The mark of the beast

[iamsoandso]

That's assigning number values to letters and then adding up the number values of each letter. That's not counting the number 666. In the KJV it is given as "Six hundred threescore and six". Six hundred threescore (660) and (+) six is equal to 660 + 6 which reduces to 66 + 6.

Calculate it,pebble it(vote),decide, determine,choose,,,"here is wisdom let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast",,,it's a number that only the one with understanding can calculate. The one who calculates it is the only one who has knowledge of it and it is in their forehead and they enter it with their right hand when they buy and sell. It's how the whole earth,every nation buys and sells. No one knows yours, or their neighbors nor anyone else's because the one who calculated it is the only one with it's knowledge and they keep it in their forehead.

 

[KJV1611]

Calculate it,pebble it(vote),decide, determine,choose,,,"here is wisdom let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast",,,it's a number that only the one with understanding can calculate. The one who calculates it is the only one who has knowledge of it and it is in their forehead and they enter it with their right hand when they buy and sell. It's how the whole earth,every nation buys and sells. No one knows yours, or their neighbors nor anyone else's because the one who calculated it is the only one with it's knowledge and they keep it in their forehead.

If the number 666 isn't counted then the mark of the beast can not be understood.

 

[iamsoandso]

If the number 666 isn't counted then the mark of the beast can not be understood.

You think that everyone on earth will buy and sell with the same account number and it will be 666 or that each will have an individual number that they calculated and none of the others will have knowledge of what it is?

 

[KJV1611]

You think that everyone on earth will buy and sell with the same account number and it will be 666 or that each will have an individual number that they calculated and none of the others will have knowledge of what it is?

Rev_13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

The way I understand it, the number of the beast identifies who the beast is, it's not an account number that beast uses to control commerce.... it is the beasts identity or mark that designates him as the beast. I believe the group of men who are marked with 666 are collectively known as the beast.

Or it could be that the beast is one single man who has also been marked with 666 but we know from other scripture that all people receive his mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads, so that's why I think that all who receive the mark are collectively the beast.

The only thing about all of that that I understand with certainty is the number 666 because God said to count his number and there is only one way to count a number.

 

[Ahwatukee]

That is a great point and I have always taken that into consideration when reading folks like John, Ezekiel, and many others. But I have based non of my beliefs on what John had to compare what he saw with. My beliefs are always based on what researched word is actually speaking about in the Greek and Hebrew languages. Besides in the days of John and long before those days folks were tattooing themselves so John knew full well what a tattoo was and scripture actually speaks out against marking ourselves with tattoo's.
Lev 19:28 Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
I have seen so many Christians who believe that there is nothing wrong with tattooing themselves but it is a sin and a direct contradiction of the Word of God.
Another reason why I believe it will be a tattoo is because a microchip can be removed and reprogrammed and then the body will heal the wound leaving a small scare. But the size needed to contain all of the necessary information which include a persons financial info would be big enough to leave a good size scare if the area of flesh covered by the tattoo were to be removed. While a new tattoo can be done with different info. it would need to be put in a different place. Tattooing scare tissue is not the same as tattooing skin.

Actually, sometimes it's not about the words, but about the context. I agree regarding the tattoo's, however, John has nothing to compare with what he was seeing, so the closest word he could use was 'charagma' which doesn't only mean tattoo, but is defined as follows:

=====================================================

HELPS Word-studies
5480 xáragma – properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.

5480 /xáragma ("brand-mark") was originally any impress on a coin or a seal, used by an engraver on a die (stamp, branding iron). 5480 (xáragma) later became "the identification-marker" (like with an owner's unique "brand-mark").

[Ancient documents were validated by such stamps or seals (see Plutarch, Agesilaus, 15:6; De Lysandro 16:2, ala DNTT, 2, 574).]

======================================================

Therefore, it is not good exegesis to just hone in on the word tattoo and ignore the other descriptive words. In your post you said "I have based none of my beliefs on what John had to compare what he saw" but you should. Because it is needful to take into consideration that John in describing the mark, he is seeing something that he has nothing to compare to except for the word 'charagma' and we most definitely have to take that into consideration.

Another good example of this is found at the sounding of the 2nd trumpet. John says, "I saw something like a huge mountain all ablaze that was thrown into the sea." Well, during John's time they did not have scientific classifications for planets, stars, meteorites and comets. Therefore, everything besides the sun and the moon were stars to them. In John's vision he sees this huge mountain, he is most likely seeing an asteroid coming through the earths atmosphere which is why he describes it as being all ablaze. However, he cannot say I saw an asteroid coming through the earths atmosphere and land in the ocean. Therefore, it was a huge mountain to him on fire.

Also, a tattoo will not allow you to access your bank account to credit and debit it, that is unless it is some type of schematic tattoo, which it could be. Regarding the mark, we already have a literal RFID chip being inserted under the skin which is being used to make purchases (buying), so we have a match there and it is not tattoo. However, whatever the mark ends up evolving into, it will go on the hand or the forehead and will be used for virtual buying and selling, which is crediting and debiting.

 

[GaryA]

I do. It means to mark something as the KJV says. Sort of like 911 has been ETCHED in the minds of the American people.

I hope you realize that I wrote that post mainly to tease you...

 

[KJV1611]

I hope you realize that I wrote that post mainly to tease you...

It's a fascinating subject, I want to learn more about it.

 

[GaryA]

Well you get the point I was making. Etching something isn’t always a physical literal thing.

We use an "expanded" definition of the word today; however, 2000 years ago - I am pretty sure that the Greek word used in scripture was literal and physical.

 

[GaryA]

That's assigning number values to letters and then adding up the number values of each letter. That's not counting the number 666. In the KJV it is given as "Six hundred threescore and six". Six hundred threescore (660) and (+) six is equal to 660 + 6 which reduces to 66 + 6.

This is not correct - but, I will have to explain later when I have more time...

 

[iamsoandso]

Rev_13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

The way I understand it, the number of the beast identifies who the beast is, it's not an account number that beast uses to control commerce.... it is the beasts identity or mark that designates him as the beast. I believe the group of men who are marked with 666 are collectively known as the beast.

Or it could be that the beast is one single man who has also been marked with 666 but we know from other scripture that all people receive his mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads, so that's why I think that all who receive the mark are collectively the beast.

The only thing about all of that that I understand with certainty is the number 666 because God said to count his number and there is only one way to count a number.

In Revelation 13:17 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 13:17&version=KJV it says "that no man might buy or sell..." save/unless they that had one of three things. I mentioned this on the first page of this thread in post#14 how is it that you think that it has nothing to do with control of commerce when it says that the only ones that could buy or sell would have one or more of those three "or's"?

 

[massorite]

Actually, sometimes it's not about the words, but about the context. I agree regarding the tattoo's, however, John has nothing to compare with what he was seeing, so the closest word he could use was 'charagma' which doesn't only mean tattoo, but is defined as follows:

=====================================================

HELPS Word-studies
5480 xáragma – properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.

5480 /xáragma ("brand-mark") was originally any impress on a coin or a seal, used by an engraver on a die (stamp, branding iron). 5480 (xáragma) later became "the identification-marker" (like with an owner's unique "brand-mark").

[Ancient documents were validated by such stamps or seals (see Plutarch, Agesilaus, 15:6; De Lysandro 16:2, ala DNTT, 2, 574).]

======================================================

Therefore, it is not good exegesis to just hone in on the word tattoo and ignore the other descriptive words. In your post you said "I have based none of my beliefs on what John had to compare what he saw" but you should. Because it is needful to take into consideration that John in describing the mark, he is seeing something that he has nothing to compare to except for the word 'charagma' and we most definitely have to take that into consideration.

Another good example of this is found at the sounding of the 2nd trumpet. John says, "I saw something like a huge mountain all ablaze that was thrown into the sea." Well, during John's time they did not have scientific classifications for planets, stars, meteorites and comets. Therefore, everything besides the sun and the moon were stars to them. In John's vision he sees this huge mountain, he is most likely seeing an asteroid coming through the earths atmosphere which is why he describes it as being all ablaze. However, he cannot say I saw an asteroid coming through the earths atmosphere and land in the ocean. Therefore, it was a huge mountain to him on fire.

Also, a tattoo will not allow you to access your bank account to credit and debit it, that is unless it is some type of schematic tattoo, which it could be. Regarding the mark, we already have a literal RFID chip being inserted under the skin which is being used to make purchases (buying), so we have a match there and it is not tattoo. However, whatever the mark ends up evolving into, it will go on the hand or the forehead and will be used for virtual buying and selling, which is crediting and debiting.

Why should I base any of my conclusions on what John saw and didn't have anything to compare what he saw with or to?
God is the author of the Bible

 

[massorite]

Actually, sometimes it's not about the words, but about the context. I agree regarding the tattoo's, however, John has nothing to compare with what he was seeing, so the closest word he could use was 'charagma' which doesn't only mean tattoo, but is defined as follows:

=====================================================

HELPS Word-studies
5480 xáragma – properly, an engraving (etching); (figuratively) a mark providing undeniable identification, like a symbol giving irrefutable connection between parties.

5480 /xáragma ("brand-mark") was originally any impress on a coin or a seal, used by an engraver on a die (stamp, branding iron). 5480 (xáragma) later became "the identification-marker" (like with an owner's unique "brand-mark").

[Ancient documents were validated by such stamps or seals (see Plutarch, Agesilaus, 15:6; De Lysandro 16:2, ala DNTT, 2, 574).]

======================================================

Therefore, it is not good exegesis to just hone in on the word tattoo and ignore the other descriptive words. In your post you said "I have based none of my beliefs on what John had to compare what he saw" but you should. Because it is needful to take into consideration that John in describing the mark, he is seeing something that he has nothing to compare to except for the word 'charagma' and we most definitely have to take that into consideration.

Another good example of this is found at the sounding of the 2nd trumpet. John says, "I saw something like a huge mountain all ablaze that was thrown into the sea." Well, during John's time they did not have scientific classifications for planets, stars, meteorites and comets. Therefore, everything besides the sun and the moon were stars to them. In John's vision he sees this huge mountain, he is most likely seeing an asteroid coming through the earths atmosphere which is why he describes it as being all ablaze. However, he cannot say I saw an asteroid coming through the earths atmosphere and land in the ocean. Therefore, it was a huge mountain to him on fire.

Also, a tattoo will not allow you to access your bank account to credit and debit it, that is unless it is some type of schematic tattoo, which it could be. Regarding the mark, we already have a literal RFID chip being inserted under the skin which is being used to make purchases (buying), so we have a match there and it is not tattoo. However, whatever the mark ends up evolving into, it will go on the hand or the forehead and will be used for virtual buying and selling, which is crediting and debiting.

I am glad we agree.
Why should I base any of my conclusions on what John saw and didn't have anything to compare what he saw with or to?
God is the author of the Bible and he was in control of every word John wrote. I am not going to do that kind of digging that you have done because first of all there is no way to know if what you are talking about is true or simply speculation. We can find anything we want on the internet in our efforts to enforce what we want to believe wrong or right. Which is why I stick with good research tools, no commentaries and the understanding the Holy Spirit gives me when I research. I have found that spreading my research net out too far will bring me nothing but confusion and God never intended for our research to bring us confusion, only understanding. So with that in mind, if the Word of God say that we will receive a mark in our forehead or hand He is not talking about the same kind of stamping process that goes into making a coin. He is talking about stamping, etching, engraving and pricking a mark into our flesh.
Just think about the book of Ezekiel. He saw a space craft and absolutely didn't have anything to compare to. But today we do have something to compare Ezekiel's vision to. Yesterdays science fiction is a reality and is happening today.

 

[Ahwatukee]

Why should I base any of my conclusions on what John saw and didn't have anything to compare what he saw with or to?
God is the author of the Bible

Because John is the one relaying the information and is describing what he saw using the available words from his time to describe future things and events.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I am glad we agree.
Why should I base any of my conclusions on what John saw and didn't have anything to compare what he saw with or to?
God is the author of the Bible and he was in control of every word John wrote. I am not going to do that kind of digging that you have done because first of all there is no way to know if what you are talking about is true or simply speculation. We can find anything we want on the internet in our efforts to enforce what we want to believe wrong or right. Which is why I stick with good research tools, no commentaries and the understanding the Holy Spirit gives me when I research. I have found that spreading my research net out too far will bring me nothing but confusion and God never intended for our research to bring us confusion, only understanding. So with that in mind, if the Word of God say that we will receive a mark in our forehead or hand He is not talking about the same kind of stamping process that goes into making a coin. He is talking about stamping, etching, engraving and pricking a mark into our flesh.
Just think about the book of Ezekiel. He saw a space craft and absolutely didn't have anything to compare to. But today we do have something to compare Ezekiel's vision to. Yesterdays science fiction is a reality and is happening today.

Speculation? It can't be speculation if it is already happening.

So let's see, the word of God says that he (false prophet) will cause all to receive a mark on the right hand or forehead:

Currently, people in Sweden are being implanted with an RFID chip under the skin of the hand

Then it states that, unless anyone had the mark he would not be able to buy or sell.

The RFID chip is being used to replace their bank cards for making purchases.

So, we have two matches to the scripture here. Like I said, yes, John knows what a tattoo is, but he has no word to describe an inserted chip under the skin, so 'charagma' is the only word that he has to describe it.

However, you are free to believe that it will be a tattoo. I also believe that this will evolve into something more applicable because the RFID chip is about the size of a grain of rice, which would not be cosmetically pleasing to go under the skin of the forehead. I'm sure that this is going to evolve into something smaller and more reliable. But I don't believe it will be a tattoo, but a more evolved and smaller chip that will work in unison with electronically accessing one's bank account.

 

[GaryA]

That's assigning number values to letters and then adding up the number values of each letter. That's not counting the number 666. In the KJV it is given as "Six hundred threescore and six". Six hundred threescore (660) and (+) six is equal to 660 + 6 which reduces to 66 + 6.

I hate to break it to you brother, but - in the KJV, the phrase "Six hundred threescore and six" ('and' is supplied) is actually translated from 3 greek letters (which make up the last word in the verse). I will let you look into that from here...

What this post is about, however, is the fact that - as a number - 'Six hundred threescore' is not set apart from 'six' by the word 'and' (which, as I stated above, is supplied - but, even if it was not supplied...) - it is a matter of the 'Grammar of the Language' that it is stated that way - because of the word 'threescore'.

It still means 600 + 60 + 6 just as if we said today "six hundred sixty-six" - collectively - "counted" - it is the "final" number ('666').

 

[KJV1611]

In Revelation 13:17 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation 13:17&version=KJV it says "that no man might buy or sell..." save/unless they that had one of three things. I mentioned this on the first page of this thread in post#14 how is it that you think that it has nothing to do with control of commerce when it says that the only ones that could buy or sell would have one or more of those three "or's"?

I'm not saying the beast has nothing to do with buying or selling, I'm saying the number has nothing to do with buying or selling. The number identifies who the beast is.

 

[garee]

The first time I ask you about Revelation 13:15 https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+13:15&version=KJV you said "hmm,that's a good question" and you were much closer to understanding this then than now. You told me you would consider this and get back with me do you remember that? I will restate that same question.

In Revelation 13:15 the ones who do not worship the image are killed by the beast and his followers. Now if this is spiritual then the beast cannot understand it because it is spiritually discerned https://biblehub.com/1_corinthians/2-14.htm ... And the Scriptures state that they cannot understand things spiritually discerned.

In Revelation 13:15 the beast does understand and know who are his and those who are not and he kills those who will not worship the image. Now the ones who do worship the image are spiritually dead because they are deceived(slain spiritually). Those who were not deceived and do not worship the image are killed by the beast because they wont worship the image so they are not spiritually dead. So if he could not spiritually kill them by deception the only other method is literal,carnal death.

Now the beast cannot understand things that are spiritually discerned because the natural man cannot do this(see 1 Cor. 2:14) as written in Scripture so how does he know who to kill and not kill? The beast can clearly see the ones who don't worship the image on a literal,carnal level and kills the ones who will not worship the image literally.

Again in Revelation 19:21 https://biblehub.com/revelation/19-21.htm the rest are killed and the fowl eat their flesh. Now it is obvious from the Scripture that they were deceived and were already spiritually dead and they are killed. If they were/are spiritually dead and worship the image,beast ect. then the only other method of death is physical,carnal,literal death.

It is not me that you are trying to convince not to kill the ones who will not worship the image literally but the beast and his followers. Because they cannot discern the things that are spiritual and can only see things natural,carnal then they will do this on a carnal,physical level. The rider on the horse does kill them literally because they were spiritually dead already.

The father of lies the serial murdered from the beginning. "Thou shall not die"

Mankind is born spiritual dead according to the letter of the law . In corruption (you shall surely die ) as in dying, a person perishes and never rises again .It literal kills. The unseen law that works in the conscience of mankind .It either accuses or five minutes later excuses them.

It is not a literal mark but is the mark of Cain. (666) natural converted mankind Stamped on the forehead or mind of liars . As soon as they are born it begins it work of deception. (telling lies) You could call it the law that goes around comes around .Two wrongs do not equal right doing. The law of conscience .

Geneisis 4:15 And the Lord said unto him, Therefore whosoever slayeth Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him.

Again the mark of natural unconverted man described in Romans.

And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet. And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient; Roman 1: 27-28

By it men judge each other while being found guilty of doing the same . All sin and continue to fall short of the glory of God.

Roman 2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

God has placed a seal or mark in the forehead or hand to represent will on those who will rise and rise and receive a new incorruptible body . The mark of Cain (666) that recognized him as not having the seal will be made to no effect.

Again it has to do with the unseen law that is on the heart of all mankind .

Its an evil generation (666) that seek after literal sign seen. Making it into a literal mark promotes a lying sign as a wonder. we walk by faith (the unseen seal ) . Not as the evil genraration (666) Those not sealed in their forehead

Revelation 7:3Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.

Revelation 9:4And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

The rider on the high horse like Cain falls off because they drank the poison of false prophecy violating the spirit of Judgment.

Genesis 49:16-18 King James Version (KJV) Dan shall judge his people, as one of the tribes of Israel. Dan shall be a serpent by the way, an adder in the path, that biteth the horse heels, so that his rider shall fall backward.

No need to make it into a lying sign, as a wonder. Wondering does not supply faith (knowing with certainty )

 

[KJV1611]

I hate to break it to you brother, but - in the KJV, the phrase "Six hundred threescore and six" ('and' is supplied) is actually translated from 3 greek letters (which make up the last word in the verse). I will let you look into that from here...

What this post is about, however, is the fact that - as a number - 'Six hundred threescore' is not set apart from 'six' by the word 'and' (which, as I stated above, is supplied - but, even if it was not supplied...) - it is a matter of the 'Grammar of the Language' that it is stated that way - because of the word 'threescore'.

It still means 600 + 60 + 6 just as if we said today "six hundred sixty-six" - collectively - "counted" - it is the "final" number ('666').

You're only considering one way to factor 666 - 6 hundreds + 6 tens + 6 ones.
666 ones is another way.
And another way - 66 tens + 6 ones. This one reveals the identity of the beast.

 

[garee]

I hate to break it to you brother, but - in the KJV, the phrase "Six hundred threescore and six" ('and' is supplied) is actually translated from 3 greek letters (which make up the last word in the verse). I will let you look into that from here...

What this post is about, however, is the fact that - as a number - 'Six hundred threescore' is not set apart from 'six' by the word 'and' (which, as I stated above, is supplied - but, even if it was not supplied...) - it is a matter of the 'Grammar of the Language' that it is stated that way - because of the word 'threescore'.

It still means 600 + 60 + 6 just as if we said today "six hundred sixty-six" - collectively - "counted" - it is the "final" number ('666').

Three is used throughout the bible in various parables to indicate the end of the matter or that at hand. No sign as a lying wonders. 'The last true sign was fulfilled with Jesus.

Matthew 12:39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation (666) seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:

John 4:48 Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye (666) see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

Mark 13:22 For false Christs and false prophets (666) shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.

 

[garee]

I'm not saying the beast has nothing to do with buying or selling, I'm saying the number has nothing to do with buying or selling. The number identifies who the beast is.

I would agree.

The buying and selling has to do with truths of the gospel and not the temporal needs of the flesh that will die and return to the dust..

Things of Eternity. Things of God not seen is in view .

Proverbs 23:23 Buy the truth, and sell it not; also wisdom, and instruction, and understanding.

Esau sold his birthright for a cup of soup .Seeing no value in the unseen things of God.

The proper interpretation tool is needed in order to rightly divide the parables . Parables teach us how to walk by faith .the eternal not seen .

Note . . (Purple) my addition as a opinion

Note . . Black temporal 666

Note . . Green life giving

2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, (corrupted flesh 666 ) but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

It would seem as six. . . sixth day of creation is used to represent mankind beast made of the clay of the field .

The number seven, the number of perfection or complete would represent our unseen eternal God .

Three is used throughout the bible to represent the end of the matter. Nothing can be added or taken away. Like for instance. Where two or three as a family or nation gather together under the authority of his name or power he is there working in and with them . Providing the peace of God that surpasses our understanding the understanding we receive of him giving us ears to understand. Christ in us the living hope .

The number two is used as a equal to three (the end of the matter) . Two, husband and wife . Three or more a family, as nation of people.

In order to inform the disciples he revealed the understanding of the parable .

A person is perfectly sealed with forgiveness. He uses 77, the same as 777 .The end of the matter. We are sealed in the forehead perfectly the mark 777. . V Christians have the mind of Christ working making the load lighter. He is our rest.

Mathew 18: 18-22 “I can assure you that when you speak judgment here on earth, it will be God’s judgment. And when you promise forgiveness here on earth, it will be God’s forgiveness. To say it another way, if two of you on earth agree on anything you pray for, my Father in heaven will do what you ask. Yes, if two or three people are together believing in me, I am there with them.” Then Peter came to Jesus and asked, “Lord, when someone won’t stop doing wrong to me, how many times must I forgive them? Seven times?” Jesus answered, “I tell you, you must forgive them more than seven times. You must continue to forgive them even if they do wrong to you seventy-seven times.


Isaiah 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the Lord of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.