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The phony evangelism of Calvinism
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StoneThrower
Guest
[video=youtube;pBB74tt8W14]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pBB74tt8W14[/video]
Hopefully this will clear up any misunderstands on the subject!
Hopefully this will clear up any misunderstands on the subject!
S
StoneThrower
Guest
Personally I don't care what they believe as long as it doesn't cross over into Pelagianism or Open Theism, which is heresy, but I do care when comments are made that show they don't have a clue what they are talking about based on knee jerk emotions or what they think it is. This like many other threads on secondary issues which are just posted to make a stink and cause division.
K
Kerry
Guest
They call them decisions, and if they fail they still count the decision, but tell the person they were never really saved. That they called on the name of the Lord and He didn't listen.
The Very Phony Evangelism of Arminianism
Well, I don't know how you are going to prove that. If Arminianism is by definition non-Christian, you may have a shot at it. I didn't start this thread. To me instead of going on about Calvinists, one should just define the doctrines, true & false. I just change the thread to Arminian as a touché. Now if you will tell me what your -ism is, I can change the title to "The Phony Evangelism of Maxwel Smart."
If you deny being a Calvinist, I have no idea what you mean except that you probably don't believe in some of the TULIP -- maybe you deny it all & think that all our righteousnesses are as unfilthy linen.
But it is a false "gospel" to relegate Christ to the role of "chance-giver," and deny that He actually saves.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
Well, I don't know how you are going to prove that. If Arminianism is by definition non-Christian, you may have a shot at it. I didn't start this thread. To me instead of going on about Calvinists, one should just define the doctrines, true & false. I just change the thread to Arminian as a touché. Now if you will tell me what your -ism is, I can change the title to "The Phony Evangelism of Maxwel Smart."
If you deny being a Calvinist, I have no idea what you mean except that you probably don't believe in some of the TULIP -- maybe you deny it all & think that all our righteousnesses are as unfilthy linen.
But it is a false "gospel" to relegate Christ to the role of "chance-giver," and deny that He actually saves.
Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins.
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K
Kerry
Guest
Just like Jacob Called on His name but, God still called Him Jacob even after changing His name to Israel.
Re: The Very Phony Evangelism of Arminianism
And this is exactly what I mean by "straw man" arguments.
You REDEFINE someone's position, and RECREATE IT into something that is actually NOT what they believe,
and then you attack THAT THING YOU JUST CREATED, instead of their actual position.
This is why I normally stay out of these threads debating Calvinism.
Both sides create straw men, and just beat on each other.... endlessly.. and fruitlessly.
It makes me tired.
Obviously you guys are having fun.
Go for it.
See you all in some other threads.
: )
And this is exactly what I mean by "straw man" arguments.
You REDEFINE someone's position, and RECREATE IT into something that is actually NOT what they believe,
and then you attack THAT THING YOU JUST CREATED, instead of their actual position.
This is why I normally stay out of these threads debating Calvinism.
Both sides create straw men, and just beat on each other.... endlessly.. and fruitlessly.
It makes me tired.
Obviously you guys are having fun.
Go for it.
See you all in some other threads.
: )
K
Kerry
Guest
Re: The Very Phony Evangelism of Arminianism
I meant, Is He the God of Abraham, Issac, and Israel. No He is the God of Abrahm, Issac, and Jacob.. Jacob means liar, and deceiver.
I meant, Is He the God of Abraham, Issac, and Israel. No He is the God of Abrahm, Issac, and Jacob.. Jacob means liar, and deceiver.
Does God owe you an explanation?
Be happy that He chose you.
There is no hole. God does what He does, and it is good, and infinitely better than either of us would have done in His place.
Does God give a reason for having death be the punishment for sin? no, but it is what it is.
Does God give a reason for choosing Jacob instead of Esau? no, but it is what it is.
Does this mean that God did not have a reason? No. God certainly had a reason, but He doesn't need to share it.
S
StoneThrower
Guest
Re: The Very Phony Evangelism of Arminianism
NO ONE every suggested any such thing, in fact I said its a secondary issue. This is why I asked folks to watch the video so they would not make such totally ignorant statements.
God does nothing by chance he made his decisions before the foundation of the world, NO ONE denies he saves either.
NO ONE every suggested any such thing, in fact I said its a secondary issue. This is why I asked folks to watch the video so they would not make such totally ignorant statements.
God does nothing by chance he made his decisions before the foundation of the world, NO ONE denies he saves either.
I am not questioning God but Calvinism.
SolidGround said:
God chose the group Christian. I choose to obey the gospel to become part of that foreknown, pre-chosen group.
Solidground said:
Yes, there is a hole Calvinism that Cavlinism cannot explain. Above, all you can says is "God does what He does" but cannot explain why.
Solidground said:
God does give a reason for why men are saved or lost. OBEDIENCE. The bible cannot be more clear those that choose to obey will be saved Heb 5:9 and those that obey not will be lost, 2 Thess 1:8. Calvinism will not accept that and therefore remains in the dark and cannot explain the basis as to why some are saved, others lost.
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Yes, it HAS to be ME in it somewhere, else God is unfair and there's nothing for us in ourselves to boast in. The scary thing about this is that it's just not an "alternate" view, its an attitude which hinders sinners to come to the knowledge of the truth. A goofy theology that keeps people looking to their own selves or the law, but not looking to Christ.
Re: The Very Phony Evangelism of Arminianism
That's my point.
You have no idea what people with an opposing view even really believe...
and yet you tear into them, viciously, as if you do.
Calvinists often take a broad brush, and just label EVERYONE who isn't one of them as an Arminian.
It reminds me of an old farmer I once met.
Every time he met a short brown person, he called the person a Mexican.
Yep.
People from Cuba, Argentina, Philippines... he just called them all Mexicans.
And do you know what the result was?
He was just showing his ignorance.
All of those people just thought he was an ignorant fool.
Some Calvinists do the same thing with the label of "Arminian".
They use it indiscriminately, and without any thought at all.
And as you just admitted...
if someone is NOT a Calvinist, you really have no idea what they really believe.
Well... maybe you should find out before tearing into them?
Before I started debating the topic of Calvinism, I tried to AT LEAST learn about the other position, and learn how to discuss it respectfully.
And after much study of Calvinism, this is my conclusion:
Although some Calvinists are completely obnoxious (as are some people in the opposing camp) I would NEVER call Calvinists heretics, or say they aren't my brothers and sisters in Christ. I strongly disagree with Calvinism, but Calvinists are my brothers and sisters, and I think I can spend my time more wisely than using it to beat my own brothers and sisters into a bloody pulp.
Really.
D. James Kennedy strongly disagrees with MY point of view, but as strongly as he disagrees, I've heard him discuss my position very respectfully, as a brother in Christ.
I think we can do better guys.
I really do.
That's my point.
You have no idea what people with an opposing view even really believe...
and yet you tear into them, viciously, as if you do.
Calvinists often take a broad brush, and just label EVERYONE who isn't one of them as an Arminian.
It reminds me of an old farmer I once met.
Every time he met a short brown person, he called the person a Mexican.
Yep.
People from Cuba, Argentina, Philippines... he just called them all Mexicans.
And do you know what the result was?
He was just showing his ignorance.
All of those people just thought he was an ignorant fool.
Some Calvinists do the same thing with the label of "Arminian".
They use it indiscriminately, and without any thought at all.
And as you just admitted...
if someone is NOT a Calvinist, you really have no idea what they really believe.
Well... maybe you should find out before tearing into them?
Before I started debating the topic of Calvinism, I tried to AT LEAST learn about the other position, and learn how to discuss it respectfully.
And after much study of Calvinism, this is my conclusion:
Although some Calvinists are completely obnoxious (as are some people in the opposing camp) I would NEVER call Calvinists heretics, or say they aren't my brothers and sisters in Christ. I strongly disagree with Calvinism, but Calvinists are my brothers and sisters, and I think I can spend my time more wisely than using it to beat my own brothers and sisters into a bloody pulp.
Really.
D. James Kennedy strongly disagrees with MY point of view, but as strongly as he disagrees, I've heard him discuss my position very respectfully, as a brother in Christ.
I think we can do better guys.
I really do.
Re: The Very Phony Evangelism of Arminianism
Well, if I tore into you, please backquote it, as I don't recall tearing into you.
Neither do I recall calling you an Arminian.
If I find that I "tore into you," I shall be happy to apologize.
I wish you the best.
But it remains true that
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."
Anyone who has reduced the Savior to a "chance-giver," is urged to trust Him as Savior.
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
Well, if I tore into you, please backquote it, as I don't recall tearing into you.
Neither do I recall calling you an Arminian.
If I find that I "tore into you," I shall be happy to apologize.
I wish you the best.
But it remains true that
"Thou shalt call His name Jesus, for He shall save His people from their sins."
Anyone who has reduced the Savior to a "chance-giver," is urged to trust Him as Savior.
"I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish."
The phony evangelism of the "Chance-Givers"
Do you claim that the Lord is not omniscient, and could know a group without knowing the persons in the group? Individuals were chosen, as Rom 16 tells us:
"Salute Rufus the chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine."
Your verse references do not support your theories, Seabass. Salvation is not human works. "For by grace you are having been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast."
The only obedience that saves is obedience to this command:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved."
Now when will you do that?
When will you obey that command?
When will you repent of diminishing the Savior to a chance-giver?
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
Do you claim that the Lord is not omniscient, and could know a group without knowing the persons in the group? Individuals were chosen, as Rom 16 tells us:
"Salute Rufus the chosen in the Lord, and his mother and mine."
Your verse references do not support your theories, Seabass. Salvation is not human works. "For by grace you are having been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, not of works lest anyone should boast."
The only obedience that saves is obedience to this command:
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved."
Now when will you do that?
When will you obey that command?
When will you repent of diminishing the Savior to a chance-giver?
Thou shalt call His name Jesus,
for He shall save His people from their sins.
Re: The phony evangelism of the "Chance-Givers"
God foreknows who would and would not be in the group, but God did not predetermine it but let men choose for themselves. Since men choose for themselves then man is responsible and at fault if he is not in the group. If God predetermined it then God is responsible and at fault for a man not being in the group.
The group Christian is chosen and in the Lord and since Rufus chose to be a Christian therefore he was part of the chosen who are in the Lord.
1 Pet 2:9 But ye (group Christian) are a chosen generation
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us (group Christan) in him before the foundation of the world
2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
How are people chosen? Randomly before the world began or for some unknown reason? No. People are chosen CONDITIONALLY to salvation by sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. This underlined part sound familiar?
Jn 3:5--------------spirit++++++++++++born of water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13-------spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
1Thess 2:13------spirit++++++++++belief of truth>>>>>>>>>>>salvation - chosen
So one becomes part of the chosen group, the saved by submitting to water baptism then are adding to the group/the church/the kingdom/the body of Christ, Acts 2:47
---------------
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
2 Thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
One must go to great effort to purposely misunderstand the simplicity of these two verses.
Christ saves those that obey Him and God has vengeance upon those that obey not the gospel of Christ.
One verse does not trump other verses,
Since Christ saves those that obey, and those that believe are saved then that can only mean belief is a form of obedience, an obedient work. Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. "Believeth" is contrasted to "obeyeth not" again meaning believing is an obedient work.
God foreknows who would and would not be in the group, but God did not predetermine it but let men choose for themselves. Since men choose for themselves then man is responsible and at fault if he is not in the group. If God predetermined it then God is responsible and at fault for a man not being in the group.
The group Christian is chosen and in the Lord and since Rufus chose to be a Christian therefore he was part of the chosen who are in the Lord.
1 Pet 2:9 But ye (group Christian) are a chosen generation
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us (group Christan) in him before the foundation of the world
2 Thess 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
How are people chosen? Randomly before the world began or for some unknown reason? No. People are chosen CONDITIONALLY to salvation by sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth. This underlined part sound familiar?
Jn 3:5--------------spirit++++++++++++born of water>>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13-------spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
1Thess 2:13------spirit++++++++++belief of truth>>>>>>>>>>>salvation - chosen
So one becomes part of the chosen group, the saved by submitting to water baptism then are adding to the group/the church/the kingdom/the body of Christ, Acts 2:47
---------------
Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;
2 Thess 1:8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
One must go to great effort to purposely misunderstand the simplicity of these two verses.
Christ saves those that obey Him and God has vengeance upon those that obey not the gospel of Christ.
One verse does not trump other verses,
Since Christ saves those that obey, and those that believe are saved then that can only mean belief is a form of obedience, an obedient work. Jn 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. "Believeth" is contrasted to "obeyeth not" again meaning believing is an obedient work.
Re: The phony evangelism of the "Chance-Givers"
Well, Seabass, that is all your word. I prefer God's word.
For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8 clearly refers to all individuals in each category, using a plural word, not a collective singular "group" word.
All who were foreknown were foreordained.
All who were foreordained were called.
All who were called were justified.
All who were justified were glorified.
The plural words imply individuals.
That is what you say, but the word says that the individual name Rufus was chosen.
Now Seabass, I will congratulate you on actually quoting scripture this time!
Wrong. It is not merely a group (singular word), but ye, which is a plural pronoun and must refer to individuals.
Wrong again. The word "group" does not occur. It is not just a group (singular collective) chosen, it is us, a plural pronoun which must refer to individuals.
Again the pronoun "you" (as always in the KJV), is plural and must refer to individuals.
You quote 2 Thes 2:13 first using "through," then you change it to "by." But in Greek the preposition is ἐν = in, which might be interpreted a number of ways. Who is it that does the sanctification? It looks like the Holy Spirit did it to me. Does this mean that the Spirit set aside the chosen people and determined that they would believe because to them it would be "given . . . to believe?"
It says nothing about people chosen conditionally; it says they were chosen to salvation. They were chosen from the beginning, long before they would believe. The interpetation of "in [ ἐν]" before the word "sanctification," could be of different private interpretations. In other words, the preposition en is capable of different meanings, so that just on the basis of this verse alone (private) it would be hard to dogmatize on what it means. To me it makes sense as God having chosen his elect, set them apart by His Spirit, and determined that He would give them the gift of faith (to you it is given . . . to believe).
You cannot prove anything conditional about the choosing here from this verse. I can see how different Christians might take it differently.
ASV"
"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in [ ἐν] sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
The text says absolutely nothing about condition, neither does it say, "random."
Jn 3:5--------------spirit++++++++++++born of water [sic; deceitful!] >>>>in the kingdom
[born of water+++Spirit++++++++++++++++++++++++++++in the kingdom]
1Cor 12:13-------spirit++++[sic]+++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
1Thess 2:13------spirit++++++++++belief of truth>>>>>>>>>salvation - chosen [sic bogus]
Again, your parallelism is bogus; you changed the words around! You particularly butchered 1 Th 3
Jn 3:5 -born of water++++++Spirit+++++++++++++++in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13-[no water!]-------------Spirit-baptized>>>>>>>in the body
1 Th 2:13 has chosen --- salvation --- Spirit --- belief
Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom
For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body,
No water in 1 Cor 12:13.
No baptism in John 3.
The Word of God says no such thing. Water baptism never saves in the Bible.
The choosing happened long ago, "from the beginning." Acts 2:47 says not such thing.
---------------
This salvation is eternal, not something that comes & goes. And the only obedience that saves is obeying:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
Obey this gospel or beware of the flaming fire!
So if you have not obeyed that command, but have lowered Christ to a mere chance-giver, repent & trust Him as only & sufficient Savior.
No scripture is of private interpretation. Since salvation is offered men over & over simply for believing, the odd verses must be understood in that context.
Believe is a command to obey. But it is not a work; Faith is the opposite pole of works. "For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works." Faith is resting in the Savior and depending on Him to do the saving.
False; for scripture is crystal clear that human works do not save. The only command to obey to be saved is the command to believe:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved -- no ifs, ands, or buts.
[/QUOTE]
Well, Seabass, that is all your word. I prefer God's word.
For whom he foreknew, he also foreordained to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren: and whom he foreordained, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
Rom 8 clearly refers to all individuals in each category, using a plural word, not a collective singular "group" word.
All who were foreknown were foreordained.
All who were foreordained were called.
All who were called were justified.
All who were justified were glorified.
The plural words imply individuals.
That is what you say, but the word says that the individual name Rufus was chosen.
Now Seabass, I will congratulate you on actually quoting scripture this time!
Wrong. It is not merely a group (singular word), but ye, which is a plural pronoun and must refer to individuals.
Wrong again. The word "group" does not occur. It is not just a group (singular collective) chosen, it is us, a plural pronoun which must refer to individuals.
Again the pronoun "you" (as always in the KJV), is plural and must refer to individuals.
You quote 2 Thes 2:13 first using "through," then you change it to "by." But in Greek the preposition is ἐν = in, which might be interpreted a number of ways. Who is it that does the sanctification? It looks like the Holy Spirit did it to me. Does this mean that the Spirit set aside the chosen people and determined that they would believe because to them it would be "given . . . to believe?"
It says nothing about people chosen conditionally; it says they were chosen to salvation. They were chosen from the beginning, long before they would believe. The interpetation of "in [ ἐν]" before the word "sanctification," could be of different private interpretations. In other words, the preposition en is capable of different meanings, so that just on the basis of this verse alone (private) it would be hard to dogmatize on what it means. To me it makes sense as God having chosen his elect, set them apart by His Spirit, and determined that He would give them the gift of faith (to you it is given . . . to believe).
You cannot prove anything conditional about the choosing here from this verse. I can see how different Christians might take it differently.
ASV"
"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in [ ἐν] sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
The text says absolutely nothing about condition, neither does it say, "random."
Jn 3:5--------------spirit++++++++++++born of water [sic; deceitful!] >>>>in the kingdom
[born of water+++Spirit++++++++++++++++++++++++++++in the kingdom]
1Cor 12:13-------spirit++++[sic]+++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
1Thess 2:13------spirit++++++++++belief of truth>>>>>>>>>salvation - chosen [sic bogus]
Again, your parallelism is bogus; you changed the words around! You particularly butchered 1 Th 3
Jn 3:5 -born of water++++++Spirit+++++++++++++++in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13-[no water!]-------------Spirit-baptized>>>>>>>in the body
1 Th 2:13 has chosen --- salvation --- Spirit --- belief
Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom
For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body,
No water in 1 Cor 12:13.
No baptism in John 3.
The Word of God says no such thing. Water baptism never saves in the Bible.
The choosing happened long ago, "from the beginning." Acts 2:47 says not such thing.
---------------
This salvation is eternal, not something that comes & goes. And the only obedience that saves is obeying:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you shall be saved.
Obey this gospel or beware of the flaming fire!
So if you have not obeyed that command, but have lowered Christ to a mere chance-giver, repent & trust Him as only & sufficient Savior.
No scripture is of private interpretation. Since salvation is offered men over & over simply for believing, the odd verses must be understood in that context.
Believe is a command to obey. But it is not a work; Faith is the opposite pole of works. "For by grace you have been saved through faith . . . not of works." Faith is resting in the Savior and depending on Him to do the saving.
False; for scripture is crystal clear that human works do not save. The only command to obey to be saved is the command to believe:
Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ & you shall be saved -- no ifs, ands, or buts.
[/QUOTE]
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Re: The phony evangelism of the "Chance-Givers"
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The "for" is an explanatory preposition giving explanation to verse 28. In verse 28, it speaks of "them that love the Lord" and "the called". It is Gods purpose that one be saved by obeying the gospel. These two phases refers to the group "Christian" - them that love/obeyed God, Jn 14:15, them that have answered the gospel call. The plural "whom" of verse 29 refers to this group, the ones that have CONDITIONALLY obeyed/loved God, answered the gospel call.
From this text and the on in Eph 1:1-5 we can see that God:
1-foreknew where salvation would be - in Christ
2-foreknew the terms of salvation - belief repentance confession and baptism
3-foreknew the type of character - image of Christ
4-foreknew the group would be holy and without blame
5-foreknew those in the group would be called - sons of God
6-foreknew the work those in this group would do - good works Eph 2:10
Nowhere in any of this does it say God foreknew certain individuals unconditionally apart from the 6 things listed above.
Where does the context say Rufus was chosen unconditionally as an individual separate and apart from the group?
Peter is addressing the group Christian.
Plural refers to a group.
Jn 3:5--------------spirit++++++++++++born of water >>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13-------spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
1Thess 2:13------spirit++++++++++belief of truth>>>>>>>>>salvation - chosen
You call it "bogus" simply because it does not fit your personal ideas about salvation, but the harmony is there among all those verses since the bible does not contradict itself.
You claim water is not in Jn 3 or 1 Cor 12:13 but it is clearly there "born of water" of Jn 3:5 = "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13.
"Agian, 2 Thess 2:13 says because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
It does NOT say "chosen you to salvation by a random choice God made before the world began." Being of the chosen is cond-tional upon sanctification and belief of the truth therefore no individual can be part of the chosen unconditionally being unsanctified and in unbelief.
Jn 3:16 does not trump or remove nor negate Heb 5:9 that teaches Christ saves those that obey. The implication is belief is a form of obedient work, Jn 6:27-29. If belief has no works then it is dead.
God has vengeance upon those that OBEY NOT. The bible cannot be any more clean and plain that obedience or lack thereof is the reason people will be saved or lost and salvation is not based upon some random, unconditional decision God made before the world began and then forcing that random decision upon man against his will
Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
Rom 8:29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
The "for" is an explanatory preposition giving explanation to verse 28. In verse 28, it speaks of "them that love the Lord" and "the called". It is Gods purpose that one be saved by obeying the gospel. These two phases refers to the group "Christian" - them that love/obeyed God, Jn 14:15, them that have answered the gospel call. The plural "whom" of verse 29 refers to this group, the ones that have CONDITIONALLY obeyed/loved God, answered the gospel call.
From this text and the on in Eph 1:1-5 we can see that God:
1-foreknew where salvation would be - in Christ
2-foreknew the terms of salvation - belief repentance confession and baptism
3-foreknew the type of character - image of Christ
4-foreknew the group would be holy and without blame
5-foreknew those in the group would be called - sons of God
6-foreknew the work those in this group would do - good works Eph 2:10
Nowhere in any of this does it say God foreknew certain individuals unconditionally apart from the 6 things listed above.
Atwood said:
Where does the context say Rufus was chosen unconditionally as an individual separate and apart from the group?
Atwood said:
Peter is addressing the group Christian.
In EPh 1 Paul is addressing the group Christian, "Saints", the "faithful in Christ" verse 1 using the pronoun "us"atwood said:
Atwood said:
Plural refers to a group.
Atwood said:
Atwood said:
Jn 3:5--------------spirit++++++++++++born of water >>>>>>>>>in the kingdom
1Cor 12:13-------spirit+++++++++++++baptized>>>>>>>>>>>>in the body
1Thess 2:13------spirit++++++++++belief of truth>>>>>>>>>salvation - chosen
You call it "bogus" simply because it does not fit your personal ideas about salvation, but the harmony is there among all those verses since the bible does not contradict itself.
You claim water is not in Jn 3 or 1 Cor 12:13 but it is clearly there "born of water" of Jn 3:5 = "baptized" of 1 Cor 12:13.
"Agian, 2 Thess 2:13 says because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:"
It does NOT say "chosen you to salvation by a random choice God made before the world began." Being of the chosen is cond-tional upon sanctification and belief of the truth therefore no individual can be part of the chosen unconditionally being unsanctified and in unbelief.
Jn 3:16 does not trump or remove nor negate Heb 5:9 that teaches Christ saves those that obey. The implication is belief is a form of obedient work, Jn 6:27-29. If belief has no works then it is dead.
God has vengeance upon those that OBEY NOT. The bible cannot be any more clean and plain that obedience or lack thereof is the reason people will be saved or lost and salvation is not based upon some random, unconditional decision God made before the world began and then forcing that random decision upon man against his will
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