The perfecting of Jesus

[AgeofKnowledge]

I realize that you might have not been calling what I wrote before heresy. But many do, and consider it to be a deviant form of worship and of Christianity.

I do not believe that doctrine is proof against heresy. Only a relationship with God through Jesus by the Spirit is proof against heresy, and even then one will go off the path at times, but God brings them back, stronger in Him than ever before.

I wasn't accusing you of anything friend. I was agreeing with your post but pointing out that sound doctrine is desirable. For example, do you really think a person can get closer to God following the doctrine of David Koresh? I don't. I think it led people away from God and cost some their lives.

The apostles strongly resisted false teachers and warned the elders of the church (specifically in Ephesus) that wolves would come into their midst teaching heresy. Heresy is not a good thing friend. It doesn't move people closer to God. That's what I was pointing out. You're point that the relationship with God is the focus and the goal of life is fine with me.

A proper understanding of God's Word enriches a life in Christ.

Have a great day! Peace and God bless.

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I realize that you might have not been calling what I wrote before heresy. But many do, and consider it to be a deviant form of worship and of Christianity.

I do not believe that doctrine is proof against heresy. Only a relationship with God through Jesus by the Spirit is proof against heresy, and even then one will go off the path at times, but God brings them back, stronger in Him than ever before.

I think that he was saying that heresy will not lead you closer to Jesus. I do not think that you are a heretic, I think that you have seen a particular facet of our faith, one that stands up against bibliolatry and emphasises intimacy with God.. I do not think that Age is saying that you are a heretic. I think that Age has a revelation of a different facet of our faith, one that sees the beauty of how all the pieces fit together so well and finds its own intimacy in that pattern.

 

[VW]

I wasn't accusing you of anything friend. I was agreeing with your post but pointing out that sound doctrine is desirable. For example, do you really think a person can get closer to God following the doctrine of David Koresh? I don't. I think it led people away from God and cost some their lives.

The apostles strongly resisted false teachers and warned the elders of the church (specifically in Ephesus) that wolves would come into their midst teaching heresy. Heresy is not a good thing friend. It doesn't move people closer to God. That's what I was pointing out. You're point that the relationship with God is the focus and the goal of life is fine with me.

A proper understanding of God's Word enriches a life in Christ.

Have a great day! Peace and God bless.

I stepped back and reread and thought about what was being said, and came to the same conclusion.

About David Koresh. I actually grew up in Waco, and my family still lives there. I have seen where the tragedy happened. This I know about this man and those like him. They lead people to see God from afar, and not to get close to Him, and that only the "man" has seen or heard from God. How close to God one is is judged by how close to the "man" they are.

I agree that the bible has been of tremendous advantage to me, as the Spirit has and is still teaching me from it. What I disagree with, which I do not believe you are saying, is that proper doctrine can or should replace a relationship with God through Jesus, and that having correct doctrine cannot save one's soul.

In His grace,
vic

 

[VW]

I think that he was saying that heresy will not lead you closer to Jesus. I do not think that you are a heretic, I think that you have seen a particular facet of our faith, one that stands up against bibliolatry and emphasises intimacy with God.. I do not think that Age is saying that you are a heretic. I think that Age has a revelation of a different facet of our faith, one that sees the beauty of how all the pieces fit together so well and finds its own intimacy in that pattern.

I appreciated that now, and as usual, have to take my foot from my mouth.

Thank you brother, for your steadfastness.
vic

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I think that he was saying that heresy will not lead you closer to Jesus. I do not think that you are a heretic, I think that you have seen a particular facet of our faith, one that stands up against bibliolatry and emphasises intimacy with God.. I do not think that Age is saying that you are a heretic. I think that Age has a revelation of a different facet of our faith, one that sees the beauty of how all the pieces fit together so well and finds its own intimacy in that pattern.

You stated that so BEAUTIFULLY! Cosigned!

 

[charisenexcelcis]

I stepped back and reread and thought about what was being said, and came to the same conclusion.

About David Koresh. I actually grew up in Waco, and my family still lives there. I have seen where the tragedy happened. This I know about this man and those like him. They lead people to see God from afar, and not to get close to Him, and that only the "man" has seen or heard from God. How close to God one is is judged by how close to the "man" they are.

I agree that the bible has been of tremendous advantage to me, as the Spirit has and is still teaching me from it. What I disagree with, which I do not believe you are saying, is that proper doctrine can or should replace a relationship with God through Jesus, and that having correct doctrine cannot save one's soul.

In His grace,
vic

Every true heresy places some man or organization between God and man. David Koresh said that he was the branch of Revelation, who would open up the sealed scroll to bring judgement upon the world. Those who followed him, substituted their relationship with God with their relationship with David Koresh.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

I stepped back and reread and thought about what was being said, and came to the same conclusion.

About David Koresh. I actually grew up in Waco, and my family still lives there. I have seen where the tragedy happened. This I know about this man and those like him. They lead people to see God from afar, and not to get close to Him, and that only the "man" has seen or heard from God. How close to God one is is judged by how close to the "man" they are.

I agree that the bible has been of tremendous advantage to me, as the Spirit has and is still teaching me from it. What I disagree with, which I do not believe you are saying, is that proper doctrine can or should replace a relationship with God through Jesus, and that having correct doctrine cannot save one's soul.

In His grace,
vic

Amen Vic! Well stated.

 

[AgeofKnowledge]

Every true heresy places some man or organization between God and man. David Koresh said that he was the branch of Revelation, who would open up the sealed scroll to bring judgement upon the world. Those who followed him, substituted their relationship with God with their relationship with David Koresh.

That is the truth and what Vic said as well.

 

[VW]

Every true heresy places some man or organization between God and man. David Koresh said that he was the branch of Revelation, who would open up the sealed scroll to bring judgement upon the world. Those who followed him, substituted their relationship with God with their relationship with David Koresh.

I was, at one time, long ago, in a church which became much as the branch davidians. What started as a man with a great revelation of God, and the power of the Spirit, eventually became a cult. When the changes first started to take place, I was disturbed in my spirit. The first changes were oddly enough, a bunch of rules and customs which I could not see as having any place in our worship of Jesus and gathering together in Him and His love. Things like wearing only black pants and white shirts and women dressing a certain way and always having their heads covered.

When I felt the call to start to work in the ministry, I approached this man, and he asked me to write a sermon on some section of scripture. I chose to write on Phil 2, and being like Christ. He had nothing good to say about my work, saying that it did not agree with what he taught.

Well, soon, we found ourselves in a meeting about dissolving the church, doing away with the incorporation papers, and several other things which were even more disturbing. I and my family left this church, after many years of life with them, and within 3 months, those who were left moved away to a small ranch in the far country, and lived alone with each other in seclusion.

I am aware of the danger of deciding that one has heard from God and that no one can tell them any different. It is a distressing possibility, but very real. I don't know what can guard against this falling into self-aggrandizement, but I don't believe that doctrine or biblical knowledge is proof against this. I believe that submission first to God through the Spirit, and then to each other, true submission in love, is the proof against falling.

The devil is very cunning, subtle and wily. He can take anyone unaware, and lead them into delusion, anyone. It should make us think about our present system of doing things, and see the danger inherent in the structure. It is why I encourage each one I know who loves the Lord to seek the Lord Jesus, to know Him in reality, but experiencing Him and His love. And then, through Him, to seek our Father, to enter into a relationship with the almighty God as one of His children. I not only believe that this is essential to our spiritual health, but good for us in ways we could never imagine without having this experience.

Blessings in Jesus Christ,
vic

 

[charisenexcelcis]

The Bible speaks of two or three witnesses. We often use this idea for having more than one scripture to support your view. Jesus spoke of it as witnesses for his ministry, that the Father testified of His validity. (By the way, a great scripture for arguing the trinity.) I believe that we have the testimony of the Holy Spirit, the testimony of scripture, and the testimony of others. Maybe I am missing some. The point is, when something is terribly wrong, such as with the Branch Davidians, you receive the testimony of the Holy spirit, you see that they are twisting or ignoring scripture, and often you have the testimony of those who have been close to the action.

 

[ed]

Ed - It is not always a wise thing to exhort a student who has a zeal for God's word. Remember the words of the Lord are pure words, tried in the fire as silver and purified seven times (Ps 12:6). You have to have the word hid in your heart for it to be tried. This is how God works his word into the life of the believer to be transformed and renewed in the spirit of their mind. One of the best ways to learn doctrine and the word of God (in meekness) is systematically through categories or topics. Learning this way, line upon line and precept upon precept, allows the Holy Spirit to bring doctrine and the words of our Lord back to our remembrance specifically to meet what is needed.

The Holy Spirit will also help us in the application of that word that is needed. The job of the student is to make themselves available to hear the word preached so they can learn humility and submission, to study so that they can show themselves approved and to walk by faith in the word that they have been taught by the Holy Spirit. The student learns the word through men that God has raised up in the church to preach and teach, through their own diligent personal study and through the portion of other members of God's body. Then through the plan of God and the details of life, the student learns to be quickened by the word and to walk in the light of it. As they walk in the light they have fellowship with God, his Son and with other believers who are also walking in the light. Let the student learn, hide the word in his heart and walk by the faith that the word has produced in his heart.

Hi Red,
Thanks for opening up. I am a student. My classroom is my life, in Jesus. The Spirit does bring scripture to me.
I have a real zeal for God's word, Jesus Christ.
Please tell me of an instance in your life, when you were taught by the Holy Spirit or where Jesus manifested himself to you so that you may learn.
I feel sure that witnessing will build up those here who participate.
love
edwin

 

[ed]

I think that it means diverse.

Blessings brother,
vic

Hi Vic,
Thanks , my 2010 budget dictionary did not contain the word.
love
edwinj

 

[ed]

No, I am not projecting anything. I am making a statement, a simple statement which is often ignored, even though it is right there in scripture. Knowing the bible, even if you do not sin, (and I contend that knowing the bible is no proof against sin, because even if one resists the nature, the sin is still in the soul,) is not salvation. Knowing God is salvation, and being in fellowship with Him, through Jesus Christ.

What I am doing is placing the emphasis where it belongs again, on us drawing near to God, and not on doctrinal correctness, or biblical knowledge, or church membership. Nothing saves us but drawing near to God, and nothing keeps us from sin except drawing near to God.

It is in His presence, when we approach Him and humble ourselves before HiLm that we find the truth, because the truth is our God, and not some concept that we can hold in our minds. And Jesus came and did all that He did and went to the cross and died to sin and rose again to righteousness for this one reason, that we could draw near to God in Him.

Yeah, I do praise the Lord, with my very life. I don't hold up a church or a bible or a doctrine before those I testify to, but Jesus Christ, my life.

Blessings,
vic

Hi Vic,
and Luke 12:31 But seek his kingdom and these things will be given to you as well.
love
edwin

 

[pickles]

Every true heresy places some man or organization between God and man. David Koresh said that he was the branch of Revelation, who would open up the sealed scroll to bring judgement upon the world. Those who followed him, substituted their relationship with God with their relationship with David Koresh.

Thankyou Char, I remeber the koresh story as well, and the point you make here is very important.
Some will say that by living in the Holy Spirit leads to such incidents. But what I saw in Koresh, and read in Pauls words as well ,when some took another path, was that these indiviguals sought in others for thier own build up. They lead others to themselves, not Jesus.
It is simple to disern, if one seeks self in teaching others then they are not of Jesus.
Paul pointed this out and if we adhere to this understanding we can avoid such pitfalls.
All is in Jesus, God bless.
pickles

 

[Red33]

Hi Red,
Thanks for opening up. I am a student. My classroom is my life, in Jesus. The Spirit does bring scripture to me.
I have a real zeal for God's word, Jesus Christ.
Please tell me of an instance in your life, when you were taught by the Holy Spirit or where Jesus manifested himself to you so that you may learn.
I feel sure that witnessing will build up those here who participate.
love
edwin

The first and foremost method that God has provided to be taught the word of God, with the help of the Holy Spirit, is through preaching and teaching because we must learn how to hear. This preaching and teaching comes through men that God has raised up for the church. These men did not just get there randomly but where called and went through a process in the plan of God to be tried and tested so that their heart would be rightly related to grace and truth. They are not perfect men but they are godly men who are being perfected and go after the heart of God. We are called to be under these overseers, who labor in the word and doctrine and have been called to serve the body of Christ as a broken vessel poured out through a layed down life (one that gives his life for the sheep). The believer must not only learn how to hear but also learns how to receive grace through humility, through submission and through obedience (in the sight of God) to the word that has been delivered to them by the Holy Spirit through preaching and teaching.

The believer has a holy calling that includes; hearing the preaching and teaching of the word and doctrine, it includes being called to a fellowship of local believers that have the Spirit and assemble themselves for the same purpose (in the sight of God) and includes a joint participation in the work of the ministry that God has given to that local body of believers. This is how we are taught and led by the Holy Spirit, this is how the love of God is comprehended with the saints, this is how we abide in Christ who is the head of the church, this is how God hides us in Christ experientially, this is how we have been ordained to bear fruit that remains and this is the place from where we are sent out in obedience to God's commission to go into all the world and preach the gospel. The Holy Spirit convicts our heart in this manner, teaches us in this manner, leads and guides us in this manner and fills us to be able to accomplish what we have been sent to do as we bear fruit in all the world. As each believer takes up their cross under that manner of living and crucified life before God, Jesus Christ is able to reveal and manifest himself as the head and goes before us in all that we do, making crooked paths straight, binding up the broken hearted, setting the captives free and bringing salvation to the uttermost parts of the earth. God's plan is to make an invisible God visible, through the members of his corporate body who are submitted to Jesus Christ as their head by faith through the word they have been taught being led and guided by the Holy Spirit.

I have all the scriptural references if you want them and would be glad to give them to you.

 

[ed]

Ed - It is not always a wise thing to exhort a student who has a zeal for God's word. Remember the words of the Lord are pure words, tried in the fire as silver and purified seven times (Ps 12:6). You have to have the word hid in your heart for it to be tried. This is how God works his word into the life of the believer to be transformed and renewed in the spirit of their mind. One of the best ways to learn doctrine and the word of God (in meekness) is systematically through categories or topics. Learning this way, line upon line and precept upon precept, allows the Holy Spirit to bring doctrine and the words of our Lord back to our remembrance specifically to meet what is needed.

The Holy Spirit will also help us in the application of that word that is needed. The job of the student is to make themselves available to hear the word preached so they can learn humility and submission, to study so that they can show themselves approved and to walk by faith in the word that they have been taught by the Holy Spirit. The student learns the word through men that God has raised up in the church to preach and teach, through their own diligent personal study and through the portion of other members of God's body. Then through the plan of God and the details of life, the student learns to be quickened by the word and to walk in the light of it. As they walk in the light they have fellowship with God, his Son and with other believers who are also walking in the light. Let the student learn, hide the word in his heart and walk by the faith that the word has produced in his heart.

Hi Red,
I have opened a thread, witnessing, so that you and other members who have the Holy Spirit manifesting in their lives may share these teachings with all those here.
I look forward to your statements on how the Holy Spirit teaches you and hides the word in your heart.
love
ed