The Letter to the Romans...

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hoffco said:
Sorry, Karrester, what was said in Acts 15, must be edited by the rest of the Scriptures, it is not totally right, but was meant for that day only, "because Moses is read every Sabbath day. The sab. is gone and both Jews and Gentile Christians are under the same law for the new cov.. Love Hoffco
Click to expand...

Are you referring to ..[SUP]21 [/SUP]For from ancient generations Moses has had in every city those who proclaim him, for he is read every Sabbath in the synagogues.”

It is not totally right, ..?

If what you are saying.. Sunday worship has replaced Sabbath worship, I care not for that debate here....trying to remain focused on Romans.

If not that, please inform, as that is the only conclusion I gather from your post.
 
Karrester your post740 is perfect. This is exactly what Paul is saying.Love to all Hoffco
 
[SUP]14 [/SUP]For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.


As adopted sons, we are to be "led by the Spirit," which means to be led by God's Torah, not creating our own concept of a "spirit" who has us following some vague notion of "love," "grace" or "liberty," that is not based on God's revelation to mankind as found in the Torah.[SUP]

John 15 10 [/SUP]If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.
[SUP]14 [/SUP]Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.
[SUP]15 [/SUP]Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you.
 
Karrester, also the meat offered to idols and blood, is not to be forbidden for Christians to eat. These were temporary rules to keep peace in an inflammatory situation. And the canceling of the Sat. Sab. is in Rom. 14: 5-6 . do not judge on any one day all days are a like. But, for me and paul. the 1st day of the week was very appropreate. but not demanded by a law from God.! Love Hoff
 
ZKarrester, 744 is good; but the torah, law for us is only the new T.. Love hoff
 
[SUP]15 [/SUP]For you have not received a spirit of slavery [SUP][g][/SUP]leading to fear again, but you have received [SUP][h][/SUP]a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, “Abba! Father!”


This verse reminds me of the contrast between the Egyptian slave masters over God's people, whom by Moses were led out of bondage. As slaves in Egypt, a whip across the back or worse was inflicted for disobedience, and there was no love for the masters from the slaves, only fear of punishment.

Now we recognize our Father as our provider, for our every breath, and we do His will gladly out of love for Him. Our desire is to please Him, to hear Him say:
[h=3]Matthew 25:21[/h]King James Version (KJV)

[SUP]21 [/SUP]His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
 
Hoffco said:
ZKarrester, 744 is good; but the torah, law for us is only the new T.. Love hoff
Click to expand...

The "New Testament" did not exist when Paul wrote his letters. Would you agree with that statement?

Nevertheless, to understand Romans is to draw from Torah, and the prophets, which is exactly what Paul used.

Didn't you say you were a preacher of many years? And you do not know this?

If I am wrong, and somehow a timewarp invention existed back in those days and all the deciples had access to New Testament before it was written and were teaching off it, please explain that!
 
[SUP]All of God's Word agrees, there are no contradictions, from Genesis to Revelations.[/SUP][SUP]

16 [/SUP]The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, [SUP]17 [/SUP]and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him.

The function of a witness is to confirm the truth. Consider the hope of the one trusting in Yahshua. (From children to "heirs.")

Paul is restating a theme of chapter 6 - "baptism" and burial into Yahshua’s death (suffering). Yahshua Himself said that He would suffer (Luke 9:22).



 
Hoffco said:
Karrester, also the meat offered to idols and blood, is not to be forbidden for Christians to eat. These were temporary rules to keep peace in an inflammatory situation. And the canceling of the Sat. Sab. is in Rom. 14: 5-6 . do not judge on any one day all days are a like. But, for me and paul. the 1st day of the week was very appropreate. but not demanded by a law from God.! Love Hoff
Click to expand...

I look forward to studying chapter 14!
 
Karraster,post 747 is a Smoke bomb. to draw away from the truth I said. "all Scriptures is given by inspiration of God" but some has only a temporary application. The ordinances of the Old T. were temporary as was the sabbath keeping ; but the sabbath keeping principle is good for man. it was made for the good of man, so we should keep a day of rest ,any day. the forced Sab, is not longer wanted;because the N.T. is now pointing to our eternal REST, not one spicific day. Love Hoff
 
Karrester post 748 is great! I agree with the principle of non contradiction. All Scriptures compliment the whole. Hoff
 
Verses 18-21
In these verses, Paul is speaking of a specific event, related to the coming of Messiah and establishment of the Kingdom. He speaks of creation as waiting for this event since the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden. Paul is also beginning to transition his letter into the next phase, dealing with the current and future role of Israel - both those who do and do not yet accept Yahshua.


[SUP]18 [/SUP]For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.

God's elect must suffer and groan along with, even on behalf of - unredeemed creation. Paul shows that these "sufferings" are both on the part of the individual believer, as well as on the body of believers. Even as we hold to faith in Yahshua, we see glimpses of His glory, and is but a taste of what is to come.
 
[SUP]19 [/SUP]For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

"earnest expectation," is rare in Greek and traces back to the Hebrew root "ta’arog," used only in Psalm 21, (My soul pants for thee, O God), and in Joel 1:20, relating to the coming day of the Lord. (See also 1 Corinthians 1:7, Hebrews 9:28.)



Paul is setting up his argument in the next section (chapters 9-11) of the letter where he discusses how Israel's success will bring about the "revealing of the sons of God," for which creation is longing, and riches beyond measure. Paul will show that Israel is not done away with - she is divided.

 
[SUP]20 [/SUP]For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, [SUP]21 [/SUP]because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. [SUP]22 [/SUP]For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

 The term "vanity" (i.e., "in vain"). He is referring back to Genesis 3:17-19. Creation has not been able to fulfill the purpose of its existence due to man’s failure to do his part (because of sin). Creation is in subjection because of God who subjected it on account of man’s fall, and to show man he is in need of God. But it has hope (within the hope for man – compare Romans 16:20 to Genesis 3:15).

Paul supports the Jewish view of Messianic kingdom, which is compared to "a return to Eden." His use of, "for we know …" (verse 22), indicates he believes his audience to be aware of teachings of this tradition. The coming glory of believers comes along with the "restoration of Eden."
 
[SUP]23 [/SUP]And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body. [SUP]24 [/SUP]For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? [SUP]25 [/SUP]But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.

"First fruits" , the gift of Holy Spirit, feast of Shavuot ("Pentecost").

Paul's mention of "waiting for our adoption" refers back to v.19. We are already adopted sons of God (v. 14,16) – but this is not manifest until resurrection. We are considered "saved" when we come to trust God, but our "full salvation" still lies in the future. We can choose to walk away from this salvation as well, else why are we told to hold fast?
 
[SUP]26 [/SUP]Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.

Paul teaches that creation groans, the believer groans, and the Spirit groans. We may not know what to pray for because of our continuing conflict between flesh and spirit that has negative effect on our prayer life (Romans 7:14-25). The Spirit’s groanings are not heard by man, as God knows (hears) the intentions of the Spirit.


Proverbs 20:27 - The spirit of man is the candle of the LORD, searching all the inward parts of the belly.
​
Hebrews 4:12 - For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.
Luke 2:35 - (Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.
​
Philippians 4:13 - I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
​
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[SUP]27 [/SUP]And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.


What can I say? Nothing is hidden from God. We may not fully understand our own selves, our motives, what makes us tick, but God knows.

Often I think of the men and women of the Bible, whom God did delight in. These were not flawless individuals by man's standards, but they possessed something inside their hearts that, they found favor with God.
 
[SUP]28 [/SUP]And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This verse must surely be on the list of "most quoted verses". It is probably misunderstood by many who think it says whatever they pursue should turn out good. If that is the case, they did not read the second part of the verse. It pertains to God's purposes, and not the individual's purpose.

Paul shows, beginning in chapter 9, this "good toward which all things work," is first true with regards to His promises to Israel, a subject Paul left off in 3:3 but now returns to here and through chapters 9-11. (The "chapter breaks" were not part of Paul's original letter and perhaps do not help with the flow of the text.)

Chronological order is not necessarily achieved in the KJV, but does not create too big a hurdle especially in this age of access. It is possible, the challenge of putting it in order leads to what would have otherwise been, overlooked passages.
 
[SUP]29 [/SUP]For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. [SUP]30 [/SUP]Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

 Isaiah 43:1; 44:2,24), He called them by name (Isaiah 43:1,7; 45:4), He proclaimed to them the year of His good will (Isaiah 61:2) He created them for His glory and glorified them (Isaiah 43:7; 44:23; 46:13)[SUP]1[/SUP].

"To be conformed to the image of His son," relates to man’s creation in the image of God (Genesis 1:27). Yahshua is the "image of the invisible God" (2 Corinthians 4:4; Colossians 1:15).

 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top Bottom
Back