"The Practical Beginning Of...

[GRACE_ambassador]

...The Body Of Christ

The positional beginning of the Body of Christ took place in the
Mind of God before time began (Eph. 3:9; II Tim. 1:9). The Body
of Christ itself remained a secret hidden from man until, in His
Own time, God Initiated the Dispensation of Grace and revealed
its message to the Apostle Paul. This was the practical beginning
of the Church, which is Christ’s Body.



In order to “rightly divide The Word of Truth” (II Tim. 2:15), we must
know when the Dispensation of Grace began in order to determine
which part of the Bible directly applies to the present dispensation,
the Body of Christ, and which pertains to Israel and God’s covenant
promises. Here, we will be looking at Evidence from Scripture that
indicates when God Interrupted the prophesied Kingdom program
and Began The Dispensation of Grace...
"
(E Bedore)
The Practical Beginning Of The Body Of Christ (I)
The Practical Beginning Of The Body Of Christ (II)

Grace, Peace, And JOY!

 

[Jocund]

Jesus' comment to Peter, the last supper, and ultimately the crucifixion were key points in the starting of the modern conception of the Church, not solely at the moment of Paul's dispensation unto the Ephesians and Colossians.

Acts 7:38 also points to the existence of the Church in the OT.

What you are proposing is a false doctrine.

 

[Evmur]

...The Body Of Christ

The positional beginning of the Body of Christ took place in the
Mind of God before time began (Eph. 3:9; II Tim. 1:9). The Body
of Christ itself remained a secret hidden from man until, in His
Own time, God Initiated the Dispensation of Grace and revealed
its message to the Apostle Paul. This was the practical beginning
of the Church, which is Christ’s Body.

View attachment 244379

In order to “rightly divide The Word of Truth” (II Tim. 2:15), we must
know when the Dispensation of Grace began in order to determine
which part of the Bible directly applies to the present dispensation,
the Body of Christ, and which pertains to Israel and God’s covenant
promises. Here, we will be looking at Evidence from Scripture that
indicates when God Interrupted the prophesied Kingdom program
and Began The Dispensation of Grace...
"
(E Bedore)
The Practical Beginning Of The Body Of Christ (I)
The Practical Beginning Of The Body Of Christ (II)

Grace, Peace, And JOY!

I will say that the change happened at the cross but only fully understood by Paul ... he had the revelation.

 

[Jocund]

I will say that the change happened at the cross but only fully understood by Paul ... he had the revelation.

Many people had revelations, each were pertinent to their respective missions. Paul wasn't even the first to reach out to the non-Jewish world. Did the Great Commission mean nothing?

 

[Evmur]

Many people had revelations, each were pertinent to their respective missions. Paul wasn't even the first to reach out to the non-Jewish world. Did the Great Commission mean nothing?

never the less Paul was appointed by God to take the gospel to the Gentiles, this division of labour, Paul to the Gentiles, the Jerusalem crowd to the circumcision was fully endorsed at the great conference at Jerusalem.

 

[awelight]

...The Body Of Christ

The positional beginning of the Body of Christ took place in the
Mind of God before time began (Eph. 3:9; II Tim. 1:9). The Body
of Christ itself remained a secret hidden from man until, in His
Own time, God Initiated the Dispensation of Grace and revealed
its message to the Apostle Paul. This was the practical beginning
of the Church, which is Christ’s Body.

View attachment 244379

In order to “rightly divide The Word of Truth” (II Tim. 2:15), we must
know when the Dispensation of Grace began in order to determine
which part of the Bible directly applies to the present dispensation,
the Body of Christ, and which pertains to Israel and God’s covenant
promises. Here, we will be looking at Evidence from Scripture that
indicates when God Interrupted the prophesied Kingdom program
and Began The Dispensation of Grace...
"
(E Bedore)
The Practical Beginning Of The Body Of Christ (I)
The Practical Beginning Of The Body Of Christ (II)

Grace, Peace, And JOY!

That's an interesting thought. However, it seems to fly in the face of a couple of key facts.

First, the proclamation about the church/assembly that Christ is going to build was made to the original disciples.

Mat_16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

Because of Simon's previous declaration, Jesus responded with the above statement. Jesus changes Simon's name to Peter - which in the Greek text is: Petros, meaning "a small stone". Christ declares that upon this rock - meaning Himself, He will build His church.

Additionally, while still on Jewish ground, Jesus explained the rules of for the church on how to deal with a sinning brother.

Mat 18:17 And if he refuse to hear them, tell it unto the church: and if he refuse to hear the church also, let him be unto thee as the Gentile and the publican.

The Holy Spirit is sent on the day of Pentecost to empower the young church, which was primarily made up of Jewish believers.

So it would seem this question must be asked: Would not the original disciples of Christ, except Judas, already be the first true members of the church?

 

[Jocund]

never the less Paul was appointed by God to take the gospel to the Gentiles, this division of labour, Paul to the Gentiles, the Jerusalem crowd to the circumcision was fully endorsed at the great conference at Jerusalem.

Paul had a specific aspect of his mission that pertained to nonJews of the time, but that wouldn't be to say that his mission didn't include nonChristian Jews, and that wouldn't be to say that Paul would be the only one spreading the word to nonJews. The Great Commission tells us that he wasn't the first and wasn't the only messenger to the nonJewish world.

If we look at Paul's specific role, he was correcting and realigning the way that the message was being cast to the world by Christians of that time. Particularly in cases like his rebuke of Peter.

His division of labour wasn't exclusive to Gentiles.

 

[Evmur]

Paul had a specific aspect of his mission that pertained to nonJews of the time, but that wouldn't be to say that his mission didn't include nonChristian Jews, and that wouldn't be to say that Paul would be the only one spreading the word to nonJews. The Great Commission tells us that he wasn't the first and wasn't the only messenger to the nonJewish world.

If we look at Paul's specific role, he was correcting and realigning the way that the message was being cast to the world by Christians of that time. Particularly in cases like his rebuke of Peter.

His division of labour wasn't exclusive to Gentiles.

I do not argue for 2 gospels, there is but one. What was different was how this gospel applies to folk to whom God had never revealed Himself and to whom the law was never given. This is why it was necessary for Paul to magnify grace through the gift of faith as opposed to the works of the law as the way of righteousness.

The Jews were pickled in the law.

But the Jews did not see that they were to be diminished and the church was to be planted in the heathen nations ... this was beyond the ability of the Jews to understand. It was revealed to Paul. His commission was to reveal "Christ IN YOU the hope of glory"

This is the famous mystery hidden from past generations but now revealed [by Paul] to the apostles and prophets [at the Jerusalem conference]

 

[Jocund]

But the Jews did not see that they were to be diminished and the church was to be planted in the heathen nations ... this was beyond the ability of the Jews to understand. It was revealed to Paul. His commission was to reveal "Christ IN YOU the hope of glory"

I think it was the opposite. It's not that the Jews were diminished, in fact, the mission of their bloodline was complete. Now the door was open, now the veil was removed, and the path to salvation was open to the whole world. The lost sheep of the world could finally share in the message of salvation in Jesus Christ together.

The Great Commission was in play before Paul became a Christian. Paul was not the first or only person reaching into the nonJewish world. Paul did not only instruct those of nonJewish heritage but also those of Jewish heritage as well.

This is the famous mystery hidden from past generations but now revealed [by Paul] to the apostles and prophets [at the Jerusalem conference]

Which passages are you referencing with this? I'm interested in what you mean by this, I just don't have the context.

folk to whom God had never revealed Himself and to whom the law was never given.

My understanding is that it isn't necessarily the case that God hadn't revealed himself in some form to the nonJewish world. The callings of the law were imprinted in the nature of nonJews prior to the crucifixion (cf. Rom 2:14). And if you look at Greek philosophy through Plato, the same philosophies that point to one true God, you will see that the Philosophies of Plato trace back to Egypt, which seems to be declared the people of God in Isa 19:25. Plato threw doubt at the commonly observed pantheon of gods in Greek mythology.

"Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, [...]" - Isa 19:25a KJV

It was the intention of God to cast a net to the whole world, and so it makes sense that other cultures would be made ready to recieve the message when the time was right. They were wild and unattached to the root initially, but they were made ready to be compatible to be grafted in, just as many Jews that were cut off were compatible to be grafted back in when their time was right (like Saul to Paul).

This is why it was necessary for Paul to magnify grace through the gift of faith as opposed to the works of the law as the way of righteousness.

And this was a message that Paul magnified to all Christians at the time, including those from Jewish heritage. The message of the grace of God was (and is) a message for everyone.

 

[Evmur]

I think it was the opposite. It's not that the Jews were diminished, in fact, the mission of their bloodline was complete. Now the door was open, now the veil was removed, and the path to salvation was open to the whole world. The lost sheep of the world could finally share in the message of salvation in Jesus Christ together.

The Great Commission was in play before Paul became a Christian. Paul was not the first or only person reaching into the nonJewish world. Paul did not only instruct those of nonJewish heritage but also those of Jewish heritage as well.




Which passages are you referencing with this? I'm interested in what you mean by this, I just don't have the context.



My understanding is that it isn't necessarily the case that God hadn't revealed himself in some form to the nonJewish world. The callings of the law were imprinted in the nature of nonJews prior to the crucifixion (cf. Rom 2:14). And if you look at Greek philosophy through Plato, the same philosophies that point to one true God, you will see that the Philosophies of Plato trace back to Egypt, which seems to be declared the people of God in Isa 19:25. Plato threw doubt at the commonly observed pantheon of gods in Greek mythology.

"Whom the Lord of hosts shall bless, saying, Blessed be Egypt my people, [...]" - Isa 19:25a KJV

It was the intention of God to cast a net to the whole world, and so it makes sense that other cultures would be made ready to recieve the message when the time was right. They were wild and unattached to the root initially, but they were made ready to be compatible to be grafted in, just as many Jews that were cut off were compatible to be grafted back in when their time was right (like Saul to Paul).



And this was a message that Paul magnified to all Christians at the time, including those from Jewish heritage. The message of the grace of God was (and is) a message for everyone.

we are not in the same place in our understanding.

First the mystery kept hidden from past generations
Colossians 2. [brackets are mine]
....his body, that is the church of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given me for you [Gentiles]
to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to His saints [the Jews]

To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery which is Christ IN YOU [Gentiles] the hope of glory.

We always apply this Christ in us to ourselves as individuals for we are saved individually and that's right. But Paul in this instance is applying it to the Gentile church as it is planted among the nations of the world.

The Jews almost unshakably believed that the central hub of the kingdom was to be Jerusalem, and it will be in the next age, but during this gospel age until the times of the Gentiles are complete the assemblies were to be self governing entities within the communities in which they were planted, each one manifesting the indwelling Christ. That through the church the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the powers and princes of this world.

For the Jews the throne of David was to be set up and the nations of the world were to come to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob. So it shall be in the millennium.

It is important to understand how sharp the contention was that sprang up between Peter and Paul, we pass over it too lightly. For Paul to withstand Peter to the face was a massive event, considering who Peter was the "Rock" upon who Christ was to "build His church"

Peter had come to Antioch among the new Gentile disciples and fellowshipped and dined with them which signified their acceptance. But certain came down from Jerusalem teaching the Gentiles must be circumcised and obey Moses to be saved. Peter withdrew from the Gentiles.

This was awful.

It showed he no longer accepted the Gentiles as genuinely saved ... no wonder Paul reacted as he did.

It fully shows the difference in understanding the gospel of grace Paul was preaching between the Jews and the Gentiles.

No matter how many times in different ways God had been showing Peter that there was to be no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, he was still in the mind frame to withdraw from the Gentiles and treat them as unclean still.

Peter was made by Paul to see that salvation had come to the Gentiles as surely as it had come to the Jewish disciples, not through obedience to the law but by grace through faith.

Because this contention is not recognised the argument is STILL raging in the church to this very day. You read on forums like this, folks determined to teach that we must obey the law to be saved. It is deadly doctrine.

The letter of the law killeth but the Spirit maketh ALIVE.

This is just a brief overview of a very complex doctrine.

 

[awelight]

we are not in the same place in our understanding.

First the mystery kept hidden from past generations
Colossians 2. [brackets are mine]
....his body, that is the church of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given me for you [Gentiles]
to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to His saints [the Jews]

To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery which is Christ IN YOU [Gentiles] the hope of glory.

We always apply this Christ in us to ourselves as individuals for we are saved individually and that's right. But Paul in this instance is applying it to the Gentile church as it is planted among the nations of the world.

The Jews almost unshakably believed that the central hub of the kingdom was to be Jerusalem, and it will be in the next age, but during this gospel age until the times of the Gentiles are complete the assemblies were to be self governing entities within the communities in which they were planted, each one manifesting the indwelling Christ. That through the church the manifold wisdom of God might be made known to the powers and princes of this world.

For the Jews the throne of David was to be set up and the nations of the world were to come to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob. So it shall be in the millennium.

It is important to understand how sharp the contention was that sprang up between Peter and Paul, we pass over it too lightly. For Paul to withstand Peter to the face was a massive event, considering who Peter was the "Rock" upon who Christ was to "build His church"

Peter had come to Antioch among the new Gentile disciples and fellowshipped and dined with them which signified their acceptance. But certain came down from Jerusalem teaching the Gentiles must be circumcised and obey Moses to be saved. Peter withdrew from the Gentiles.

This was awful.

It showed he no longer accepted the Gentiles as genuinely saved ... no wonder Paul reacted as he did.

It fully shows the difference in understanding the gospel of grace Paul was preaching between the Jews and the Gentiles.

No matter how many times in different ways God had been showing Peter that there was to be no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, he was still in the mind frame to withdraw from the Gentiles and treat them as unclean still.

Peter was made by Paul to see that salvation had come to the Gentiles as surely as it had come to the Jewish disciples, not through obedience to the law but by grace through faith.

Because this contention is not recognised the argument is STILL raging in the church to this very day. You read on forums like this, folks determined to teach that we must obey the law to be saved. It is deadly doctrine.

The letter of the law killeth but the Spirit maketh ALIVE.

This is just a brief overview of a very complex doctrine.

This was a very nice post and I enjoyed reading it. I have something I would like to share with you, which I believe might clear up one of your points.

You stated that Peter was the "Rock" upon whom Christ was to build His church/assembly. This is an unfortunate interpretation, that has stood for far to long by so many. In particular the Catholics.

Jesus changed the name of Simon Bar-Jonah to Peter after his declaration that Jesus was the Son of God: Mat 16:16&17 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jonah: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

Jesus then shared, a previously unknown mystery with him and the others: Mat 16:18 And I also say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.

In the Greek text, two things should be pointed out.

1.) The Greek word for "Peter" is: - Petros - ( Πέτρος ), this word, is not understood as a "Rock" but as a "small stone" or "pebble" or a chip from a larger rock. The word translated: "rock", is the Greek word - Petra - ( πέτρᾳ ), meaning: a massive rock. Thus, when Jesus Christ said: "upon this rock..." the word "this" was not referring to Peter, it was referring to Jesus Christ Himself. THE ROCK.
See verses such as: Exo. 17:6; 33:22; Deu. 32:31; 1 Sam. 2:2; 2 Sam. 22:2&3; Psa. 28:1; 62:2; 1 Cor. 10:4.

2) The Greek word translated: " I will build" - οἰκοδομήσω - Is a Progressive Future tense Verb. It therefore means: "I am building and will continue to build." However, some Greek scholars see it as only a Future tense Verb and deny that it is a Progressive Future.

Thought you might be interested.

 

[Jocund]

we are not in the same place in our understanding.

First the mystery kept hidden from past generations
Colossians 2. [brackets are mine]
....his body, that is the church of which I became a minister according to the divine office which was given me for you [Gentiles]
to make the word of God fully known, the mystery hidden for ages and generations but now made manifest to His saints [the Jews]

To them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of this mystery which is Christ IN YOU [Gentiles] the hope of glory.

I see your passage comes from Col 1:25-29.

If I understand correctly, you are proposing that "saints" refers to "Christians and nonChristians of Jewish heritage", and also proposing that the audience of Colossians would only be Christians of nonJewish heritage.

I don't agree with the interpretation that "saints" would mean only Jews. I don't agree with the interpretation that "saint" could include Jews that are not in Christ. I don't find the Dispensationalism framework to be compatible with the Bible.

"To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." - Col 1:2 KJV

The audience of the book of Colossians includes "saints". If Christians and nonChristians of Jewish heritage are "saints", that means that they are included in the audience. The "you" in Col 1:3-4 means that "saint" cannot be referencing nonChristian Jews.

"We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints," - Col 1:3-4 KJV

These lines even state "Grace be upon you" which makes perfect sense in Christianity but conflicts with the Dispensationalist position that "a dispensation of Grace" was somehow only meant for nonJews.

Saints (those set apart) are Christians, plain and simple. Saints belong to the body of Christ, the church.

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." - 1 Cor 14:33 KJV

"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." - Rom 1:7 KJV

Ultimately, translating "saint" as "Christians and nonChristians of Jewish heritage" is untenable. Which means that your interpretation of Col 1 regarding divisions of "saints" vs the "you" audience is incoherent.

If we look at the meaning of saints, we see in Psalm 50 a reference to those thàt have a covenant with God through a sacrifice.

"Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice." - Psalm 50:5 KJV

"Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." - Heb 10:8-10 KJV

In a post crucifixion world, the only suitable sacrifice for a relationship with God is by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. "Saint" and "sanctification" are closely tied terms. All of those in Christ are saints and have entered that covenant by a blood sacrifice in Christ.

We always apply this Christ in us to ourselves as individuals for we are saved individually and that's right. But Paul in this instance is applying it to the Gentile church as it is planted among the nations of the world.

There is no such thing as "the Gentile church". There were churches that may have been led by Gentiles (cf. Rom 16:4), but not a Gentile 'church' distinctive from Jews. There is one body.

Churches "of" the Gentiles from the Greek can be understood as "churches within the foreign nations"

For the Jews the throne of David was to be set up and the nations of the world were to come to Jerusalem to learn the ways of the God of Jacob. So it shall be in the millennium.

A literal 1000 year kingdom is certainly one way to interpet Revelation.

The Dispensationalism 1000 year kingdom is heavily influenced by the Talmudic Judaic interpretation of the 1000 year kingdom. Talmudic Judaism is an antiChrist religion.

It is important to understand how sharp the contention was that sprang up between Peter and Paul, we pass over it too lightly. For Paul to withstand Peter to the face was a massive event, considering who Peter was the "Rock" upon who Christ was to "build His church"

Jesus rebuked Peter at one point with the infamous "get thee behind me, Satan". God was speaking through Paul to again rebuke and correct a wrong. It is wrong to divide the body of Christ by those of the Jews and those not of the Jews. The sequence is an important lesson to tell all Christians that "yes" you can carry forward many traditions of your forefathers, but not traditions that are incompatible with Christianity.

It fully shows the difference in understanding the gospel of grace Paul was preaching between the Jews and the Gentiles.

Paul was preaching to all parties of the church, those of Jew and Gentile origin alike.

No matter how many times in different ways God had been showing Peter that there was to be no distinction between Jews and Gentiles, he was still in the mind frame to withdraw from the Gentiles and treat them as unclean still.

The Dispensationist movement continues to try to withdraw those with Jewish heritage from the church. Where the word of Christ should be spread to the world, there are some Dispensationalists that have the opinion that Talmudic Jews don't need that message for some reason, or that Talmudic Jews could never really join the church. The precept that Talmudic Jews could never convert and become part of the church is heretical.

Peter was made by Paul to see that salvation had come to the Gentiles as surely as it had come to the Jewish disciples, not through obedience to the law but by grace through faith.

Salvation also came to those of Jewish heritage by grace and not through the law.

Because this contention is not recognised the argument is STILL raging in the church to this very day. You read on forums like this, folks determined to teach that we must obey the law to be saved. It is deadly doctrine.

The letter of the law killeth but the Spirit maketh ALIVE.

I agree.

This is just a brief overview of a very complex doctrine.

I agree with that too. It can take a long time to completely explore a doctrine, including misconceptions.

 

[Evmur]

I see your passage comes from Col 1:25-29.

If I understand correctly, you are proposing that "saints" refers to "Christians and nonChristians of Jewish heritage", and also proposing that the audience of Colossians would only be Christians of nonJewish heritage.

I don't agree with the interpretation that "saints" would mean only Jews. I don't agree with the interpretation that "saint" could include Jews that are not in Christ. I don't find the Dispensationalism framework to be compatible with the Bible.

"To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ which are at Colosse: Grace be unto you, and peace, from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ." - Col 1:2 KJV

The audience of the book of Colossians includes "saints". If Christians and nonChristians of Jewish heritage are "saints", that means that they are included in the audience. The "you" in Col 1:3-4 means that "saint" cannot be referencing nonChristian Jews.

"We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, Since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus, and of the love which ye have to all the saints," - Col 1:3-4 KJV

These lines even state "Grace be upon you" which makes perfect sense in Christianity but conflicts with the Dispensationalist position that "a dispensation of Grace" was somehow only meant for nonJews.

Saints (those set apart) are Christians, plain and simple. Saints belong to the body of Christ, the church.

"For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." - 1 Cor 14:33 KJV

"To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ." - Rom 1:7 KJV

Ultimately, translating "saint" as "Christians and nonChristians of Jewish heritage" is untenable. Which means that your interpretation of Col 1 regarding divisions of "saints" vs the "you" audience is incoherent.

If we look at the meaning of saints, we see in Psalm 50 a reference to those thàt have a covenant with God through a sacrifice.

"Gather my saints together unto me; those that have made a covenant with me by sacrifice." - Psalm 50:5 KJV

"Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." - Heb 10:8-10 KJV

In a post crucifixion world, the only suitable sacrifice for a relationship with God is by accepting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ. "Saint" and "sanctification" are closely tied terms. All of those in Christ are saints and have entered that covenant by a blood sacrifice in Christ.



There is no such thing as "the Gentile church". There were churches that may have been led by Gentiles (cf. Rom 16:4), but not a Gentile 'church' distinctive from Jews. There is one body.

Churches "of" the Gentiles from the Greek can be understood as "churches within the foreign nations"



A literal 1000 year kingdom is certainly one way to interpet Revelation.

The Dispensationalism 1000 year kingdom is heavily influenced by the Talmudic Judaic interpretation of the 1000 year kingdom. Talmudic Judaism is an antiChrist religion.



Jesus rebuked Peter at one point with the infamous "get thee behind me, Satan". God was speaking through Paul to again rebuke and correct a wrong. It is wrong to divide the body of Christ by those of the Jews and those not of the Jews. The sequence is an important lesson to tell all Christians that "yes" you can carry forward many traditions of your forefathers, but not traditions that are incompatible with Christianity.



Paul was preaching to all parties of the church, those of Jew and Gentile origin alike.



The Dispensationist movement continues to try to withdraw those with Jewish heritage from the church. Where the word of Christ should be spread to the world, there are some Dispensationalists that have the opinion that Talmudic Jews don't need that message for some reason, or that Talmudic Jews could never really join the church. The precept that Talmudic Jews could never convert and become part of the church is heretical.



Salvation also came to those of Jewish heritage by grace and not through the law.



I agree.



I agree with that too. It can take a long time to completely explore a doctrine, including misconceptions.

You have a different way of thinking to me.

 

[wattie]

...The Body Of Christ

The positional beginning of the Body of Christ took place in the
Mind of God before time began (Eph. 3:9; II Tim. 1:9). The Body
of Christ itself remained a secret hidden from man until, in His
Own time, God Initiated the Dispensation of Grace and revealed
its message to the Apostle Paul. This was the practical beginning
of the Church, which is Christ’s Body.

View attachment 244379

In order to “rightly divide The Word of Truth” (II Tim. 2:15), we must
know when the Dispensation of Grace began in order to determine
which part of the Bible directly applies to the present dispensation,
the Body of Christ, and which pertains to Israel and God’s covenant
promises. Here, we will be looking at Evidence from Scripture that
indicates when God Interrupted the prophesied Kingdom program
and Began The Dispensation of Grace...
"
(E Bedore)
The Practical Beginning Of The Body Of Christ (I)
The Practical Beginning Of The Body Of Christ (II)

Grace, Peace, And JOY!

There is the Family of God.. which had every believer in it.

There is the Kingdom.. which has the Family in it.

Churches.. bodies of Christ.. are within the Family and Kingdom... but not the same thing.

The Family of God is not the Body of Christ.

So... church at Jerusalem...local.. did not include every believer in the area necessarily.

Church at Rome.. ditto

Ephesus.. ditto

Colosse .. ditto

Phillipi ... ditto

Revelation.. multiple churches plural.

Galatians.. multiple churches plural.

There is no body of Christ that is every believer!

That is the Family of God.. with God and His angels.

They aren't the same thing!

'There is one body '... yes! At Ephesus there was one local church body!

Every believer will be one body of Christ. One local church in heaven.. but we aren't there yet. That doesn’t exist yet.

Final time...Family of God and body of Christ are different!

The Family began with Adam.. the body of Christ with the first local church of Jesus and His disciples.

Every believer didn't start at Pentecost. It started with Adam.

The church didn't start with Adam.. and didn't start at Pentecost.

See Real Churches Or A Fog by S E Anderson... and My Church by J M Moody for a biblical expose of what 'the church' is.

Over

 

[Jocund]

There is no body of Christ that is every believer!

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." - 1 Cor 12:12-13 KJV

 

[wattie]

"For as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of that one body, being many, are one body: so also is Christ. For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit." - 1 Cor 12:12-13 KJV

Yes, this is the body at Corinth. Paul says to Corinth.. YOU are the body of Christ.

Thats not every believer. That's the local church at Corinth.

 

[Jocund]

Yes, this is the body at Corinth. Paul says to Corinth.. YOU are the body of Christ.

Thats not every believer. That's the local church at Corinth.

Was Paul a member of Corinth? He says "we" in the scope of this. The way you are objecting makes no sense.

The clear message of Paul's words are that all believers are part of the one body of Christ. If you read the rest of 1 Cor 12, you will see that he acknowledges that there are differences between parts of the body of Christ. An eye and an ear have different functions, and by extension different church congregations can serve different missions.

I don't think the spirit of your compartmentalization argument is necessarily bad, but it's your terminology that is off. There is only one body of Christ, but each member may serve a different scope of functions. The cells of an eye all support the function of the eye, etc.

There are churches or church congregations and then there is 'the Church.' The Church is the body of Christ which contains everyone in Christ.

 

[FlyingDove]

No doubt the Body of Christ began in the mind of God. To say otherwise claims God didn't have a plan to start with. There are zero members until Christ is resurrected.

1 Cor 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
(MY NOTE: Everybody dies & EVERYBODY will be resurrected.)

2 resurrections:
(1) Every promised Messiah/Christ believer unto eternal life with the Lord Jesus (Jn 3:16) = Member of the Body of Christ!

(2) Every Messiah/Christ denier unto everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord (2 Thes 1:9) = Not members of the Body of Christ!

Old covenant citing's (generally) refer to the Mosaic (thru law) covenant. New covenant reference's post death & resurrection. Having said that, the Abrahamic covenant (pre-Mosaic) is the foundation of the new (thru faith) covenant.

Old Testament believers Noah, Abrahan etc, had to die & wait until resurrected to officially become, Body of Christ members. Post death & resurrection believers become members at conversion (while still alive) when they receive Christ's Holy Spirit baptism.

Find the difference here:

Jn 7:
38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

There are several hidden mystery's/secrets the Lord chose to reveal thru the apostle Paul. Because a secret/mystery had yet to be made known. Doesn't mean it already wasn't in existence.

I contend Jesus is the 1st to resurrect (1 Cor 15:20-23) becoming the Head of the Body. (Col 1:18, Eph 1:22).

Shortly after Jesus resurrection, graves were opened (Matt 27:52 -53). Many bodies of OT saints which slept arose/were resurrected. All these old covenants (thru faith) resurrected believers. Become parts of the Body of Christ, 50 days before the Acts 2 new covenant Holy Spirit outpouring.

 

[wattie]

Was Paul a member of Corinth? He says "we" in the scope of this. The way you are objecting makes no sense.

The clear message of Paul's words are that all believers are part of the one body of Christ. If you read the rest of 1 Cor 12, you will see that he acknowledges that there are differences between parts of the body of Christ. An eye and an ear have different functions, and by extension different church congregations can serve different missions.

I don't think the spirit of your compartmentalization argument is necessarily bad, but it's your terminology that is off. There is only one body of Christ, but each member may serve a different scope of functions. The cells of an eye all support the function of the eye, etc.

There are churches or church congregations and then there is 'the Church.' The Church is the body of Christ which contains everyone in Christ.

Well Paul would have been baptised in reference to the body he joined. The Corinthians baptised in reference to Corinth.

So then there is no problem.

The Spirit in 1 Corinthians 12:13 gets put as the big S Holy Spirit, but in keeping with the context of the book of unity in a local church.. it should be a small 's'

But if we go to Matthew 16:18.. this reference by Jesus to His church must be local, because other references are local after it.

Matthew 18 .. He is talking a process of church discipline in the setting of a local congregation. It is an update of the deuteronomy process.

Why would Jesus change to a different kind of church here.. when He defined it earlier in Mathew 16:18?

But the central problem with calling the body of Christ every believer is you arent starting it before the NT. If it really was every believer it would have OT saints who believed in the Messiah to come.

David believed in a redeemer.. so did Job.. but most who believe the body of Christ is every believer exclude them from it.

This is why the body of Christ and the Family of God are not the same thing.

Last big problem you've got is the unity and parts of the body... can't be defined for a universal, invisible church of all redeemed.

But unity for a local church.. with members being the group of believers who joined that church is very achievable and what Paul admonishes churches in thru the NT.