The last paragraph indicates that the crucial disagreement with Jesus and Paul was regarding their kerygmatic claim that Jesus is Messiah who would (J)/did (P) resurrect, whereas the main disagreement on CC seems to be whether MFW or TULIP best accords with the Gospel, a doctrinal dispute that is didachaic (downstream of saving faith).
The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation
- Thread starter GWH
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
To clarify what was just posted, the fifth point of the elaborated kerygma is: 5. God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
Although perfection is not achieved in this life, the necessity of learning the didache in order to strive for perfection indicates the need for perseverance or to keep on learning and growing spiritually until we die physically (PHP 3:12-14). Thus, although learning any specific part of the didache is not GRFS, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (MT 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (MT 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded and Jesus implied (mentioned previously). Perseverance is didachaic fruit/faithfulness (GL 5:22) following (EPH 2:8-10) and building on kerygmatic faith (1CR 3:10-15).
IOW, the need for perseverance is part of the simple and essential kerygma, but the debate regarding whether/why it is possible not to persevere gets complicated and is part of the secondary doctrines to be learned beyond the Gospel. Is it possible for a Christian to repudiate his/her saving faith and become apostate or again bound for hell?
Before seeking to answer this question, we should remember that although perseverance is an implicit part of the creed, understanding the details of this or any doctrine is not necessary in order to remain saved, because the kerygma is simple enough for a young soul to understand (cf. MT 18:3), and didachaic details can become rather complicated and controversial.
Thus, a Christian needs to be humble or Spirit-filled before tackling such issues, keeping in mind that whichever position a Christian takes on any secondary doctrine, he/she should fellowship with those having a different interpretation who affirm the kerygma both verbally and by typically manifesting divine love.
Although perfection is not achieved in this life, the necessity of learning the didache in order to strive for perfection indicates the need for perseverance or to keep on learning and growing spiritually until we die physically (PHP 3:12-14). Thus, although learning any specific part of the didache is not GRFS, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (MT 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (MT 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded and Jesus implied (mentioned previously). Perseverance is didachaic fruit/faithfulness (GL 5:22) following (EPH 2:8-10) and building on kerygmatic faith (1CR 3:10-15).
IOW, the need for perseverance is part of the simple and essential kerygma, but the debate regarding whether/why it is possible not to persevere gets complicated and is part of the secondary doctrines to be learned beyond the Gospel. Is it possible for a Christian to repudiate his/her saving faith and become apostate or again bound for hell?
Before seeking to answer this question, we should remember that although perseverance is an implicit part of the creed, understanding the details of this or any doctrine is not necessary in order to remain saved, because the kerygma is simple enough for a young soul to understand (cf. MT 18:3), and didachaic details can become rather complicated and controversial.
Thus, a Christian needs to be humble or Spirit-filled before tackling such issues, keeping in mind that whichever position a Christian takes on any secondary doctrine, he/she should fellowship with those having a different interpretation who affirm the kerygma both verbally and by typically manifesting divine love.
Systematic study of the doctrine of salvation yields connections such as the following:
God saves sinners who repent (1Tim. 2:3-4, Matt. 4:17). Repentance means accepting Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Acts 16:30-31, Col. 2:6). God enables all sinners to repent, seek salvation and find the LJC (1Tim. 2:3-5, Heb. 11:6). God's enabling is resistible so souls may choose instead to serve Satan (Matt. 13:14-15, John 8:42-44). God's enabling of volition (Deut. 30:19) may be called seeking grace (Eph. 2:8). Souls who choose to reject God/Christ are justly condemned (Rom. 1:20, 2:5-11). Accepting God's grace by faith is not a meritorious work (Rom. 3:21-28, Eph. 2:8-9). Even loving works motivated by God's HS manifest faith rather than merit (Eph. 2:10), because there is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (John 6:29, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes. The only contradiction comes from those who are spiritually blind (Matt. 13:15, 2Cor. 4:4, John 9:41).
God saves sinners who repent (1Tim. 2:3-4, Matt. 4:17). Repentance means accepting Jesus as Messiah and Lord (Acts 16:30-31, Col. 2:6). God enables all sinners to repent, seek salvation and find the LJC (1Tim. 2:3-5, Heb. 11:6). God's enabling is resistible so souls may choose instead to serve Satan (Matt. 13:14-15, John 8:42-44). God's enabling of volition (Deut. 30:19) may be called seeking grace (Eph. 2:8). Souls who choose to reject God/Christ are justly condemned (Rom. 1:20, 2:5-11). Accepting God's grace by faith is not a meritorious work (Rom. 3:21-28, Eph. 2:8-9). Even loving works motivated by God's HS manifest faith rather than merit (Eph. 2:10), because there is no qualitative difference between faith that accepts God’s saving grace at conversion and faith that accepts God’s working grace while walking/living (John 6:29, 2Cor. 5:7, Rom. 1:17), but only a quantitative difference as each additional moment passes. The only contradiction comes from those who are spiritually blind (Matt. 13:15, 2Cor. 4:4, John 9:41).
In the study of Ephesians, it was pointed out that Eph. 2:10 "walk" can be translated as "walking with God",
which is an apt (KJV) way of indicating working grace that enables saved sinners
(those who exercised seeking grace to choose saving grace) to cooperate with the HS
by reflecting divine love variously (Rom. 5:5-8, Gal. 5:22-23, Rom. 12:6-8, 1Cor. 12:4-11).
which is an apt (KJV) way of indicating working grace that enables saved sinners
(those who exercised seeking grace to choose saving grace) to cooperate with the HS
by reflecting divine love variously (Rom. 5:5-8, Gal. 5:22-23, Rom. 12:6-8, 1Cor. 12:4-11).
The SBS of election on the Hermeneutics thread yielded the following insight regarding GRFS:
Human nature was created good but not perfect, and Jesus had a human nature that was perfected
during his earthly life (Hebrews 5:8-9), which moral perfection should be every Christian’s goal (Philippians 3:12-15).
All humans sin, but every sinner has the opportunity to repent/have saving faith. (Romans 1:20, 2:7, 3:21-22, 4:16-17, 5:8-19)
Human nature was created good but not perfect, and Jesus had a human nature that was perfected
during his earthly life (Hebrews 5:8-9), which moral perfection should be every Christian’s goal (Philippians 3:12-15).
All humans sin, but every sinner has the opportunity to repent/have saving faith. (Romans 1:20, 2:7, 3:21-22, 4:16-17, 5:8-19)
This thread introduced the often-ignored question, “What is GRFS for those who have never heard of Jesus?”, and in the HOB thread it was noted that this cohort included everyone living B.C. and millions of people who lived A.D. until the invention of the printing press and world-wide travel after 1500 made it possible for more souls to LGW.
Even though some Scriptures such as Romans 1:20 & 2:14-15 indicate it is possible for sinners to perceive the existence of God and His moral nature/will via what is called general revelation, to seek salvation, find faith and thereby be spiritually like Abraham (Romans 4:11b-18), knowledge of the HOB reveals that relatively few folks were not polytheists and even in modern times I-dolatry is prevalent, so the next question becomes. "Does God love everyone in the world, so His POS saves the most people possible?"
What is your answer?
Even though some Scriptures such as Romans 1:20 & 2:14-15 indicate it is possible for sinners to perceive the existence of God and His moral nature/will via what is called general revelation, to seek salvation, find faith and thereby be spiritually like Abraham (Romans 4:11b-18), knowledge of the HOB reveals that relatively few folks were not polytheists and even in modern times I-dolatry is prevalent, so the next question becomes. "Does God love everyone in the world, so His POS saves the most people possible?"
What is your answer?
This thread introduced the often-ignored question, “What is GRFS for those who have never heard of Jesus?”
John 16~~5“But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, grief has filled your heart. 7 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9 regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me;
You are assuming that the Holy Spirit didn't do His Job with these people.
This question is not ignored. What is ignored is........
John 16~~5“But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, grief has filled your heart. 7 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9 regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me;
You are assuming that the Holy Spirit didn't do His Job with these people.
John 16~~5“But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ‘Where are You going?’ 6 But because I have said these things to you, grief has filled your heart. 7 But I tell you the truth: it is to your advantage that I am leaving; for if I do not leave, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. 8 And He, when He comes, will convict the world regarding sin, and righteousness, and judgment: 9 regarding sin, because they do not believe in Me;
You are assuming that the Holy Spirit didn't do His Job with these people.
And then what about the next question?:
"Does God love everyone in the world, so His POS saves the most people possible?"
You state what I assume {{Even though some Scriptures such as Romans 1:20 & 2:14-15 indicate it is possible for sinners to perceive the existence of God and His moral nature/will via what is called general revelation, to seek salvation, find faith and thereby be spiritually like Abraham (Romans 4:11b-18), knowledge of the HOB reveals that relatively few folks were not polytheists and even in modern times I-dolatry is prevalent}} but not what YOU assume, so please explain that.
And then what about the next question?:
"Does God love everyone in the world, so His POS saves the most people possible?"
And then what about the next question?:
"Does God love everyone in the world, so His POS saves the most people possible?"
It might be tempting to think that God could save more people by proving His existence to people,
but people only exist when they have MFW. God could not prove His power exists without abrogating their humanity.
If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine.
If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons. Thus, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken. Apparently God performs miracles only as necessary to accomplish His plan of salvation.
It seems logical to assume that the all-loving God would create the best possible world or one in which the greatest percentage of persons may attain ultimate joy, and this logical assumption is also biblical (1Tim. 2:3-4, 2Pet. 3:9). God may have created all possible kinds of worlds simultaneously: the world of dead matter, the world of living plants, the world of intelligent animals, and the world of morally accountable souls/humans. God’s world/way is best.