The Kerygma - God's Requirement for Salvation

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Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
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Clearly there are different meanings and definitions and contexts nfor the word death. If we never died we would not need to be resurrected. I don't think we should ever say that Jesus never died for us. PS I'm at work so I will not be able to respond for a while
I don't think we should ever say that Jesus never died for us.

Sister I never have even came close to suggesting this we should wait until you have free time . At your availability sister . Bit if your gathering that im
In any way shape or form suggesting Jesus didn’t die for us we’ve got a disconnect 😍

God loves you and may your work be fulfilling and rewarding !!
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,177
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I'm not saying a person who is saved will not repent. I believe he will. But I believe he does so in response to God's grace and not in order to receive God's grace.
yeah does “ receiving Gods grace “ change the things he said and requirements for them to do and not do is what I’m asking brother ?

Gods grace has appeared to every man , it’s the gospel he sent to us all offering salvstion

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; ( that’s what Jesus words in the gospel do if we start to listen to him )

looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.

And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14, 16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

isnt his word part of the essential equation brother ? Hasnt it always been since Eden ?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Not Moses doctrine Jesus doctrine of grace and truth

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,177
5,727
113
I'm not saying a person who is saved will not repent. I believe he will. But I believe he does so in response to God's grace and not in order to receive God's grace.
Yea I dont think anyone’s arguing for trying to earn Gods grace. More tbat gods grace that saves is the gospel
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
6,647
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yeah does “ receiving Gods grace “ change the things he said and requirements for them to do and not do is what I’m asking brother ?

Gods grace has appeared to every man , it’s the gospel he sent to us all offering salvstion

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,

teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; ( that’s what Jesus words in the gospel do if we start to listen to him )

looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and Saviour Jesus Christ; who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

These things speak, and exhort, and rebuke with all authority. Let no man despise thee.”
‭‭Titus‬ ‭2:11-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬


“For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth.

And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:14, 16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

isnt his word part of the essential equation brother ? Hasnt it always been since Eden ?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:31-32‬ ‭KJV‬

“Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God.

He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.”
‭‭2 John‬ ‭1:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Not Moses doctrine Jesus doctrine of grace and truth

For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.”
I don't understand what you aren't understanding. I believe God initiates salvation by grace. I believe the responses of men are the result of that grace.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,334
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I don't think we should ever say that Jesus never died for us.

Sister I never have even came close to suggesting this we should wait until you have free time . At your availability sister . Bit if your gathering that im
In any way shape or form suggesting Jesus didn’t die for us we’ve got a disconnect 😍

God loves you and may your work be fulfilling and rewarding !!
It just strikes me as very odd that we have to establish that death actually exists because it does seem you are arguing against the fact that we do die once. I am at work but I am on my brunch break now after having been up since just before 7 and only had coffee so far... But that is normal for me... anyway... God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or he would die and death was the consequence of his disobedience for all and it is the second death Christians need not fear and do in fact escape from by grace through faith and the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ. Psalm 116 verse 15 says precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his faithful servants.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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If you read the post again, the only other requirement is the grace of God. All that comes after this is simply the product of grace and not the cause of salvation. In this regard they aren't required for salvation.
So if I understand you correctly, you think a person can be saved without believing:

  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
  5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
I think your Gospel is as deficient at that of those who only knew about John's baptism in ACTS 19:1-5 or else you are playing dumb, because of COURSE a person must believe God exists, that they need salvation, that Jesus is God's provision for salvation, that therefore they should accept Jesus as Lord, and that they should manifest the fruit of the Spirit!
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
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So if I understand you correctly, you think a person can be saved without believing:

  1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
  2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) when they reject God’s salvation or DOD (JN 3:18).
  3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ or the way (means of providing salvation) that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11), although pre-NT truthseekers could/can learn a proto-gospel via general revelation combined with conscience.
  4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
  5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning God’s Word everyone cooperates fully with His will (RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).
I think your Gospel is as deficient at that of those who only knew about John's baptism in ACTS 19:1-5 or else you are playing dumb, because of COURSE a person must believe God exists, that they need salvation, that Jesus is God's provision for salvation, that therefore they should accept Jesus as Lord, and that they should manifest the fruit of the Spirit!
I'm saying God has already been long at work by the time those things take place. You earnestly should read more closely and not jump to conclusions. I spend more time in discussions with you speaking to your assumptions of what I share rather than what I actually post.
 
Oct 19, 2024
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I'm saying God has already been long at work by the time those things take place. You earnestly should read more closely and not jump to conclusions. I spend more time in discussions with you speaking to your assumptions of what I share rather than what I actually post.
Well, I am reading this post closely and not finding it very helpful, so I guess I should assume, no conclude, no--guess is right after all I guess--that you agree with those things. Sorry I did not gain that understanding from our previous discussion, but I agree that God went to a lot of work inspiring the Scriptures so that we can learn the full Gospel and then how we should live in cooperation with His HS.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,177
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It just strikes me as very odd that we have to establish that death actually exists because it does seem you are arguing against the fact that we do die once. I am at work but I am on my brunch break now after having been up since just before 7 and only had coffee so far... But that is normal for me... anyway... God commanded Adam not to eat of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil or he would die and death was the consequence of his disobedience for all and it is the second death Christians need not fear and do in fact escape from by grace through faith and the shed righteous blood of Jesus Christ. Psalm 116 verse 15 says precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of his faithful servants.
“It just strikes me as very odd that we have to establish that death actually exists because it does seem you are arguing against the fact that we do die once.”

no sister I understand death exists and haven’t claimed otherwise . I’ve just noted that Enoch didn’t die and walked with God by faith and he lived way back in the beginning generations of mankind.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then I noted that Jesus in the gospel offers the same thing to believers

This argument is not that death doesn’t exist , nor against the truth that all “men are appointed once to die “ and after this the judgement “ that’s not my argument I’m saying faith tells a story of Jesus our lord and savior and what he’s done for us.

This is why men die

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we’ve read the Bible we know it tells us that Enoch didn’t see death note in those generations everyone else it says “ Adam lives 965 urs and then he died “


When it comes to Enoch it just says “ he was not because God took him “ and he lived a short life on earth comparative to Adam and his son even methuselah even older than Adam . But Enoch is the one who it never said “ all the days of Enoch were and then he died “ the New Testament shows us that Enoch didn’t die he was translated by faith and never saw death .

Jesus said this sister correct ?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭

And this is why he can say and deliver that because

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

…knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: and that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:14-17‬ ‭


“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26, 43-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If he can raise the dead why can’t he promise believers will never see death or enter into condemnation ?

“For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:21, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

theres doctrine about one death by faith in Christ
 
Oct 19, 2024
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“It just strikes me as very odd that we have to establish that death actually exists because it does seem you are arguing against the fact that we do die once.”

no sister I understand death exists and haven’t claimed otherwise . I’ve just noted that Enoch didn’t die and walked with God by faith and he lived way back in the beginning generations of mankind.

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then I noted that Jesus in the gospel offers the same thing to believers

This argument is not that death doesn’t exist , nor against the truth that all “men are appointed once to die “ and after this the judgement “ that’s not my argument I’m saying faith tells a story of Jesus our lord and savior and what he’s done for us.

This is why men die

“Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5:12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we’ve read the Bible we know it tells us that Enoch didn’t see death note in those generations everyone else it says “ Adam lives 965 urs and then he died “


When it comes to Enoch it just says “ he was not because God took him “ and he lived a short life on earth comparative to Adam and his son even methuselah even older than Adam . But Enoch is the one who it never said “ all the days of Enoch were and then he died “ the New Testament shows us that Enoch didn’t die he was translated by faith and never saw death .

Jesus said this sister correct ?

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭

And this is why he can say and deliver that because

“But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭2:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death:

that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

…knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead is freed from sin. Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: and that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more. Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:14-17‬ ‭


“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this? And when he thus had spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. And he that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with graveclothes: and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go.”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26, 43-44‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If he can raise the dead why can’t he promise believers will never see death or enter into condemnation ?

“For as the Father raiseth up the dead, and quickeneth them; even so the Son quickeneth whom he will. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:21, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

theres doctrine about one death by faith in Christ
Am I the only one who finds the translation of Enoch and the resurrection of Lazarus to be problematic, because Paul calls Christ's resurrection the "firstfruits" in 1CR 15:20?
 

Kroogz

Well-known member
Dec 5, 2023
777
303
63
Am I the only one who finds the translation of Enoch and the resurrection of Lazarus to be problematic, because Paul calls Christ's resurrection the "firstfruits" in 1CR 15:20?
Phillip was translated. Acts 8:39-40(though he saw death.). Lazarus was resuscitated to his normal life and physically died later in his life. He was not resurrected. Resurrection is to eternal life or eternal death.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
14,177
5,727
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Am I the only one who finds the translation of Enoch and the resurrection of Lazarus to be problematic, because Paul calls Christ's resurrection the "firstfruits" in 1CR 15:20?
Are saying it didn’t happen or ? What’s problematic about it ? Is this also problematic ?

“Elijah the tishbite …..And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?

And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth. And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.”
‭‭1 Kings‬ ‭17:20-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭

“and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. …and all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died. and all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died. and all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died. and all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died. and all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.

and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

and all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son: and he called his name Noah….And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 24, 27-29, 32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭

Maybe there’s life for mankind if we hear Gods word telling us about life and death and always has been but we don’t always believe it’s true ?

“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what if someone chooses life ? And not death ? If Gods offering eternal life to people who are alive and well it seems like he can accomplish it
 
Oct 19, 2024
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Are saying it didn’t happen or ? What’s problematic about it ? Is this also problematic ?

“Elijah the tishbite …..And he cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, hast thou also brought evil upon the widow with whom I sojourn, by slaying her son?

And he stretched himself upon the child three times, and cried unto the LORD, and said, O LORD my God, I pray thee, let this child's soul come into him again. And the LORD heard the voice of Elijah; and the soul of the child came into him again, and he revived.

And Elijah took the child, and brought him down out of the chamber into the house, and delivered him unto his mother: and Elijah said, See, thy son liveth. And the woman said to Elijah, Now by this I know that thou art a man of God, and that the word of the LORD in thy mouth is truth.”
‭‭1 Kings‬ ‭17:20-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men.”
‭‭John‬ ‭1:1-4‬ ‭

“and Enoch walked with God after he begat Methuselah three hundred years, and begat sons and daughters: and all the days of Enoch were three hundred sixty and five years: and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years: and he died. …and all the days of Seth were nine hundred and twelve years: and he died. and all the days of Enos were nine hundred and five years: and he died. and all the days of Cainan were nine hundred and ten years: and he died. and all the days of Mahalaleel were eight hundred ninety and five years: and he died. and all the days of Jared were nine hundred sixty and two years: and he died.

and Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.

and all the days of Methuselah were nine hundred sixty and nine years: and he died. And Lamech lived an hundred eighty and two years, and begat a son: and he called his name Noah….And Noah was five hundred years old: and Noah begat Shem, Ham, and Japheth.”
‭‭Genesis‬ ‭5:5, 8, 11, 14, 17, 20, 24, 27-29, 32‬ ‭KJV‬‬

By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
‭‭John‬ ‭10:27-28‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my saying, he shall never see death.”
‭‭John‬ ‭8:51‬ ‭

Maybe there’s life for mankind if we hear Gods word telling us about life and death and always has been but we don’t always believe it’s true ?

“See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil;”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:”
‭‭Deuteronomy‬ ‭30:19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

what if someone chooses life ? And not death ? If Gods offering eternal life to people who are alive and well it seems like he can accomplish it
What is problematic is that "firstfruits" means the first person to resurrect and translate to heaven. Perhaps Enoch was a type or OT foreshadowing of Christ? What happened to Lazarus? I guess we can add 1 Kings‬ ‭17:20-24‬ ‭to the discussion, although perhaps the boy was merely revived or resuscitated.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
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God's grace is far more than the gospel.

"far more"???

Are you not the person who claims that this grace is limited to the pre-ordained chosen few mentioned in Matthew 22:14?

If the gospel is not offered universally to mankind then the gospel is by nature "far less".
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
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I'm not saying a person who is saved will not repent. I believe he will. But I believe he does so in response to God's grace and not in order to receive God's grace.
You are not very forthright in your comments.

You believe that mankind cannot and will not response in a positive manner to God' grace by his own volition.

A pre-ordained and non consensual "repentance" is one in name only.
 

HeIsHere

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May 21, 2022
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You are not very forthright in your comments.

You believe that mankind cannot and will not response in a positive manner to God' grace by his own volition.

A pre-ordained and non consensual "repentance" is one in name only.

That about sums it up perfectly.
 

Lamar

Active member
May 21, 2023
955
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What do you make of John 3:18 and what does Ephesians 2:1-3 reveal about the human condition before the grace of God comes to an individual?
Here is the verse:

John 3:18
New International Version

Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

The belief or non-belief in the Son of God is not pre-ordained or even mentioned in this verse.

____________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________


Ephesians 2:1-3
New International Version

As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our flesh and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature deserving of wrath.

There is no mention of mankind being pre-ordained "dead in transgressions, followers of the kingdom of the air or deserving of wrath." in these verses. We become this way but we are not pre-ordained

So what is your point?

Do we have the free will to believe the gospel? Be honest and straightforward.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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"far more"???

Are you not the person who claims that this grace is limited to the pre-ordained chosen few mentioned in Matthew 22:14?

If the gospel is not offered universally to mankind then the gospel is by nature "far less".
It's almost like you purposefully misremember our past conversations. You are the one who believes few will be saved. I believe heaven is populated by a number that no man can number. Abraham was promised that his progeny through Christ would number as the stars and the grains of sand.

And the grace of God is far more than the gospel means that grace doesn't just save an individual, but it empowers an individual, secures an individual, and helps an individual from the time he is born throughout eternity.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
19,319
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You are not very forthright in your comments.

You believe that mankind cannot and will not response in a positive manner to God' grace by his own volition.

A pre-ordained and non consensual "repentance" is one in name only.
This also is inaccurate. I don't believe people don't respond of their own volition. I believe they do once God condescends to them and gives them revelation of Christ and what He has done for them in Christ. Read Matthew 16:17. The church is built on this revelation.

So please stop inaccurately presenting my views.