1 John 5:7, KJV: "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."
The Power Of God
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Hello @IlovelivingforJesus, here's a comparison of the KJV's v7 with the NASB's v7 (both with a little context). The difference is stunning (principally because of what the AV includes that most other translations do not).
I've also included the notes from the KJV Bible Commentary just below the Bible passages and was surprised to see how strong of a stance they took against the KJV's wording of v7. I read where some believe the v7 additional words to be sound based upon the "obvious" referral to the Trinity in v6. What say you
God bless you!
~Deut
I've also included the notes from the KJV Bible Commentary just below the Bible passages and was surprised to see how strong of a stance they took against the KJV's wording of v7. I read where some believe the v7 additional words to be sound based upon the "obvious" referral to the Trinity in v6. What say you
1 John 5 KJV
5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.
7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.
1 John 5 NASB
5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
KJV Bible Commentary
1 John 5:6–8. John now gives a description of Jesus Christ as he that came by water and blood. No one knows (now) exactly what John had in mind when he used these two symbols. Tertullian’s guess seems to fit the facts best: the water is a reference to His baptism or inauguration, where the Voice from heaven declared, “This is my beloved Son,” and established that Jesus was the Christ. The blood is a common symbol for His death, where there were also supernatural miracles to cause even the confirmed and cruel Roman centurion to realize that this man (Jesus) was more than a mere man (Mt 27:54); also, by the Resurrection, the Father confirmed Jesus as the Son of God (Rom 1:4). This interpretation also fits the facts concerning the gnostic-type beliefs of Cerinthus who taught that the Christ came upon Jesus at the baptism but left Him before the Cross; John could have been refuting some such heresy. It is interesting that John called attention to the water, and the blood which came from the side of Jesus on the cross (Jn 19:34–35). At any rate, these were important symbols or witnesses to the deity of Christ in John’s mind. He also adds a third witness, the indwelling Spirit. Thus, according to John’s count here, there are three that bear record. The rest of verse 7 and the first nine words of verse 8 are not original, and are not to be considered as a part of the Word of God (refer to the marginal notes in any reference Bible). John’s three witnesses then are: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. Agree in one is an idiom which is properly translated simply, agree. Only two or three witnesses were needed to establish the truth of a fact (Deut 19:15; Jn 8:17). ~Hindson, E. E., & Kroll, W. M. (Eds.). (1994). KJV Bible Commentary (p. 2638).
God bless you!
~Deut
My post was simply to show and share the love of God. Have A blessed day.
Hello @IlovelivingforJesus, here's a comparison of the KJV's v7 with the NASB's v7 (both with a little context). The difference is stunning (principally because of what the AV includes that most other translations do not).
I've also included the notes from the KJV Bible Commentary just below the Bible passages and was surprised to see how strong of a stance they took against the KJV's wording of v7. I read where some believe the v7 additional words to be sound based upon the "obvious" referral to the Trinity in v6. What say you
...
God bless you!
~Deut
Yes. It would seem that weight of evidence is that it should not be there. But usually these things are settled by its wording, or concept, in other parts of scripture. And then we can still study to discover what the impact of leaving this verse out will be. I find no impact. Anybody with a good argument why verse 7 should be in the Canon? It was missing from just about all the manuscripts.
You meant it for good, but God may use it for more good. Let's see what other's say. This may be a case where you were actually inspired to bring this up.
God bless.
Hello @IlovelivingforJesus, here's a comparison of the KJV's v7 with the NASB's v7 (both with a little context). The difference is stunning (principally because of what the AV includes that most other translations do not).
I've also included the notes from the KJV Bible Commentary just below the Bible passages and was surprised to see how strong of a stance they took against the KJV's wording of v7. I read where some believe the v7 additional words to be sound based upon the "obvious" referral to the Trinity in v6. What say you
1 John 5 KJV5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth.7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one.8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.1 John 5 NASB5 Who is the one who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?6 This is the One who came by water and blood, Jesus Christ; not with the water only, but with the water and with the blood. It is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.7 For there are three that testify:8 the Spirit and the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.
KJV Bible Commentary1 John 5:6–8. John now gives a description of Jesus Christ as he that came by water and blood. No one knows (now) exactly what John had in mind when he used these two symbols. Tertullian’s guess seems to fit the facts best: the water is a reference to His baptism or inauguration, where the Voice from heaven declared, “This is my beloved Son,” and established that Jesus was the Christ. The blood is a common symbol for His death, where there were also supernatural miracles to cause even the confirmed and cruel Roman centurion to realize that this man (Jesus) was more than a mere man (Mt 27:54); also, by the Resurrection, the Father confirmed Jesus as the Son of God (Rom 1:4). This interpretation also fits the facts concerning the gnostic-type beliefs of Cerinthus who taught that the Christ came upon Jesus at the baptism but left Him before the Cross; John could have been refuting some such heresy. It is interesting that John called attention to the water, and the blood which came from the side of Jesus on the cross (Jn 19:34–35). At any rate, these were important symbols or witnesses to the deity of Christ in John’s mind. He also adds a third witness, the indwelling Spirit. Thus, according to John’s count here, there are three that bear record. The rest of verse 7 and the first nine words of verse 8 are not original, and are not to be considered as a part of the Word of God (refer to the marginal notes in any reference Bible). John’s three witnesses then are: the spirit, and the water, and the blood: and the three agree in one. Agree in one is an idiom which is properly translated simply, agree. Only two or three witnesses were needed to establish the truth of a fact (Deut 19:15; Jn 8:17). ~Hindson, E. E., & Kroll, W. M. (Eds.). (1994). KJV Bible Commentary (p. 2638).
God bless you!
~Deut
I would offer the bible uses two witnesses, of men and of God. . . the law and the prophets .
That of men seen the temporal and the unseen spiritual things of God. Water and blood to represent flesh and blood the things seen mixed with the unseen the faith of Christ that worked in the flesh and blood of the Son of man, Jesus . Mixed together they make the one witness of God. The father and Son. Apart from the unseen Spirit . Jesus said his flesh profits for zero, .. The key is mixing faith in what we do hear or see.. .the gospel( Hebrew 4:1-4)
Then we can rest from our own work as did Jesus. Being yoked with the unseen power of God who does work in us to both will and do His good pleasure.
2 Corinthians 4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.
The proper prescription for rightly dividing must be used. If we are to enter his reast making our burden lighter . .
The witness of God shown as a demonstration of the unseen by the witness of men
Thanks for the response, God is so good and his power is astonishing how he can change A life, erase our sins and make us brand new all with his power. I love him so much and people. My life is so different now that I know God and his word i'm so thankful to know the real truth. Real truth has love everlasting.
Hello Corban, the only negative "impact" I can think of personally has been in witnessing to JW's (who still use the KJV, BTW, along with their own, radical, "translation", called the New World Translation/NWT
). They've been given extensive training about witnessing to Christians regarding the doctrine of the Trinity, and I believe it is their greatest hope that we will refer to 1 John 5:7-8 as proof of the Trinity, since they are well-aware of the fact that the additional words are not found in any of the earlier Greek manuscripts. However, as long as we know some of the other verses and passages that demonstrate the existence of both our Trinitarian Godhead and the Deity of Christ, we should be good to go.
Outside of that, the impact is minimal, I think, just like all of the additional words at the end of Mark 16 are, though the additional passage there is not specific to the KJV. So, be it 1 John 5:7-8 or Mark 16:9-20, nothing vital to the faith is either gained or lost by the inclusion (or the exclusion) of the additional words in those passages (though I do think it is important for us to know the facts, even if we do not like what the facts seem to say).
God bless you!
~Deut
Hello Corban, the only negative "impact" I can think of personally has been in witnessing to JW's (who still use the KJV, BTW, along with their own, radical, "translation", called the New World Translation/NWT
They've been given extensive training about witnessing to Christians regarding the doctrine of the Trinity, and I believe it is their greatest hope that we will refer to 1 John 5:7-8 as proof of the Trinity, since they are well-aware of the fact that the additional words are not found in any of the earlier Greek manuscripts. However, as long as we know some of the other verses and passages that demonstrate the existence of both our Trinitarian Godhead and the Deity of Christ, we should be good to go.
Outside of that, the impact is minimal, I think, just like all of the additional words at the end of Mark 16 are, though the additional passage there is not specific to the KJV. So, be it 1 John 5:7-8 or Mark 16:9-20, nothing vital to the faith is either gained or lost by the inclusion (or the exclusion) of the additional words in those passages (though I do think it is important for us to know the facts, even if we do not like what the facts seem to say).
God bless you!
~Deut
Thanks for the response. I mostly agree with you. We could discuss about Mark 16, but you are right. The verses under discussion in this thread bear no impact on any grand truth. We could trash the JWs doctrine with the first verse of the Bible. Elohim is plural, but "created" is singular.
You go well too, and in God's favor.