The MOST CONTROVERSIAL STATEMENT MADE

[dcontroversal]

I do not believe that baptism saves, I believe it is a necessary condition. Even Israel was baptized...

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

They were baptized in type, yet they were baptized. It is a necessary condition.

I agree concerning Israel, and so were the children of Israel that entered the land as the Jordon was stacked for the new generation that grew up in the wilderness...It is an identifier and disassociates us and distinguishes us as separate from the world that is guilty and still in sin.....My stance is that it does not save, and or add to salvation as that is complete in Jesus.....it is the first act of obedience, is a work of righteousness and states to the world in a public way that you are dead to the old man, buried with Christ and resurrected a new creation in Christ Jesus........!

Baptism is to the N.T. what circumcision was to the O.T. and Abraham.....Abraham had faith and a name change and was directed by God before he had circumcision...It is an identifier.....!

 

[dcontroversal]

you claim to understand....Why did Paul ask? ...were you baptised in the name of Paul?...it is because they were baptised in the name of Jesus Christ...as all believers should...does this scripture apply to you?

Acts 2:38-39King James Version (KJV)
[SUP]38 [/SUP]Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
[SUP]39 [/SUP]For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

Yeah...go study that from the Greek and you will see that the Episcopalian priests (who believe in water salvation) took the liberty to accentuate it so as to make it appear to teach water redemption......and then go study the word SAVE in Peter's statement out of the GREEK and then go study ALL the scriptures that teach FAITH and then come to a new conclusion based upon all the material as opposed to 2 sets of verses used out of context!

Post 72 and 77

 

[elf3]

I am just gonna jump in here with John 3:5 KJV "Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God' ".

Now what I will do is add 3 different study Bible notes on this verse. The reason I am doing this is for all to see how it is explained in 3 different "versions".

The King James Study Bible--3:5 Born of water implies natural, physical birth, since Spirit refers to supernatural spiritual birth.

The NIV Study Bible--3:5 born of water and the Spirit. A phrase understood in various ways: 1. It means much the same as "born of the Spirit" (v.8; cf. Tit 3:5). 2. Water refers to purification. 3. Water refers to baptism--that of John (1:31) or that of Jesus and his disciples (v.22; 4:1-2).

New Geneva Study Bible NKJV--3:5 born of water and the Spirit. Some suggest that the "water" is the release of fluid that accompanies physical birth, but linguistic considerations point to understanding "water" and "Spirit" as referring to a single spiritual birth. Many interpreters understand "water" here as the water of baptism, but such a reference, before Christian baptism was instituted, would have been meaningless to Nicodemus. Others find a reference to John's baptism, but Jesus nowhere makes John's baptism a requirement for salvation. Probably the statement refers to Old Testament passages in which the terms "water" and "Spirit" are linked to express the pouring out of God's Spirit in the end times (Is 33:15; 44:3; Ezek 36:25-27). The presence of such rich Old Testament imagery accounts for Jesus' reproof of Nicodemus (v.10): as a "teacher of Israel, he should have understood.

In 3 different Study Bibles all put together by different groups of men we come to a pretty good conclusion that "water" is not implying a "water baptism". Only the NIV mentions it as a meaning of "water baptism" and it is the last of 3 notes on the verse.

Now the rebuttal will be that these notes are written by men so they can misinterpret the passage. All I can say is study the passage yourself by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Let Him guide you and teach you.

 

[dcontroversal]

I am just gonna jump in here with John 3:5 KJV "Jesus answered, 'Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God' ".

Now what I will do is add 3 different study Bible notes on this verse. The reason I am doing this is for all to see how it is explained in 3 different "versions".

The King James Study Bible--3:5 Born of water implies natural, physical birth, since Spirit refers to supernatural spiritual birth.

The NIV Study Bible--3:5 born of water and the Spirit. A phrase understood in various ways: 1. It means much the same as "born of the Spirit" (v.8; cf. Tit 3:5). 2. Water refers to purification. 3. Water refers to baptism--that of John (1:31) or that of Jesus and his disciples (v.22; 4:1-2).

New Geneva Study Bible NKJV--3:5 born of water and the Spirit. Some suggest that the "water" is the release of fluid that accompanies physical birth, but linguistic considerations point to understanding "water" and "Spirit" as referring to a single spiritual birth. Many interpreters understand "water" here as the water of baptism, but such a reference, before Christian baptism was instituted, would have been meaningless to Nicodemus. Others find a reference to John's baptism, but Jesus nowhere makes John's baptism a requirement for salvation. Probably the statement refers to Old Testament passages in which the terms "water" and "Spirit" are linked to express the pouring out of God's Spirit in the end times (Is 33:15; 44:3; Ezek 36:25-27). The presence of such rich Old Testament imagery accounts for Jesus' reproof of Nicodemus (v.10): as a "teacher of Israel, he should have understood.

In 3 different Study Bibles all put together by different groups of men we come to a pretty good conclusion that "water" is not implying a "water baptism". Only the NIV mentions it as a meaning of "water baptism" and it is the last of 3 notes on the verse.

Now the rebuttal will be that these notes are written by men so they can misinterpret the passage. All I can say is study the passage yourself by the guidance of the Holy Spirit. Let Him guide you and teach you.

Nicodemus understood it to mean a physical birth....Jesus explains it in verses 5 and 6 and contradicts the two against themselves...WATER-->of the FLESH, Spirit-->Born of the Spirit

To say that water baptism equals spiritual birth contradicts all of the scriptures that point to faith and goes against the order given throughout the bible....

faith/belief--->saved--->public profession of faith (immersion)

 

[elf3]

I should have added this to my previous post. If someone wants the names of all the contributors on each of the Study Bibles I used so you can see their credentials I will gladly give them.

 

[john832]

Nicodemus understood it to mean a physical birth....Jesus explains it in verses 5 and 6 and contradicts the two against themselves...WATER-->of the FLESH, Spirit-->Born of the Spirit

To say that water baptism equals spiritual birth contradicts all of the scriptures that point to faith and goes against the order given throughout the bible....

faith/belief--->saved--->public profession of faith (immersion)

Are you sure of this?

do you equate entering the Kingdom of God to physical birth?

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

 

[dcontroversal]

Are you sure of this?

do you equate entering the Kingdom of God to physical birth?

Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.
Joh 3:8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.

I am sure that baptism does not save, does not go before faith and salvation and is a picture of what has taken place inwardly which is hard for anyone to see when they believe in a watered down salvation!

See the difference is.....

1. I believe in salvation by faith dia grace and HAVE BEEN IMMERSED as a public witness and testimony of my eternal salvation which is the order GIVEN.....MAKE DISCIPLES (salvation dia faith) then IMMERSE them in the name of the Father, the Son and the HOLY SPIRIT

2. Water pushers believe that their BAPTISM saves them and or adds to faith for salvation!

Those who believe in water PUT WATER first in the John 3 text which contradicts the order given by Jesus in the great commission (so-called)

One is a correct gospel...the other is not!

 

[pastac]

Im pretty sure Jesus trumps any teaching sayings or thought of mine yours and Pauls!!!!! Paul said Paul said what about Jesus words Jesus actions??

 

[notuptome]

Again, you see what you think we believe. That water is not holy because it is water. It is not holy because the priest does the sign of the cross over it. It is not holy because the Paschal candle is dipped three times into it. It is considered holy because of God's gifting grace. And again, it is not the water, for if it was the water, then the blessing would only last as long as the water remained wet. However, because it is God's gifting spirit of grace, it is due to faith in Christ and God's eternal will.

You ignore scripture. There is no biblical construct for what you suggest.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17 Faith like grace is a gift of God but grace is not given in measure. Grace is fully bestowed the moment a soul comes to a saving knowledge of Christ. Faith is increased as we study Gods word.

You are too caught up in superstition to see that many of Rome's teachings oppose scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[dcontroversal]

You ignore scripture. There is no biblical construct for what you suggest.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17 Faith like grace is a gift of God but grace is not given in measure. Grace is fully bestowed the moment a soul comes to a saving knowledge of Christ. Faith is increased as we study Gods word.

You are too caught up in superstition to see that many of Rome's teachings oppose scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Such is the case of all who have been (religionized) if you will....yeah I know....my own word!

 

[notuptome]

I do not believe that baptism saves, I believe it is a necessary condition. Even Israel was baptized...

1Co 10:1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;
1Co 10:2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

They were baptized in type, yet they were baptized. It is a necessary condition.

As all believers are baptized in the Holy Spirit. Jesus in John 20 breathed upon them and said receive ye the Holy Spirit. The filling with power followed at Pentecost but the baptism all believers must have was given in John 20 in the upper room.

Titus 3:5 the baptism of regeneration without which no person is saved. Ephesians 2 we are quickened or made alive by the Holy Spirit because we were dead in trespass and sin.

Water baptism is a tradition to show what has taken place in the soul of man by the Holy Spirit and determinate will of Almighty God.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

 

[dcontroversal]

Every Roman Catholic church I have ever been in has had holy water at the entrance. I know it's not really holy but its there and the priest always has some to sprinkle around in his ceremonial performance.

Scripture says that grace is received through faith and faith created by hearing the word of God not through water baptism. Eph 2:8-9. Show me scripture where grace is imparted by water baptism.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

No doubt and you will not find it in the bible....maybe in books written by lost men about the bible!

 

[ThomistColin]

You ignore scripture. There is no biblical construct for what you suggest.

Faith comes by hearing and hearing the word of God. Romans 10:17 Faith like grace is a gift of God but grace is not given in measure. Grace is fully bestowed the moment a soul comes to a saving knowledge of Christ. Faith is increased as we study Gods word.

You are too caught up in superstition to see that many of Rome's teachings oppose scripture.

For the cause of Christ
Roger

Actually it is you who are caught up in superstition. We recognize that God is great and meets people where they live. 7 times one man had to go into the Jordan to be healed, was it the water or was it the grace of God? What would have happened had he only gone once into the river, or only six times? He would not have been healed.

God works without and within His creation. His miracles can be miraculous or mundane, as mundane as having water poured on your forehead or as miraculous as to make the sun dance in the sky. We see God as greater than His creation, so great and powerful that His deeds and miracles can be worked on the sub-atomic and even lower levels. Some only believe God can do great things in big ways. We believe He also works in the silence of the world.

Honestly Roger, your god just isn't big enough to be God.

 

[SeaBass]

You know...for those who teach a watered down salvation and the ones who trust into baptism as part of their salvation explain the following....

IF BAPTISM IS NECESSARY FOR SALVATION THEN WHY DID PAUL SAY....

I THANK GOD I BAPTIZED NONE OF YOU but Crispus and Gaius.....1st Corinthians 1:14

This man wrote almost HALF of the N.T. and IF BAPTISM WAS CRITICAL to SALVATION then this has got to be the most controversial statement in the bible and he must have been off of his rocker to pen that statement!

It is also the most anti-evangelistic statement in the scriptures if BAPTISM is NECESSARY....

GOD said...WHEN I SEE THE BLOOD I WILL PASS OVER YOU........

HE DID NOT SAY.....WHEN I SEE THE BLOOD, WATER AND WORKS I WILL PASS OVER YOU!

IF BAPTISM was necessary...PAUL WOULD HAVE BEEN IMMERSING EVERYBODY that he could get HIS HANDS ON as his hearts desire was to win everyone to the truth and eternal life!

1) Why would Paul baptism them if water baptism was not even necessary to salvation.

2) since there is ONE baptism then 1 Cor 12:13 must be water baptism as 1 Cor 1:14,15.

3) the reason Paul said "I thank God that I baptized none of you,but Crispus and Gaius; " was NOT because water baptism is unnecesary to being saved, but Paul was thankful he baptized none but Crispus and Gaius "Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name." There was division at Corinth where they were not following Christ but instead followed the person that had baptized them. So Paul had others than himself baptize most of the Corinthians so none could claim Paul was making the Corinthians followers of himself.

4)
1 Cor 1:12 "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."
1 Cor 1:13 "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

The above is "proof text" for the necessity of water baptism for Paul used this necessity to heal the division at Corinth.
Instead of all being "OF" Christ, some of the Corinthians were saying they were "OF" Paul or "OF" Apollos" or "OF" Cephas.

In v12 Paul asks a rhetorical question in the negative. Said in the positive verse 13 says "Christ is NOT divided! Christ was crucified for you. You were baptized in the name of Christ.

Paul's point being this; if you are "OF" someone then two things must be true. That someone must be:
(1) crucified for you and
(2) you must be baptized in that someone's name.

These two things are only true of Christ, so none could be of Paul or of Apollos or of Cephas.

So for anyone to be "OF" Christ then Christ must have been 1) crucified for you and you 2) must be baptized in the name of Christ. Paul made both points necessary, not just the first one.

1)Was Christ crucified for you? Heb 2:9 Christ tasted death for every man. Then why isn't every man saved?

2) for every man has not been water baptized in the name of the Lord.

Again, Paul made BOTH 1 and 2 necessary to be of Christ.

 

[SeaBass]

Luke 3:16 John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.

The pronoun "you' appears twice in this verse. How do people make themselves either of the pronouns "you" in this passage when John was not speaking to anyone today?

 

[SeaBass]

Remember the thief on the cross. He believed in Christ but was too busy dying to get down and be baptized or do any good works. What a picture. Two thieves, one believed and one didn't. One saved, one lost and Christ divides the two of them and the whole world.

What verse says the thief was never baptized?

 

[SeaBass]

....for the remission. For: Greek: eis, which also is used as-because of, in regard to.

Mt 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for(eis) the remission of sins."

Christ shed His blood BECAUSE sins were ALREADY remitted?

 

[dcontroversal]

What verse says the thief was never baptized?

What verse said he was....NO MURDER hath eternal life dwelling in him and it is evident by context that the thief met the Lord that day on the cross and acknowledged him as Lord...to bad your heretical Campbellite doctrine wont allow you to see the truth!

 

[dcontroversal]

Mt 26:28 "For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for(eis) the remission of sins."

Christ shed His blood BECAUSE sins were ALREADY remitted?

Yeah no doubt as you would do well to learn Greek as in God's eyes many things were done before the casting down of the world in God's eyes due the certainty of it....another truth you fail to understand from being blinded by following Alexander Campbell!

 

[dcontroversal]

1) Why would Paul baptism them if water baptism was not even necessary to salvation.

2) since there is ONE baptism then 1 Cor 12:13 must be water baptism as 1 Cor 1:14,15.

3) the reason Paul said "I thank God that I baptized none of you,but Crispus and Gaius; " was NOT because water baptism is unnecesary to being saved, but Paul was thankful he baptized none but Crispus and Gaius "Lest any should say that I had baptized in mine own name." There was division at Corinth where they were not following Christ but instead followed the person that had baptized them. So Paul had others than himself baptize most of the Corinthians so none could claim Paul was making the Corinthians followers of himself.

4)
1 Cor 1:12 "Now this I say, that every one of you saith, I am of Paul; and I of Apollos; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ."
1 Cor 1:13 "Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?"

The above is "proof text" for the necessity of water baptism for Paul used this necessity to heal the division at Corinth.
Instead of all being "OF" Christ, some of the Corinthians were saying they were "OF" Paul or "OF" Apollos" or "OF" Cephas.

In v12 Paul asks a rhetorical question in the negative. Said in the positive verse 13 says "Christ is NOT divided! Christ was crucified for you. You were baptized in the name of Christ.

Paul's point being this; if you are "OF" someone then two things must be true. That someone must be:
(1) crucified for you and
(2) you must be baptized in that someone's name.

These two things are only true of Christ, so none could be of Paul or of Apollos or of Cephas.

So for anyone to be "OF" Christ then Christ must have been 1) crucified for you and you 2) must be baptized in the name of Christ. Paul made both points necessary, not just the first one.

1)Was Christ crucified for you? Heb 2:9 Christ tasted death for every man. Then why isn't every man saved?

2) for every man has not been water baptized in the name of the Lord.

Again, Paul made BOTH 1 and 2 necessary to be of Christ.

Again more pseudo Catholic/Campbellistic heresy...baptism is not necessary for salvation and has nothing at all to do with it...what is tragic is the fact that one day soon you will come to realize this...Albeit too late as your gospel of a different kind will take you some place extremely hot where you will beg for the very water that you so trusted into.