Z
zohar
Guest
There is no penalty but there are consequences and that is what the laws of Moses are all about. Jesus did not abolished those laws.
The Law of Moses Has Not Been Abolished
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There is no penalty but there are consequences and that is what the laws of Moses are all about. Jesus did not abolished those laws.
)lol, Yes its true for one reason, People are not studying or listening to each other. Everyone assumes they are the teacher and know best.
In the past I have tried to address texts that are brought up with no avail as they are just ignored. round and round it goes. However that being said it does help people who read but don't comment. So its still worth it. Gotta think outside what is seen.
Please do a study on Old Covenant and New Covenant. We Christians are not under BOTH Covenants.
Exo_34:27 And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.
The 10 Commandments was a covenant made between God and Israel as does Scriptures plainly teach. The Old Covenant was solely to ISRAEL not to, nor ever was for the Gentiles. The 10 commandments was a covenant between God and who? Israel. Jesus gave us a NEW covenant between Jesus and all humans on this planet. Those who desire or think they should live under the old covenant will be judged by the old Covenant. Christians are under a NEW COVENANT and not bound to obey, follow, or adhere to the OLD Covenant that God set up between Him and His people the Israelites.
People stop believing this foolishness. Obey what Jesus told us, obey what Jesus Apostles told us. Do NOT have to obey what MOSES told the Israelites they must obey and follow. That's just foolishness.
^i^
††† In His Holy and Precious Name, Jesus Christ †††
DiscipleDave.com
paul addresses em quite well in book of corinthians, ephesians and galations, he was as expert as you can get really, that'll do me
What does that have to do with us living as Christ lived in victory? Are you saying because we are weak we must sin? No where in that passage does it mean that.
2 Corinthians 12:9-11New American Standard Bible (NASB)
9 And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast [a]about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.10 Therefore I am well content with weaknesses, with [b]insults, with distresses, with persecutions, with difficulties, for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then I am strong.
The end result is not we are something we are not; rather we are something that He is and the contrast of what we are outside of Him is what brings us to notice His Majesty, and what gives Him His glory..A changed life is a life that honors the Word to be truthful; and a God that is powerful - as in the most powerful. But in being changed we still are weak, yet changed.
Bottom line is we too end up strong, despite our weakness showcasing His strength.
He talks of our weaknesses (Human frailties) not our sinfulness here. He talks of insults ( When our character is being disrespected personally and scorned), He talks of persecutions (a student is no better than his master; if Jesus was persecuted, so then will we be, thus being ill-treated due to His Name we serve). He talks of difficulties, ( even the Saint will get rained on and has to work the land for food; pick up our cross and follow Jesus etc etc circumstances in other words; simply felt difficulties), in no way does any of this represent being weak in sin, So why would this verse alter a person from asking my question still: "Why can't we live out Christ's victory?"
"They that wait upon the Lord...(They themselves) shall walk, and not faint." (Isaiah 40:31).
So the verse you gave me is simply saying there is no thrill in walking; it is the test of all the stable qualities. To "walk and not faint," is the highest reach possible for strength.
Thus, when you say we can, but then follow it up with a "but....." what need do we have of the "but...." anything? It only highlights His glory as we do. Why not an AMEN instead of a "But...?'
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ITs one thing to read what Paul says, its another thing to understand what he is saying. And that takes an understanding of the Old Testament of which he is teaching.
i'm sure when paul wrote his letters he was aware who he was writing to and the knowledge they had. yeh sure many of us study the ot too today, but there was a time that wasn't available to all, so pauls letters had to suffice. they weren't any less christian.....
from reading the letters it would seem paul had just as much if not more interest in the fruits of peoples new lifes in christ than what their academic abilities were.
look at the story of the good samaritan, who had the greater biblical understanding, the well versed priests or the samaritan, and who was most pleasing to God..
look at the story of the good samaritan, who had the greater biblical understanding, the well versed priests or the samaritan, and who was most pleasing to God..
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Z
zohar
Guest
Anyone saying that we are no longer under the law of Moses, needs to study the Bible more. Romans 13:8-10English Standard Version (ESV)
Fulfilling the Law Through Love
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Also in Acts, before Jesus descended into heaven , he gave us 2 commands. 1- love your neighbor as yourself and 2- love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind. Anyone who studies up on this knows that this is every law. Why? Because all of these laws are about not going against peoples free will and obeying God in love. All of our actions do not just affect us but it affects everyone one around us. And going even further, we are to be like Christ? So common sense, it is the law. Oh and going further. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to Abolish it. Aka do away with it. Also if God is perfect, why would he give us commands, just to take them away? People don't want to obey the laws of Christ, because they don't want to learn the truth because they are selfish. If you love God, you will obey him
Fulfilling the Law Through Love
8 Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. 9 For the commandments, “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. Also in Acts, before Jesus descended into heaven , he gave us 2 commands. 1- love your neighbor as yourself and 2- love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul and mind. Anyone who studies up on this knows that this is every law. Why? Because all of these laws are about not going against peoples free will and obeying God in love. All of our actions do not just affect us but it affects everyone one around us. And going even further, we are to be like Christ? So common sense, it is the law. Oh and going further. Jesus came to fulfill the law, not to Abolish it. Aka do away with it. Also if God is perfect, why would he give us commands, just to take them away? People don't want to obey the laws of Christ, because they don't want to learn the truth because they are selfish. If you love God, you will obey him
jeremiah 31-35
33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
[h=1]Ezekiel 11:19English Standard Version (ESV)[/h]19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
[h=1]Ezekiel 36:26English Standard Version (ESV)[/h]26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Jesus said to peter get behind me satan, a few days later peter led thousands to the lord, God wrote his laws not on tablets of stone for him to read but on his heart, we dont read that peter did a quick course in study, .our walk was never to be determined by our academic abilities.
acts 4:13
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
33 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my law within them, and I will write it on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. 34 And no longer shall each one teach his neighbor and each his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.”
[h=1]Ezekiel 11:19English Standard Version (ESV)[/h]19 And I will give them one heart, and a new spirit I will put within them. I will remove the heart of stone from their flesh and give them a heart of flesh,
[h=1]Ezekiel 36:26English Standard Version (ESV)[/h]26 And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.
Jesus said to peter get behind me satan, a few days later peter led thousands to the lord, God wrote his laws not on tablets of stone for him to read but on his heart, we dont read that peter did a quick course in study, .our walk was never to be determined by our academic abilities.
acts 4:13
Now when they saw the boldness of Peter and John, and perceived that they were unlearned and ignorant men, they marvelled; and they took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus.
It has to be a 'but' because mankind, in its pride, always wants to take what he has and run with it, doing everything in his own strength and own power.
I can do all things because I am a Christian. I'm super awesome now.
No. That's not correct.
Christ is super awesome. I'm just like everyone else. Except I know that He is for me and not against me.
I can do all things Through Christ. That's not our will that is being accomplished there fyi. That's His Will and His Purpose being accomplished in us.
So yes, we can have the victory but it is always Christ who is the Victor. If you lose sight of that you don't have the victory.
That's what that verse means when it says My Grace is sufficient for you....
Usually the claims regarding the Law not being abolished is about meats and days, and maybe sometimes physical circumcision.
As an ex-Sabbathkeeper, I'd recommend these resources if someone is seriously troubled by this issue:
Sabbath in Christ, Dale Ratzlaff I don't agree with every point, but in general it is a very good introduction to the topic by an ex SDA
The Sabbath Complete: And the Ascendency of First-Day Worship, Terrence O'Hare
A sermon series entitled "The Fourth Commandment" by Dan Caffese on SermonAudio
Dan Caffese Sermons | SermonAudio.com
A summary of my position is that the Sabbath has been fulfilled in Christ, who is our spiritual rest, and that God is not concerned with days and meats. Additionally, the Mosaic Covenant is not in effect anymore, and those elements are part of the Mosaic Covenant.
You can debate alleged Torah observers for pages and pages on this topic, though. I was as bull-headed as an Armstrongite, and thought there was NO POSSIBILITY I was wrong on the topics of Sabbath, festival, and clean meat laws observance.
Every single argument they present can be refuted.
If, however, they want to observe their pick-and-choose, cafeteria plan Mosaic Covenant without making accusations about non-observers being in sin or unsaved, I have no issue with them. There may even be value in observing the shadows and types of the Mosaic Covenant. For me, though, I think it logically leads to looking down on non-observers as inferior or even unsaved. And since I abhor that aspect of it, I won't have anything to do with it.
As an ex-Sabbathkeeper, I'd recommend these resources if someone is seriously troubled by this issue:
Sabbath in Christ, Dale Ratzlaff I don't agree with every point, but in general it is a very good introduction to the topic by an ex SDA
The Sabbath Complete: And the Ascendency of First-Day Worship, Terrence O'Hare
A sermon series entitled "The Fourth Commandment" by Dan Caffese on SermonAudio
Dan Caffese Sermons | SermonAudio.com
A summary of my position is that the Sabbath has been fulfilled in Christ, who is our spiritual rest, and that God is not concerned with days and meats. Additionally, the Mosaic Covenant is not in effect anymore, and those elements are part of the Mosaic Covenant.
You can debate alleged Torah observers for pages and pages on this topic, though. I was as bull-headed as an Armstrongite, and thought there was NO POSSIBILITY I was wrong on the topics of Sabbath, festival, and clean meat laws observance.
Every single argument they present can be refuted.
If, however, they want to observe their pick-and-choose, cafeteria plan Mosaic Covenant without making accusations about non-observers being in sin or unsaved, I have no issue with them. There may even be value in observing the shadows and types of the Mosaic Covenant. For me, though, I think it logically leads to looking down on non-observers as inferior or even unsaved. And since I abhor that aspect of it, I won't have anything to do with it.
Z
zohar
Guest
The covenant. exodus 34:27-28 "And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the TENOR OF THESE WORDS I have made a COVENANT with thee and with Israel. 28And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the TEN COMMANDMENTS."
Deuteronomy 10:2 "And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them IN THE ARK."
The ten commandments are placed inside the ark , making it the ark of the covenant.
the law of moses deuteronomy 31:24-26 "And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of THIS LAW IN A BOOK, until they were finished, 25That Moses commanded the Levites, which bare the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, 26Take this book of the law, and put it IN THE SIDE OF THE ARK of the COVENANT of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a WITNESS AGAINST THEE."
The book of the Law, is placed beside the ark as a witness against those who break the covenant inside the ark.
the ten commandments are what is not abolished, the witness against sinners is the book of the mosaic Law. it is a witness according to the ten commandments within the ark.
Jesus took the punishment according to that Law for sinners, which is death sentance.
Paul says this regarding the book of the Law
colossians 2:13-15 "And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; 14Blotting out the HANDWRITING OF ORDINANCES that was AGAINST US, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; 15And having spoiled principalities and powers, he made a shew of them openly, triumphing over them in it."
we understand the ark was where Gods Glory dwelt, and the Law was placed beside the ark as a wtiness against sinners, Jesus having taken its wrath for us, was then exalted to sit at Gods right hand as an advocate FOR us.
romans 8:34 "Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the RIGHT HAND OF GOD, who also maketh intercession FOR US."
the ten commandments are valid always they fit into the law and gospel, the law witneses against those who have broken the commandments, Jesus took that away , and the WORD of God is now at His right Hand bieng a witness for us. the ark is sen in Heaven in revelation, the book of the Law, is given to Jesus the Lamb in revelation, and then after the seals are opened, the little book appears open, and is given to John. the gospel.
its important that we understand what has happened, what has been accomplished for us in this regard, what we died to, and what we Now Live in, in order to really grasp our Lives in Christ, and fully appreciate and accept the true Gospel.
Z
zohar
Guest
Paul was a Roman citizen his words don't count for anything. The laws given by god are forever; any dispute or changes is the same as worshiping a another god.
All and every commandment is kept by the Holy Spirit if the Believer is operating and understand "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus!" (Romans 8:2)
Majority of Christians are living under the "Law of Sin and Death." Very few Christians live in "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus."
There are seven great Laws outlined in the New Testament, all devised and created by God. They are:
1. The Law of God (Romans 7:22)
2. The Law of Sin and Death (Romans 7:23)
3. The Law of the Mind (Romans 7:23)
4. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2)
5. The Law of Faith (Romans 3:27)
6. The Law of Christ (Gal. 6:2); and,
7. The Law of Liberty (James 1:25)
Romans 8:13 says, "If you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live" (i.e., all Laws of God and commandments of Jesus can only be kept by the Holy Spirit when the Believer place his Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., the Cross, i.e., the Blood of Jesus).
Paul warns the Believer, he said, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, (the) sin (nature) revived, and I died (failed God by sinning, using the flesh) (Romans 7:9)."
The Way Of The Spirit
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)
Man's Way
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!
Majority of Christians are living under the "Law of Sin and Death." Very few Christians live in "The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus."
There are seven great Laws outlined in the New Testament, all devised and created by God. They are:
1. The Law of God (Romans 7:22)
2. The Law of Sin and Death (Romans 7:23)
3. The Law of the Mind (Romans 7:23)
4. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2)
5. The Law of Faith (Romans 3:27)
6. The Law of Christ (Gal. 6:2); and,
7. The Law of Liberty (James 1:25)
Romans 8:13 says, "If you live after the flesh, you shall die: but if you through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, you shall live" (i.e., all Laws of God and commandments of Jesus can only be kept by the Holy Spirit when the Believer place his Faith exclusively in Christ and His Finished Work, i.e., the Cross, i.e., the Blood of Jesus).
Paul warns the Believer, he said, "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, (the) sin (nature) revived, and I died (failed God by sinning, using the flesh) (Romans 7:9)."
The Way Of The Spirit
Focus: The Lord Jesus Christ (John 14:6)
Object Of Faith: The Cross of Christ (Romans 6:1-14)
Power Source: The Holy Spirit (Romans 8:1-2, 11)
Results: Victory (Romans 6:14)
Man's Way
Focus: Works.
Object Of Faith: Performance.
Power Source: Self.
Results: Defeat!
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