what the church had always understood until the Dispensationalist scheme came around.....because WE THINK it undermines our Dispensationalist interpretation?
which is BASED ON THIS:
"Comparing, then, what is said in Scripture concerning Israel and the Church, [a careful Bible student ] finds that in origin, calling, promise, worship, principles of conduct, and future destiny--all is contrast."
- C.I. Scofield; Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (New York, Loizeaux Brothers, 1888)
the "basic premise of Dispensationalism is two purposes of God expressed in the formation of two peoples who maintain their distinction throughout eternity."
- Charles Ryrie in his book Dispensationalism Today (Chicago, 1965)
those two statements above are the core of Dispensationalism.
in them is the exact opposite of what Jesus came to do and DID do.
~
so what is the alternative/remedy to the dispensational web - which is contrary to the Gospel?
WHY I LEFT SCOFIELDISM
by
William E.Cox
Why I left Scofieldism
P
plussizedstickbug
Guest
Zone
You do a good job expounding the scriptures.
I appreciate the scriptures expounded upon instead of the thought translations from within mans own take on them and of them.
There is nothing as clearer or as powerful as those scriptures alone.
You do well to refer to them and allow them to stand as they are the authority.
Seeing them all laid out and brought back in where they were removed from there place is wonderful to see, because it Glorifies Christ.
Glorifies Christ not man or ourselves except it be in Christ and His Works.
This really I love and can not resist but love it.
All that you lay out in scripture is a blessing unto us.
Glad there are those out there like you and yours who do this.
There is comfort, assurance and peace in that as well as Great Joy.
I love to see them and hear them and there reflections upon all the Work Christ has done.
It sparks admiration of Christ higher and higher every time I see or hear them, I admire Him, I just can not resist the admiration of Him in The Word of God.
Thanks for you work and for others that work with you for the same One as well, you all are a big help unto others like me.
You do a good job expounding the scriptures.
I appreciate the scriptures expounded upon instead of the thought translations from within mans own take on them and of them.
There is nothing as clearer or as powerful as those scriptures alone.
You do well to refer to them and allow them to stand as they are the authority.
Seeing them all laid out and brought back in where they were removed from there place is wonderful to see, because it Glorifies Christ.
Glorifies Christ not man or ourselves except it be in Christ and His Works.
This really I love and can not resist but love it.
All that you lay out in scripture is a blessing unto us.
Glad there are those out there like you and yours who do this.
There is comfort, assurance and peace in that as well as Great Joy.
I love to see them and hear them and there reflections upon all the Work Christ has done.
It sparks admiration of Christ higher and higher every time I see or hear them, I admire Him, I just can not resist the admiration of Him in The Word of God.
Thanks for you work and for others that work with you for the same One as well, you all are a big help unto others like me.
The strong man = Jesus = Living word - The strong man - We rise up against the strong man and stand against him so that Satan cannot bind us and make our house desolate (ourselves) so that he cannot destroy us.
The prince of this world must not have been cast out (he is the god of this world (2 Cor. 4:4). And if he is bound now - what do we need the armor of God for -(Eph. 6:12)? Why are we told to not be ignorant of Satan's devices so he will not take advantage of us (2 Cor. 2:11)? And how is he walking about as a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8)? If God binds something and in chains - believe me it will be bound; just as he shut the doors to the ark where no one could enter after Noah and his family.
Yes, he triumphed over them - He proclaimed the fact that they thought they killed him (1 Peter 3:19) but his Father raised him up - now instead of dealing with "one" Christ - Christ now dwells in each born again believer (Col. 1:26,27) - and his (Satan's) end is assured. Had they known this they (the princes of this world) would not have crucified the Lord of glory (1 Cor. 2:8).
B
BradC
Guest
can't we find some other word to use? it gets old because people want what they can see (trees; roads; temples), and just never think through what SPIRITUAL means...is it just a mind thing? is it a holographic world of floating things?
or is it a very real and very physical existence that we who are alive have NOT YET seen?
which is better? natural or spiritual?
which is better? temporary or eternal?
which is better? perishable or imperishable?
this would have been the perfect time for peter to explain the 1,000 years as the living hope we look for. did he?
1 Peter 1
A Living Hope
3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
did Peter, Apostle to Israel tell them to expect that they would obtain an inheritance in The State of Israel in the Middle East?
- The Father of our Lord Jesus Christ
- who according to His great mercy
- has caused us to be born again
- to a living hope
- through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead
- to obtain an inheritance
- which is imperishable
- and undefiled
- and will not fade away
- reserved in heaven for you
- who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation
- ready to be revealed in the last time.
the eternal state is VERY literal, and VERY real.
i don't know anyone who denies this.
what do we know about it - already?
1 Corinthians 2
Wisdom from the Spirit of God
8the wisdom which none of the rulers of this age has understood; for if they had understood it they would not have crucified the Lord of glory; 9but just as it is written, "THINGS WHICH EYE HAS NOT SEEN AND EAR HAS NOT HEARD, AND which HAVE NOT ENTERED THE HEART OF MAN, ALL THAT GOD HAS PREPARED FOR THOSE WHO LOVE HIM." 10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.
okay. i just assumed Jesus is actually a "literal" "physical" Lord & king now.
if He isn't, what is He? where is He?
He said he was returning to the GLORY He had with the Father before the world began.
is that a REAL PLACE?
is God real?
this has no end.
why don't you read that part again?
BUT GO INTO THE CITY (Jerusalem)...and wait for THE PROMISE.....where they would RECEIVE Power From on High.
who sends Power and Authority from On High unless it is a King sending out AMBASSADORS?
John said THIS 2000 years ago...and you know what? i bet THOSE Christians believed it.
i don't know why we don't:
Revelation 1
John Greets the Seven Churches
5and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.
who rules over kings of the earth except a KING of kings?
To Him who loves us and released us from our sins by His blood-- 6 and He has made us to be a kingdom, priests to His God and Father-- to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever.
The believer is an ambassador for Christ, who represent the death, burial and resurrection of our ascended Lord, who was raised for our justification. The message of the ambassador involves a word and ministry of reconciliation through the cross because all sin was paid for and judged by the Son, the mediator between God and man. That is the ambassador's message and gospel. Be reconciled to God the Father through the Son. The ambassador is not occupied with establishing a kingdom but only the hope of one to come and the inheritance of the believer. There is no reigning theocratic kingdom ruling from heaven on the earth having dominion over nations through the church. It is not happening and we do not lift up a kingdom but we lift up the Son of man on the cross to get sinners to gaze upon him that all men might be drawn to it. We do not draw anyone to a kingdom but we draw them to the cross through the help of the Holy Spirit so that they can receive grace and be hid in Christ and have the Holy Spirit indwell them.
The Holy Spirit in man reveals Jesus Christ and him crucified and when any man believes he is translated from the power of darkness (and the bondage associated with it) into the kingdom of God's dear Son (light, love and liberty). This verse in Col 1:13 and others that have been mentioned do not point to a tangible kingdom that is confirmed with signs that can be looked upon, or a designated throne or one who sits on that throne ruling over the nations that can be observed with reverence and awe. The kingdom of God's dear Son that believers have been translated into is within them through the Holy Spirit and has dominion over the power of darkness that held them in bondage through unbelief. The kingdom of the Son that is among them is represented not by the omniscience of God but according to the assembly of those who have the kingdom within. The principle is that two believers gathered together in the name of Christ are better than one, a three fold cord can not be easily broken, five with chase a hundred and a hundred with send ten thousand of the enemy to flight.