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The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.Hyper Grace
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FreeNChrist
Guest
Not much of a student of the bible are you?
Then [the resurrected Jesus] said to Thomas, “Place your finger here and see my hands, and place your hand and put [it] into my side. And do not be unbelieving, but believing!” John 20:27
And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as though slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth. Revelation 5:6
And I saw in the midst of the throne and of the four living creatures and in the midst of the elders a Lamb standing as though slaughtered, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent into all the earth. Revelation 5:6
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FreeNChrist
Guest
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ladylynn
Guest
I appreciate that clarification Ben. Am not a Gnostic., have never been a Gnostic and don't have ANY similarities to a Gnostic. I am not believing nor have I ever believed the way the OP has continually described anyone who believes in the gospel of grace and truth that Jesus brought under the new covenant of grace.
The neo-Gnostic spirit of New.Modern.HyperGrace.........yeeeesssshhhhh calling fellow believers, brothers and sisters here on CC such a conglomeration of names doesn't even make any sense unless a person is familiar with the terms and sayings of the OP.
Salvation is by grace through faith and we are saved UNTO good works NOT by them. The works come after the salvation. Eph.2:8-10 Jesus is the only way to God., Christ is the only Savior.,the only Way. He gives a beautiful picture of His relationship with His sheep in John 10.
P.S. What in the world is on that guys face in post #6 and what are you trying to get across here Skinski ???? He looks like a terrorist or someone who is a fugitive.
The Grace Quiz
1. Hyper-grace preachers are against repentance.
This, of course points right back to not understanding what “repentance” is. Repentance, a change in our belief, our thinking, is essential to becoming a Christian in the first place. Of course Grace preachers declare repentance as necessary.
2. Hyper-grace preachers are against confession.
Only confession to a man hired for the purpose of hearing your words.
3. The hyper-grace gospel is universalism in disguise.
To an extent, Christianity is the universal inclusion of any human who accepts Jesus. We have done our usual “labeling” to try to deny this truth as preached by Jesus.
4. Hyper-grace preachers say it’s wrong to ask God for forgiveness.
Not at all. They preach that we MUST ask for the forgiveness that is awaiting us. They equate continual asking to be forgiven as tantamount to pleading with your Earthly father, daily, to love you.
5. Hyper-grace preachers say God is not grieved by your sin.
Kind of ridiculous to even consider. I have never heard that kind of nonsense stated by anyone.
6. Hyper-grace preachers are against the law.
Of course they are against the law as a requirement for Salvation. They welcome it as a guide to living in Christ.
7. Hyper-grace preachers ignore the Old Testament.
Some probably do preach almost exclusively from the NT. So did the legalistic CoC I was in for 12 years. This needs to be addressed.
8. Hyper-grace preachers disregard the words of Jesus.
Until I began attending a Grace church, I had never heard so many words of Jesus preached from the pulpit.
9. The hyper-grace gospel encourages sin.
Yes, it can. If that is what you are looking for. That, of course can be said of any discipline. The Pharisees are ample proof of that.
10. The hyper-grace gospel discourages obedience and holy living.
Depends upon our definitions. Yes, they do discourage letting ourselves think that keeping rules will somehow make us, Holy. But, on the other hand, I have probably lived closer to God since attending a Grace church than at any other time in my long life.
11. Hyper-grace preachers don’t talk about hell and wrath.
That one is partially true. You won’t find scare tactics used in a Grace church. Jesus wanted us to follow Him because we love Him, not because we are afraid of Him. Grace preachers feel the same.
12. The hyper-grace gospel makes people lazy.
Lazy people are lazy. Nothing makes them that way. If you were to spend an hour or two at our congregation BEFORE or AFTER the service, it would blow your mind how much concentrated enterprise is being done for others. And it goes on all week long.
1. Hyper-grace preachers are against repentance.
This, of course points right back to not understanding what “repentance” is. Repentance, a change in our belief, our thinking, is essential to becoming a Christian in the first place. Of course Grace preachers declare repentance as necessary.
2. Hyper-grace preachers are against confession.
Only confession to a man hired for the purpose of hearing your words.
3. The hyper-grace gospel is universalism in disguise.
To an extent, Christianity is the universal inclusion of any human who accepts Jesus. We have done our usual “labeling” to try to deny this truth as preached by Jesus.
4. Hyper-grace preachers say it’s wrong to ask God for forgiveness.
Not at all. They preach that we MUST ask for the forgiveness that is awaiting us. They equate continual asking to be forgiven as tantamount to pleading with your Earthly father, daily, to love you.
5. Hyper-grace preachers say God is not grieved by your sin.
Kind of ridiculous to even consider. I have never heard that kind of nonsense stated by anyone.
6. Hyper-grace preachers are against the law.
Of course they are against the law as a requirement for Salvation. They welcome it as a guide to living in Christ.
7. Hyper-grace preachers ignore the Old Testament.
Some probably do preach almost exclusively from the NT. So did the legalistic CoC I was in for 12 years. This needs to be addressed.
8. Hyper-grace preachers disregard the words of Jesus.
Until I began attending a Grace church, I had never heard so many words of Jesus preached from the pulpit.
9. The hyper-grace gospel encourages sin.
Yes, it can. If that is what you are looking for. That, of course can be said of any discipline. The Pharisees are ample proof of that.
10. The hyper-grace gospel discourages obedience and holy living.
Depends upon our definitions. Yes, they do discourage letting ourselves think that keeping rules will somehow make us, Holy. But, on the other hand, I have probably lived closer to God since attending a Grace church than at any other time in my long life.
11. Hyper-grace preachers don’t talk about hell and wrath.
That one is partially true. You won’t find scare tactics used in a Grace church. Jesus wanted us to follow Him because we love Him, not because we are afraid of Him. Grace preachers feel the same.
12. The hyper-grace gospel makes people lazy.
Lazy people are lazy. Nothing makes them that way. If you were to spend an hour or two at our congregation BEFORE or AFTER the service, it would blow your mind how much concentrated enterprise is being done for others. And it goes on all week long.
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ladylynn
Guest
Communion is not a time to remember sin, it is a time to remember Christ.
It's a celebration of what Christ has already done and finished for us. We do not go to confess our sins., we go to Confess Jesus Christ and remember Him.,,do this in remembrance of "Me" He said. The confession of sin is for those who do not have Christ yet. Coming to the table 'unworthily' is coming without Christ. We believers have Him 'already'. There are no fearful expectations for the bride. We are to come to communion together as believers often to remember what Christ did for us when He shed His blood and when He suffered on the cross and finished the work. He said "it is finished" And we can rejoice and also say it is finished., and we can rejoice and be so grateful that Jesus was willing to do this for us and loved us that much. That is what we are to think about when we go to communion.
Since Jesus has already saved us we come in a worthy manner and there is no other One who is worthy but Christ. That is why we come with Him as our Savior and can partake worthily. Coming any other way IS unworthy.
I believe and am convinced the more reading I do on how Christians believe here on these forums, that if we truly want to KNOW the meanings of the verses, we are to read and read again and again and read the Bible often.
For years I just followed the rest and came to communion with fear and not joy. I did not come as one who was already saved but as one who had some expectation of judgment. At times I did not partake because I thought I could be zapped in the pew for not asking forgiveness for a specific sin or may have missed one.
That is not how sons come.,that is not how the bride comes. We have already been judged and we are accepted in the Beloved. We come to communion to confirm again that truth and are again renewed and joyful. We come to remember Christ., not our sins., for they are forgiven and forgotten as far as the east is from the west.
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ladylynn
Guest
This is what I was talking about earlier about their words exposing their errors, sometimes ever so subtle. I have heard this mentioned by several others of the hyper grace followers, it's like a recorded message without knowledge of how the Holy Spirit works. They say things like "we have to realize our identity" or "we have to understand our identity" or "we need to know our place in Christ" or "we have to renew our minds".
What is being said over and over by us (as we have been called grace believers) is what God's Word already says about His sons;.,Loved sons., Heirs, Joint heirs.,saints, victors, over comers, sanctified, justified, forgiven, priests, salt., sheep of His flock., blessed, beloved, friends, co-laborers with Christ, fellow workers, and so many more things it would make this post even longer.
But many do not know they are LOVED SONS first and foremost. They see themselves first as learning disciples or servants. or have forgotten that they have been washed already and cleansed. If you identify yourself as un-forgiven., un-worthy, un-clean, un-sure., un-learned, you will not walk as a son., you will identify your self as a lowly weak sinner in need of God's approval... when IN FACT.... YOU ALREADY HAVE IT!!!
Why are we asking God to give us what we already have IN Christ?? Jesus already died on the cross to give us this gift of sonship... why don't we believe it and walk in it? This takes faith and faith is what pleases God. It's not humble to refuse to believe all the good Jesus has done for us. It's not Christ honoring to not honor His sacrifice by living as if we still need to earn it and be good enough for it. He has made us worthy. We really make a major mistake when we try to make ourselves worthy.
It is like "they" think they can take thought and renew their own minds. Or "they" can imagine themselves as righteous in Christ, even though they are wretched, miserable, and naked.
See, you need to know you are a son not wretched, miserable and naked. You are clothed in HIS righteousness. Seeeeeeee The Bible says to renew your mind Eph.4:23-24 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new self who is being RENEWED to a TRUE KNOWLEDGE according to the image of the One who created him.
People, you did not give birth to yourself the first time, and you cannot take thought and give birth to yourself a second time and renew your own mind and declare yourself righteous! Proclaiming yourself as righteous is "self" righteousness.
Again, we are only repeating what God says about us 'already' and renewing our minds in the truth as the Bible tells us too., and repenting (changing our minds) of our own wrong ideas about who HE is and who we are IN Him. And walking accordingly. that is what we are all called to do. He already saved us and now we -walk it out.
2 Cor.5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM. This happened when we received Christ as Savior. We are no longer to be called sinners but saints., not unrighteous but righteous in Him.
Here is what is written, and notice there is no mention of us, that is "we" "ourselves" renewing our own mind.
Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
God won't do the walk of faith for us, He tells us the truth and it is our job as sons that He has already equipped us for to do as He says. How do we renew our minds? How do we put on the mind of Christ? By reading His Word and submitting to the Holy Spirit and by faith believing. We are to take part in the work of obedience of faith., by believing what God already has done for us and in us and to us. But if we don't know who we are because we don't read the Bible and believe the Bible, we will not be renewed in our minds and instead will be old babes in need of milk. Babies walk in our own understanding and are unsure and unable. As I've heard a good preacher say many times., right believing causes right living. If you don't know the truth., it will not set you free.
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sydlit
Guest
Ladylynn,Communion is not a time to remember sin, it is a time to remember Christ.
The confession of sin is for those who do not have Christ yet. Coming to the table 'unworthily' is coming without Christ. We believers have Him 'already'. There are no fearful expectations for the bride. We are to come to communion together as believers often to remember what Christ did for us when He shed His blood and when He suffered on the cross and finished the work. He said "it is finished" And we can rejoice and also say it is finished., and we can rejoice and be so grateful that Jesus was willing to do this for us and loved us that much. That is what we are to think about when we go to communion.
Since Jesus has already saved us we come in a worthy manner and there is no other One who is worthy but Christ. That is why we come with Him as our Savior and can partake worthily. Coming any other way IS unworthy.
I believe and am convinced the more reading I do on how Christians believe here on these forums, that if we truly want to KNOW the meanings of the verses, we are to read and read again and again and read the Bible often.
For years I just followed the rest and came to communion with fear and not joy. I did not come as one who was already saved but as one who had some expectation of judgment. At times I did not partake because I thought I could be zapped in the pew for not asking forgiveness for a specific sin or may have missed one.
That is not how sons come.,that is not how the bride comes. We have already been judged and we are accepted in the Beloved. We come to communion to confirm again that truth and are again renewed and joyful. We come to remember Christ., not our sins., for they are forgiven and forgotten as far as the east is from the west.
This, like many of your posts, is beautifully written.
I often get a 'good feeling' from them,
(for want of a better way of putting it).
And I want to give big Amens, but then I remember that
you are a proponenet of the WoF movement /preachers
and I get conflicted. I wish this weren't so.
It makes me feel like maybe I'm someone who has
'itching ears', just wanting teachers who give me
nice sounding words, but avoiding the tough realities.
Then again, I don't want to 'throw the baby out with
the bathwater'. (sorry, I don't really like that expression).
I've had enough tough realities from the world,
and have experienced more than my share of it even
right on this site by ppl who pretend to be a certain way
with others, yet turn stone-cold-hearted towards me
regarding prayer, forgiveness, compassion, or even
general devoted friendship and communication
God or no God, let alone genuine christian love ...
so maybe I DO just want to believe that in Jesus
all is forgiven and fulfilled, take communion with a
clear conscience and not worry about how others
judge me or misrepresent me to others behind the scenes,
or paint the Lord in a bad light through cold-heartedness.
If I could just get past the whole WoF movement,
and it really grieves me that I get stuck there.
But God bless you and Hallelujah anyhow,
And thank you for the lovely msg on grace and communion.
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ladylynn
Guest
Yeeessshh try as we might, we cannot do it, we cannot "try and make a change". It's been done and we are righteous today if we have accepted Jesus Christ finished work on our behalf. Otherwise we are trying to stand in the place we are already standing? That is very frustrating because your not going anywhere on your own. Basically what you end up doing is riding a stationary bike., working hard and going no where. (did that for many years,lots of good works done in the flesh and not in the Spirit)
No joy, no peace.,no fruits of the Spirit., only a fearful expectation of judgment.
I think that just might be God tugging at you, telling you there is so much more for you........ if you would only let Him give it to you.
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sydlit
Guest
Do you mean by joining WoF movement, or are you just referring to a general sense? Sincerely asking.
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FreeNChrist
Guest
If it helps, there are many here who are not WOF who understand and accept this message of grace. It is not exclusive to the WOF movement by any means.
There are definitely some things that are spoken about the WoF teachings that I don't ascribe too...but mani I do..like healing is one..confession of God's word is another..the fact that we are blessed in Christ to be a blessing to others....certainly there have been excesses which tend to throw a lot of people off...but " The baby thing " comes to mind.
The main thing for me to learn from the WoF teachings is to understand what faith is, how it operates in the spirit realm.. and now to use that faith to believe in the finished work of Christ for us and in the new creation and faith righteousness in Him..
We build on the truths in the Lord from our former brothers and sisters from all past times . We use them to be built up in Christ.
One thing that can get skewed in my opinion in WoF is that they can have faith in their confession...and not necessarily in Christ.....example
Take the truth that "By His stripes we are healed"..2 guys are "confessing" that they are healed by Jesus...outwardly they look the same but there can be a major difference.
1st Guy confesses " By His stripes I am healed "..he says this constantly believing if he says it enough times..it will come...to me this is having faith in "his confessing"
2ng Guy confesses " By His stripes I am healed "..he is saying that because he knows that it is a done deal in Christ..Jesus already has done it by the cross...This guys faith is " in Jesus and in His finished work"
It's a subtle difference but outwardly they are "confessing" the same words but the "true believing" is in the wrong emphasis in the 1st guy.
I hope I am articulating that correctly....
The main thing for me to learn from the WoF teachings is to understand what faith is, how it operates in the spirit realm.. and now to use that faith to believe in the finished work of Christ for us and in the new creation and faith righteousness in Him..
We build on the truths in the Lord from our former brothers and sisters from all past times . We use them to be built up in Christ.
One thing that can get skewed in my opinion in WoF is that they can have faith in their confession...and not necessarily in Christ.....example
Take the truth that "By His stripes we are healed"..2 guys are "confessing" that they are healed by Jesus...outwardly they look the same but there can be a major difference.
1st Guy confesses " By His stripes I am healed "..he says this constantly believing if he says it enough times..it will come...to me this is having faith in "his confessing"
2ng Guy confesses " By His stripes I am healed "..he is saying that because he knows that it is a done deal in Christ..Jesus already has done it by the cross...This guys faith is " in Jesus and in His finished work"
It's a subtle difference but outwardly they are "confessing" the same words but the "true believing" is in the wrong emphasis in the 1st guy.
I hope I am articulating that correctly....
Frankly, I have never experienced this "WoF" so many people seem to be afraid of. But I do like the good things that happened to the people in the Bible who had faith to believe the Word.
I went to one "Word of Faith" church locally, and most of them were struggling financially, just like the rest of us. No one I talked to there told me they "wished for" a Mercedes or anything like that.... but each said they were constantly blessed.
So, I really have no idea what "WoF" is to you. All I was talking about was not to fear allowing God to move in your life..... No matter what others say about the changes you may experience.
Some WoF have more legalism and works-based performance driven aspects then a lot of other types of believers do...but I take the " hay" and spit out the " sticks "......
This is what I was talking about earlier about their words exposing their errors, sometimes ever so subtle. I have heard this mentioned by several others of the hyper grace followers, it's like a recorded message without knowledge of how the Holy Spirit works. They say things like "we have to realize our identity" or "we have to understand our identity" or "we need to know our place in Christ" or "we have to renew our minds".
What is being said over and over by us (as we have been called grace believers) is what God's Word already says about His sons;.,Loved sons., Heirs, Joint heirs.,saints, victors, over comers, sanctified, justified, forgiven, priests, salt., sheep of His flock., blessed, beloved, friends, co-laborers with Christ, fellow workers, and so many more things it would make this post even longer.
But many do not know they are LOVED SONS first and foremost. They see themselves first as learning disciples or servants. or have forgotten that they have been washed already and cleansed. If you identify yourself as un-forgiven., un-worthy, un-clean, un-sure., un-learned, you will not walk as a son., you will identify your self as a lowly weak sinner in need of God's approval... when IN FACT.... YOU ALREADY HAVE IT!!!
Why are we asking God to give us what we already have IN Christ?? Jesus already died on the cross to give us this gift of sonship... why don't we believe it and walk in it? This takes faith and faith is what pleases God. It's not humble to refuse to believe all the good Jesus has done for us. It's not Christ honoring to not honor His sacrifice by living as if we still need to earn it and be good enough for it. He has made us worthy. We really make a major mistake when we try to make ourselves worthy.
It is like "they" think they can take thought and renew their own minds. Or "they" can imagine themselves as righteous in Christ, even though they are wretched, miserable, and naked.
See, you need to know you are a son not wretched, miserable and naked. You are clothed in HIS righteousness. Seeeeeeee The Bible says to renew your mind Eph.4:23-24 and that you be renewed in the spirit of your mind, and put on the new self, which in the likeness of God has been created in righteousness and holiness of the truth.
Colossians 3:10 and have put on the new self who is being RENEWED to a TRUE KNOWLEDGE according to the image of the One who created him.
People, you did not give birth to yourself the first time, and you cannot take thought and give birth to yourself a second time and renew your own mind and declare yourself righteous! Proclaiming yourself as righteous is "self" righteousness.
Again, we are only repeating what God says about us 'already' and renewing our minds in the truth as the Bible tells us too., and repenting (changing our minds) of our own wrong ideas about who HE is and who we are IN Him. And walking accordingly. that is what we are all called to do. He already saved us and now we -walk it out.
2 Cor.5:21 He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, that WE MIGHT BECOME THE RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD IN HIM. This happened when we received Christ as Savior. We are no longer to be called sinners but saints., not unrighteous but righteous in Him.
Here is what is written, and notice there is no mention of us, that is "we" "ourselves" renewing our own mind.
Romans 12:2
And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.
God won't do the walk of faith for us, He tells us the truth and it is our job as sons that He has already equipped us for to do as He says. How do we renew our minds? How do we put on the mind of Christ? By reading His Word and submitting to the Holy Spirit and by faith believing. We are to take part in the work of obedience of faith., by believing what God already has done for us and in us and to us. But if we don't know who we are because we don't read the Bible and believe the Bible, we will not be renewed in our minds and instead will be old babes in need of milk. Babies walk in our own understanding and are unsure and unable. As I've heard a good preacher say many times., right believing causes right living. If you don't know the truth., it will not set you free.
Excellent response LadyLynn! Can't give you rep, must spread it around first. lol