"The Meaning of Foreknew in Romans 8:29"

[Cameron143]

Haven't heard anyone refute from the passage that it is not what God foreknew, but who God foreknew. The foreknowledge isn't a knowledge concerning individuals, but a knowledge of the persons themselves. The implication is that God is in intimate relationship with these individuals.

 

[dkontner]

God created time, He isn't in it. We are. He knew me before I was born and knows my destiny. There is nothing God does not know.

Isaiah 46​

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

 

[PaulThomson]

Acts :26:4-6 My manner of life from my youth, which was spent from the beginning among my own nation at Jerusalem, all the Jews know. They knew me from the first, if they were willing to testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion I lived a Pharisee.
And now I stand and am judged for the hope of the promise made by God to our fathers.

"Knew, meaning they have known him and his strict Pharisaic lifestyle. "Knew" in Acts 26 simply means the Jews were personally acquainted with Paul's past. In this context, foreloved would not apply.

Exactly. And why would proginOskO need to be any different in Romans 8?

 

[WayneNSO]

Romans 8:29 For whom he did foreknow refers to the Northern tribes of Israel who God had a covenant relationship with and had divorced because of their disobedience and idolatry but had promised to redeem. These are the lost sheep that God promised to bring back into covenant relationship with him.

They had become like the gentile nations

Romans 11:25 tells us that Israel is blind in part to its identity, until the fullness of the gentiles come in

 

[PaulThomson]

God created time, He isn't in it. We are.

Time is an attribute of God. Like love, truth and wisdom, time is in God.

He knew me before I was born

No, He didn’t. He began to know you when you started being formed in the womb. Scripture says “before I was formed, You knew me”; not, “Before I was conceived I knew you."

and knows my destiny.

He knows the plans He has for you. We don’t always accept His plans for us. He sometimes does not get what he expected.

Isa 5:2 And he fenced it, and gathered out the stones thereof, and planted it with the choicest vine, and built a tower in the midst of it, and also made a winepress therein: and he looked that it should bring forth grapes, and it brought forth wild grapes.
Isa 5:3 And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem, and men of Judah, judge, I pray you, betwixt me and my vineyard.
Isa 5:4 What could have been done more to my vineyard, that I have not done in it? wherefore, when I looked that it should bring forth grapes, brought it forth wild grapes?

Luk 7:30
But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God to/for (eis) themselves, being not baptized of him.

2Pe 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

There is nothing God does not know.

Isaiah 46​

10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:

46:10 מַגִּיד מֵרֵאשִׁית אַחֲרִית וּמִקֶּדֶם אֲשֶׁר לֹא־נַעֲשׂוּ אֹמֵר עֲצָתִי תָקוּם וְכָל־חֶפְצִי אֶעֱשֶׂה׃
Declaring (מַגִּיד) an-end (מֵרֵאשִׁית) from-a-beginning (אַחֲרִית) and-from-easterly/earlier (וּמִקֶּדֶם) things-which (אֲשֶׁר) not-were/are-done (לֹא־נַעֲשׂוּ), saying (אֹמֵר), “My-counsel (עֲצָתִי) I-was/am/will-be-establishing (תָקוּם) and-all (-וְכָל) My-good-pleasure (חֶפְצִי-) I-was/am/will-be-doing (אֶעֱשֶׂה׃).
So, the Hebrew says, “Declaring an end from a beginning.” It is not a claim that everything that happens is determined or declared by God from the very first second of the universe. God’s counsel in this context is -


Isa 46:11
Calling a bird of prey from the east,
From a far country, the man (Cyrus) of My purpose.
Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass.
I have planned it, be assured I will do it.

It a specific plan for a particular ruler God is summoning from the East, not evry event in history.

11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.

As above.

Revelation 1
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:
2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.
3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

This is a broad brush sketch pointing out a select few of the events and currents of past history, and of the future that God intends to make sure come to pass It is not a claim that every event of history has been and will be engineered by God to happen as He has always willed it to happen..

 

[Dave123]

Exactly. And why would proginOskO need to be any different in Romans 8?

The context is different. When God foreknows someone, it means He has a relationship with that person.

This is important. Everything that God says is going to happen is predestined. It's going to happen. Other wise His promises would not be true. Predestination does not need to be from the foundations of the world. It can be decreed from the foundations of the world, ordained from that same decree, but the predestination begins when the relationship begins. That's Jesus being the Author and Finisher of our life (Hebrews 12:2). That Jesus guaranteeing that once He starts something with us, He finishes it (Philippians 1:6). And this was decreed from the foundations of the world. When Jesus says that He is the Author and Finisher of our faith, the life, it's true. He always finishes a work in someone once He has started. When we receive the indwelling Holy Spirit, that life has begun (Galatians 3:2-3). We, who have begun being perfected, will finish being perfected.

What I'm talking about is the same thing. It's just a different context. I'm not speaking of atheism to believer. I'm speaking of OT believer (relationship begun, thus foreknown), is predestined to a NT relationship (the life), so that person can have all that God promised him in the OT. Without being placed into Christ, a person cannot be saved, even an OT believer. What they had in the OT relationship was only in promise. Acts records that promise beginning to be given to those who were owed it.

Those who He foreknew (OT faith), He predestined (NT faith, the life) to be conformed to Christlikeness. Which begins with the life, the indwelling. This is what OT believers were owed.

Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

In my opinion, this discussion is is going to be pulled into the extremes by assuming predestination starts with an eternal decree. He can ordain from an eternal decree (positively allowed), and from that, predestine that faith to finish it's course. That's what He did. He ordained from eternal decree, a predestination in time, from start to finish.

We become elect with Jesus, when we are placed into Him. And we also become predestined with Him (in the shorter context). That's one predestination. When you read the Ephesians passage below, think of Acts. Jesus' prayer that we all be made one in Him was and is answered with the baptism with the Holy Spirit, placing into Him every believer and making them one with Him. Remember, Jesus said that all that the Father gave Him, He should not lose one of them. That too is a 'in time' predestination, ordained from the foundations of the world. Remember, predestination speaks of what is positively cause by God. Ordain is an umbrella word that encompasses God's complete sovereignty. Ordain can be positively caused, or positively allowed.

Ephesians 1:10-14 that in the dispensation of the fullness of the times (The NT beginning) He might gather together in one all things in Christ (OT believers), both which are in heaven and which are on earth--in Him. In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

Do you see what I mean? God could have foreknown them already because of their OT faith. They still were not conformed, or begun to be conformed to Christlikeness if they had not yet trusted in the Gospel message and became 'in Christ'. That's when they begin to be conformed to Christlikeness by the Spirit indwelling. The process of being perfected (Gal 3:2-3).