The Pre-Trib Rapture - a PRIZE for only a few

[TheDivineWatermark]

Daniel 12:12 (speaking of the point in time surrounding Christ's Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied earthly Millennial Kingdom): "Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days."

This is parallel with about 8-9 other "BLESSED" passages speaking of the same point in time, in the chronology. ALL speaking of "still-living persons" [saints] at that point in time. None of which speak of their getting a "changed/glorified body"... they ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies, capable of bearing children/reproducing [during the MK age]... (though I DO believe they, as Jn11:26 states, "SHALL NEVER DIE," and this is because Jesus Himself will be present and reigning, and what He says, goes! )

 

[Corban]

^ meant to add (to my Post #37):

Others (those existing IN/DURING the trib yrs) will be coming to faith IN/WITHIN/DURING those trib yrs, and this is what Lk21:36 refers to where it says "that ye may be accounted worthy [some versions say, 'have strength'] to [actively] FLEE OUT OF each and every thing coming to pass [on the earth DURING the trib], and to stand before [in a judicial sense] the Son of man" [His 'Second Coming TO THE EARTH' designation]...

I owe you an answer for posting # 37. But you have gone ahead with more postings which made # 37 redundant. I will answer your posting above thus. Are you able to explain a scripture without adding your words into it? Let's take Luke 21:36 as our example. But to explain it I add the context below so you can check yourself. Up to verse 24 the events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem are talked about by our Lord Jesus. Then, abruptly in verse 25 He changes the time frame to, "... and upon the earth distress of nations ... " Up to now it was the "distress of Jerusalem". Now it is suddenly (i) UNIVERSAL signs (for the sun and moon are seen by all on earth), (ii) the EARTH (not only Jerusalem), and (iii) NationS (plural), not just the Nation of Israel. Additional things are

• perplexity among men
• Men's hearts failing because of fear
• The powers of heaven shakened
• The Fig Tree and other Trees shooting forth

What does the Lord say about these things? He says that they are signs that "your redemption draws near" (v.28), and that the Kingdom, which God predicted by Daniel, is about to be set up. The prophecy is FOR the disciples of Jesus. The "redemption" is to be saved from the effects of those points above, and the end of the points above is the establishing of the Kingdom of God on earth. But then in verse 34 is a WARNING. It is, "don't be caught (i) "surfeiting", (2) "drunk", or (ii) caring about the things of this life. Verse 35 says that these things will overtake the earth. "Surfeiting" means the headache you get from worry or from a drunken binge, "drunk" means escaping into alcohol, and caring for the things of life means your heart is in the world. All these things will come upon men in these days. So what does the next verse say - verse 36?

It tells of two things; (i) HOW one is redeemed from verse 28, and (ii) that the redemption is ONLY if you are not caught in the world's drunkenness and cares. That is, you - disciple of Jesus, and living at this time, NEED AN ESCAPE. And what is this escape? It is "to stand before the Son of man!" What does this mean? In Matthew 24:29-30 Jesus only appears to "ALL the tribes of the earth" AFTER THE TRIBULATION OF THOSE DAYS! That means, BEFORE the Tribulation of those days HE IS NOT ON EARTH! Where is He. He is making a journey from the highest heavens (Eph.4:10) to the earth. In Luke 21:36 the Tribulation is NOT OVER so He is STILL IN THE AIR.

The "redemption" of verse 28 is to be standing BEFORE Jesus while He is in the air. And this redemption is ONLY GIVEN if you don't join the world in its escape to drunkenness.

To reach this conclusion I have not had to add a single word to the verse. It makes clear that there is a world-wide trouble coming on men. That there is an escape. That the escape is to the air where Jesus is. But that escape is for those who are SEPARATE from the world MORALLY.


Luke 21 - for reference;
25 "And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.
28 And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.
29 And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees;
30 When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand.
31 So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand.
32 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.
33 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man."

 

[Ahwatukee]

I'll grant you your right to your opinion. I will answer that which is (i) addressed in the OP, and (ii) for which you posted scripture. I think this is fair.

John 14:1-3 concerns the "Father's House". I did not address it in my OP. There is at present another thread on this matter running and my understanding is well documented on this.

Sir, there is nothing difficult about John 14:1-3. The Lord plainly stated that there were many rooms/dwelling places in His Father's house and that He was going there to prepare places for us and that He was going to come again to take us back to those places, which again is in the Father's house. Nothing difficult here. This demonstrates that at some point the Lord is going to return to gather His church. I Cor.15:51-53 and I Thess.4:16-17 is the detailed account of when the Lord comes to gather us.

The term "Tribulation saints" never appears in scripture, and you gave no proof of a special company so designated. If you mean Christians who have to pass through the Great Tribulation, then that is what I said in my OP. We agree then.

"These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The onew = the saints

The great tribulation = the time of God's wrath

Ergo, great tribulation saints. Or if you like the saints that come out of the great tribulation.

Obviously they are a designated group, because the elder specifically mentions them, just as the 144,000 are mentioned as a specific group. Let me be clear, this group is not the church. They will be those who become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered and during the tribulation period.

Whether or not the Company of Revelation 7 are "saints" or "Tribulation saints", they pass through the Great Tribulation. On this we agree. But in agreeing to that you contradict your claim that, quote,

It is not a great leap to apply the title of 'Saints' to them, as scripture states that they will not have loved their lives so much as to shrink away from death, kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, not worshiping the beast, his image nor receiving his mark. And even if they are not called saints in Revelation 7, they are referred to as saints in other scriptures within Revelation, such as in Rev.7:7 "Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them"

I think you misread my posting. I did not say that "anastasis" was used once only in scripture. I said that the word rendered "resurrection" in Philippians 3:11 is used once. The Greek is "EXANASTASIS."

In Philippians 3:10 Paul uses the word 'anastasis' translated as 'Resurrection', then in verse 11 he uses 'exanastasis' which is a noun that intensifies anastasis. Both words are speaking about the same event of when the resurrection of the church takes place.

John 14:1-3 does not speak of Rapture. It speaks of Christ preparing "abodes" for the disciples in the Father's House. The Father's House is Christ's Body (John 2) - the Church (1st Tim.3:15).

Boy, are you bending and twisting the scriptures here?! Well, we know that Jesus wasn't Jesus speaking to His disciples when He gave that promise to come back and get them. Jesus went to the Father's house which could be no other location but heaven. He said that He would come back and take us to be where He is, which again would be the Father's house.

Your claim that the Father's house as referring to Christ's body, is in complete disregard for the context. The fact that Jesus is referring to going back to the Father's house to prepare those places would demonstrate that He is not speaking about His body, but of actual places that He went to prepare for us.

1st Corinthians 51-53 speaks of a living man being changed from corruption to incorruption. Rapture is not mentioned

I can see that you don't have enough study in this by the comments you are making. If you read the entire context, Paul states the following:

"just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man."

Our bearing the likeness of the heavenly man (Jesus) will be accomplished when the Lord appears, so that the dead will be raised imperishable and raised in glory. For those believers who are still alive we will simply be changed into our immortal and glorified bodies and caught up with those who will have been resurrected.

You first say that the Lord comes to receive the saints to take them "back" to the Father's House, but you later say that they come to earth on white horses. Do you mean they leave the Father's House that Jesus prepared for them? If so, what are your scriptures?

John 14:1-3 = Jesus going to the Father's house to prepare places for all believers and His promise to come back to get us to takes us to those places which are in the Father's house.

I Thessalonians 4:13-17 is a detailed account of when the Lord comes to take us back to the Father's house.

While in heaven, believers will stand at the Bema seat of Christ to receive rewards or to suffer loss of rewards (2 Cor.5:10)

Another event which will take place while in heaven, will be the marriage of the Lamb to His bride, the church.

"Hallelujah!

For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory.

For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.

She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”

Then in Rev.19:14 we have the following:

"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses."

Notice that the armies following Christ out of heaven are wearing fine linen, white and pure, which are the same garments that were given to the bride in verse 8 at the marriage of the Lamb.

To put it all into perspective, once the Lord comes to gather His church to take us back to the Father's house, we will be judged at the Bema Seat of Christ to receive reward or loss of reward. Then during that same time in heaven, the marriage of the Lamb will take place where the bride/church will receive her fine linen, white and pure. Then in verse 14, we see the bride/church wearing her fine linen, white and pure and riding white horse and following the Lord out of heaven to engage the nations at Armageddon. Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. We also have another scripture in Revelation 17:14 which shows the bride/church being with the Lord as He returns to the earth:

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The "They" in the scripture above is referring to the beast and the ten kings when the Lord returns to the earth to engage them. And with Him will be His called, chosen and faithful followers, which will be the bride/church.

Just because the Lord goes to prepare places for us, does not mean that we are restricted to those places. For one, they will be places for us in heaven while the earth is experiencing God's wrath. After the 7th bowl has been poured out, then Jesus, along with His church and His angels, will descend upon the earth at Armageddon, where at which point the beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20). After that Satan will be seized by that mighty angel and will be thrown into the Abyss and sealed over him so that he can't deceive the nations during that thousand years.

What I teach is based on the word of God and not from my own opinion. People like to make that claim that you are making in an attempt discredit the truth. I did not come to these conclusions lightly, nor from the cuff of my sleeve. But these conclusions come from over 45 years of personal study.

The gathering of the church has always been an imminent event. Even Paul included himself and those with him, as those who would be living at the time when the Lord appeared. This is evident when he speaks about the living being changed and caught up when he says "After that, 'we' who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. However, we know that since this event has not yet taken place that it is still imminent and is closer than ever.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Verse 36 is like a summary statement. It covers a lot of ground.

"escape" ['flee out of' - G1628] is their "active" doing. https://biblehub.com/interlinear/luke/21-36.htm

This is contrasted with certain ones of whom it is said (during that same specific, future, limited, earthly time-period) "[they] will NOT escape" (same word). Both groups will be existing IN/DURING the trib yrs, but one group will be heeding the directive to "WATCH and PRAY ALWAYS, IN ORDER THAT...". Neither group refers to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [see again what I'd posted about that "WATCH" word in 1Th5:6,10!! (at link I had provided in Post #36)] (who will be raptured PRIOR TO "the DOTL" time-period commences to unfold upon the earth, with its "man of sin" and its "signs" and so forth which point toward and LEAD UP TO His Second Coming to the earth)

 

[Jimbone]

The picture that God batters his bride into submission through terrible torment is not a image we should ascribe to God .

But this is ALWAYS the argument that comes up, and presented in a way where all ugliness is ascribed to God, but God is good and it's not Him nor His will for us to suffer ever. So I'm sorry but if the bride is "battered into submission" it was only because she choose to turn from Him and ignore His commandments, we cannot create this false idea of God choosing to beat anyone down. It's NEVER His choice that hurts us, it's ours. God saves and loves, and calls us to Him, but He too hates sin, and its us following sin that hurts us and leads from Him to death. The further out of His will we stray, the harder it gets to turn back, and the more chaotic life gets. The more sin, the faster it happens, but it is not God doing it to us. I believe our punishments on this earth are just the natural reaction to sin.

I also believe that everything you're talking about has already come to pass exactly as Jesus said it would, but that's a whole different subject, sorry for going there.

I am just really pointing out this idea that if this scenario where to play out you look at God as the bad guy when the wicked people fall under His judgement. I think that's a very small and close minded fleshly way of thinking about God. I know that was harsh language, but I am just being descriptive of the belief I'm talking about, I do not mean it as an insult to you at all. Just this idea that God is going to come be real mean to innocent people is just not a rational position at all, therefore a straw man argument from my point of view. We all deserve wrath, the fact He saves any of us only speaks to His unbelievable mercy and His amazing grace!!! Oh glory to our KING!!!!!!!

Again I am truly sorry if I was offensive, I was not trying to attack you as a person at all. I understand what you mean. and from you're point of view I would agree 100%, I just wanted to share this other point of view here.

 

[Ahwatukee]

I kinda agree with you, but Ephesians 5:27 says; "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." You don't have to answer, but I'll ask anyway. Do you know Christians who are not "without blemish"?

I freely admit that I am not without blemish. And I know Christians who openly sin, never mind that I know that the thoughts and intents of the heart are worse. And why, if we are perfect, holy, without spot, without wrinkle and without blemish does God threaten to chastise so that we REMAIN SONS of God? (Heb.12:5-9)

No, I don't know any Christians who in their own selves are without blemish. However, when we believed in Christ we were credited with the righteousness of Christ and reconciled to God. Though we are still sinners, the Father sees us as perfect because Christ is perfect. Regarding being presented as a glorious church, scripture also says the following:

"But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, and do not move from the hope held out in the gospel."

So, according to the scripture above, it is through faith in Christ's death that we are made holy in his sight. And our being presented unblemished and holy in His sight is contingent upon continuing in faith from beginning to end. This has happened because the righteousness of Christ has been credited to all believers.

In regards to your post above, no one would be presented holy and without blemish based on our own sinful natures. For the word of God says that there is none righteous, no, not one. All have sinned, all fall short of His glory. However, in Christ we are spotless and pure, because Jesus already paid the penalty for our sins. It is true that as believers we need to continue to confess our sins that we commit and to continue from faith to faith. But while we are in that state of faithfulness we are cleansed of all unrighteousness. Regarding those who believe in Christ Paul said:

"Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit who gives life has set you a free from the law of sin and death."

 

[Corban]

Sir, there is nothing difficult about John 14:1-3. The Lord plainly stated that there were many rooms/dwelling places in His Father's house and that He was going there to prepare places for us and that He was going to come again to take us back to those places, which again is in the Father's house. Nothing difficult here. This demonstrates that at some point the Lord is going to return to gather His church. I Cor.15:51-53 and I Thess.4:16-17 is the detailed account of when the Lord comes to gather us.



"These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

The onew = the saints

The great tribulation = the time of God's wrath

Ergo, great tribulation saints. Or if you like the saints that come out of the great tribulation.

Obviously they are a designated group, because the elder specifically mentions them, just as the 144,000 are mentioned as a specific group. Let me be clear, this group is not the church. They will be those who become believers in Christ after the church has been gathered and during the tribulation period.



It is not a great leap to apply the title of 'Saints' to them, as scripture states that they will not have loved their lives so much as to shrink away from death, kept the testimony of Jesus and the word of God, not worshiping the beast, his image nor receiving his mark. And even if they are not called saints in Revelation 7, they are referred to as saints in other scriptures within Revelation, such as in Rev.7:7 "Then the beast was permitted to wage war against the saints and to conquer them"



In Philippians 3:10 Paul uses the word 'anastasis' translated as 'Resurrection', then in verse 11 he uses 'exanastasis' which is a noun that intensifies anastasis. Both words are speaking about the same event of when the resurrection of the church takes place.



Boy, are you bending and twisting the scriptures here?! Well, we know that Jesus wasn't Jesus speaking to His disciples when He gave that promise to come back and get them. Jesus went to the Father's house which could be no other location but heaven. He said that He would come back and take us to be where He is, which again would be the Father's house.

Your claim that the Father's house as referring to Christ's body, is in complete disregard for the context. The fact that Jesus is referring to going back to the Father's house to prepare those places would demonstrate that He is not speaking about His body, but of actual places that He went to prepare for us.



I can see that you don't have enough study in this by the comments you are making. If you read the entire context, Paul states the following:

"just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so also shall we bear the likeness of the heavenly man."

Our bearing the likeness of the heavenly man (Jesus) will be accomplished when the Lord appears, so that the dead will be raised imperishable and raised in glory. For those believers who are still alive we will simply be changed into our immortal and glorified bodies and caught up with those who will have been resurrected.



John 14:1-3 = Jesus going to the Father's house to prepare places for all believers and His promise to come back to get us to takes us to those places which are in the Father's house.

I Thessalonians 4:13-17 is a detailed account of when the Lord comes to take us back to the Father's house.

While in heaven, believers will stand at the Bema seat of Christ to receive rewards or to suffer loss of rewards (2 Cor.5:10)

Another event which will take place while in heaven, will be the marriage of the Lamb to His bride, the church.

"Hallelujah!

For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns.

Let us rejoice and be glad and give Him the glory.

For the marriage of the Lamb has come, and His bride has made herself ready.

She was given clothing of fine linen, bright and pure.”

Then in Rev.19:14 we have the following:

"The armies of heaven, dressed in fine linen, white and pure, follow Him on white horses."

Notice that the armies following Christ out of heaven are wearing fine linen, white and pure, which are the same garments that were given to the bride in verse 8 at the marriage of the Lamb.

To put it all into perspective, once the Lord comes to gather His church to take us back to the Father's house, we will be judged at the Bema Seat of Christ to receive reward or loss of reward. Then during that same time in heaven, the marriage of the Lamb will take place where the bride/church will receive her fine linen, white and pure. Then in verse 14, we see the bride/church wearing her fine linen, white and pure and riding white horse and following the Lord out of heaven to engage the nations at Armageddon. Rev.19:11-21 is a detailed account of when the Lord returns to the earth to end the age and establish His millennial kingdom. We also have another scripture in Revelation 17:14 which shows the bride/church being with the Lord as He returns to the earth:

"They will wage war against the Lamb, but the Lamb will triumph over them because he is Lord of lords and King of kings—and with him will be his called, chosen and faithful followers.”

The "They" in the scripture above is referring to the beast and the ten kings when the Lord returns to the earth to engage them. And with Him will be His called, chosen and faithful followers, which will be the bride/church.

Just because the Lord goes to prepare places for us, does not mean that we are restricted to those places. For one, they will be places for us in heaven while the earth is experiencing God's wrath. After the 7th bowl has been poured out, then Jesus, along with His church and His angels, will descend upon the earth at Armageddon, where at which point the beast and the false prophet will be captured and thrown alive into the lake of fire (Rev.19:20). After that Satan will be seized by that mighty angel and will be thrown into the Abyss and sealed over him so that he can't deceive the nations during that thousand years.

What I teach is based on the word of God and not from my own opinion. People like to make that claim that you are making in an attempt discredit the truth. I did not come to these conclusions lightly, nor from the cuff of my sleeve. But these conclusions come from over 45 years of personal study.

The gathering of the church has always been an imminent event. Even Paul included himself and those with him, as those who would be living at the time when the Lord appeared. This is evident when he speaks about the living being changed and caught up when he says "After that, 'we' who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. However, we know that since this event has not yet taken place that it is still imminent and is closer than ever.

Thanks for answering so comprehensively. I think we should sort one thing out at a time. The Lord forbids private interpretation (2nd Peter 1:20). So you are obliged to rely on scripture to explain itself. The "Father's House" is (i) the Temple (Jn.2:16), until it became Christ's Body (Jn.2:21). And this becomes the Church (1st Tim.3:15). Our Lord Jesus did NOT say that He would come to take His disciples to heaven. He said that He would GO AWAY to prepare abodes in this Father's House, and then He would RETURN, NOT to take disciples to heaven, but that they could be (at a future day) where He was NOW as He spoke. He was THEN, as He spoke, ON EARTH, and He told where He was in verse 10. He was "In the father and the Father in Him". The Father's House is the Body of Christ. It is enlarged by being the Church. The subject was Jesus' death to prepare the way for disciples to become "abodes" In the CHURCH.

This Jesus did. He went away in death, came back to the disciples, breathed the Holy Spirit into them, and they became the many abodes in the Father's House - the Church. There is no talk of taking the to heaven in John 14:1-3. But perhaps you can show me where heaven is mentioned?

Go well brother, and - no private interpretation

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

What does the Lord say about these things? He says that they are signs that "your redemption draws near" (v.28), and that the Kingdom, which God predicted by Daniel, is about to be set up. The prophecy is FOR the disciples of Jesus.

There will be "disciples" of Jesus IN/WITHIN/DURING the trib yrs (those having come to faith IN/WITHIN/DURING the trib yrs, FOLLOWING "our Rapture")... it is THEIR "redemption" that will indeed be drawing NEAR (at the time of His Second Coming to the earth, FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom--This context is not speaking of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (though IS indeed referring to "saints/believers"!)... but those still on the earth in/within/during the trib yrs leading UP TO His Second Coming to the earth... IOW, "redemption" does not equal "Rapture" [-word]).



["Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (all those saved "in this present age [singular]"), not to all other saints of all OTHER time periods]

 

[Blain]

No one with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit will be be in the Tribulation . It will be a time of trial for Israel not the Church .
the Scripture says that the Antichrist given authority—that’s by Satan—to make war against the saints. Now, those are the tribulation saints who come to Christ during the Great Tribulation, because the gospel will be preached—and to overcome them. And anyone who does not bow down and worship his image is killed. Well, that would be the entire church. Jesus said the gates of hell could not prevail against the church. The church is the bride of Christ. He is not going to leave us to the tender mercies of Antichrist to wipe us all out. So that’s another reason why we must be removed.

My point was that there are many who claim to be of Christ but do not know him these people I believe are the tares separated from the wheat and also the five foolish virgins many go by scripture but forget that he desires an intimate relationship they lack any kind of love in their hearts though they claim to be of him

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

This Jesus did. He went away in death, came back to the disciples, breathed the Holy Spirit into them, and they became the many abodes in the Father's House - the Church. There is no talk of taking the to heaven in John 14:1-3. But perhaps you can show me where heaven is mentioned?

One thing to consider, about this, (or... a few ):

--John 14:3 - "that where ['at whichever spot' - G3699] I am, there also you may be" (where all is that?)

--John 13:36 - "where I go ye cannot follow Me now, but you will follow Me afterward [G5305 - eventually]" (said to His disciples... to whom He had also said "I go to the Father" - Jn14:12,28 and Jn16:10,16,17)

--John 8:21-22 - "where I go, ye cannot come" (said to the Pharisees of v.13... see also v.19)

 

[Ahwatukee]

Thanks for answering so comprehensively. I think we should sort one thing out at a time. The Lord forbids private interpretation (2nd Peter 1:20). So you are obliged to rely on scripture to explain itself. The "Father's House" is (i) the Temple (Jn.2:16), until it became Christ's Body (Jn.2:21). And this becomes the Church (1st Tim.3:15).

That the places that Jesus went to prepare for us is being reinterpreted by you as referring to Jesus body, which is false in this context. Consider the following scripture:

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”

So, based on the scripture above, is the reference to "the temple" referring to the body of Christ or to the actual physical temple in Jerusalem? It is referring to the literal temple in Jerusalem because the context bears that out. It is the same with John 14:1-3. The context has Jesus returning to the Father's house to prepare dwelling places for believers and returning to get us to take us there. The context is clear that the Lord is referring to dwelling places in heaven and not to a spiritual interpretation referring to His body. To do so would be a great distortion of the literal meaning of the scripture. To be clear, Jesus going to prepare places for believers is not referring to His body. Think about it! "In My Father's house are many rooms." That is not referring to the body of Christ, but actual dwelling places.

Our Lord Jesus did NOT say that He would come to take His disciples to heaven. He said that He would GO AWAY to prepare abodes in this Father's House, and then He would RETURN, NOT to take disciples to heaven, but that they could be (at a future day) where He was NOW as He spoke. He was THEN, as He spoke, ON EARTH, and He told where He was in verse 10. He was "In the father and the Father in Him". The Father's House is the Body of Christ. It is enlarged by being the Church. The subject was Jesus' death to prepare the way for disciples to become "abodes" In the CHURCH.

Well then you are not reading the entire scripture, because not only did the Lord say that He was going to prepare places for us, but He also said "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me," which would mean that He would be coming to take us back to the Father's house.

You continue to infer that what I am teaching is not from private interpretation. People always claim this when the truth is evident and they want to discredit the other person. I have provided nothing but scripture to support all that I have been teaching. The following are all regarding the same event of when the Lord comes for His church:

=========================================================================

John 14:1-3
"In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am.

I Thessalonians 4:16-17
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will be the first to rise. After that, we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord.

I Corinthians 15:51-53
"Listen, I tell you a mystery: We will not all sleep, but we will all be changed—in an instant, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.

========================================================================

So, when Jesus returns to take believers back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared for us, He will do so with a loud command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God and the dead will rise first immortal and glorified, then we who are still alive will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with them to meet the Lord in the air. At that point the entire church from beginning to end will be gathered in the air, where the Lord will then take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He prepared. This is what the combined scriptures teach.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

--John 13:36 - "where I go ye cannot follow Me now, but you will follow Me afterward [G5305 - eventually]" (said to His disciples... to whom He had also said "I go to the Father" - Jn14:12,28 and Jn16:10,16,17)

Oops... I accidentally left off a cpl verses (under this point): [John13:1], John 16:28

 

[Jackson123]

The picture that God batters his bride into submission through terrible torment is not a image we should ascribe to God .

Stephen stoned to death, Jesus say carry your cross every day. In the history of christianity killing, prison and persecution is always, It may not in the USA but It happen in nort Korea, China, middle east, Indonesia and some africa

Good news is free from hell, not free from earthly persecution.

 

[Jackson123]

These are the ones who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb."

Come out of great tribulation ...white robes

White robes mean saints.

The saints out from great tribulation.

So great tribulation is not wrath of God

How God wrath to His saints

Great tribulation mean wrath of the devil toward saints

It mean rapture happen after great tribulation

 

[CS1]

I propose eight scriptures, four of which show (i) Christians passing through the Great Tribulation, and the other four which show (ii) that a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that must be earned by an already born-again Christian. To shorten the posting, the premise is that the Book of Revelation, true to the Greek - “Apokalypsis”, which means “THE REVEALING”, records events surround the Second Coming, or “Revealing” of Jesus Christ from heaven.

Easily seen it the first claim that some Christians will pass through the awful Great Tribulation.

1. In Revelation 7:9-17 We see a great multinational, multicultural and multi-language company who are obviously attached to Jesus Christ by white robes washed by the blood of Christ, standing before Christ’s Throne and hailing Him. Verse 14 plainly says that they passed through the Great Tribulation with hunger, heat and tears described in the verses following
2. In Revelation 12 a mystery Woman, who is a “sign”, brings forth three “Seeds”. The third of these is described as “having the testimony of Jesus Christ” and they must pass through the 1260 days of Great Tribulation (v.17) as a special target for Satan
3. In Revelation 13:7, a Company called “saints” are on earth during the world-wide reign of the Beast and are conquered by the Beast. Of the 62 times “saints” are used in the New Testament, only one does not refer to members of the Churches. That is, "saints" are Christians
4. In Revelation 18:4 the Holy Spirit calls for God’s People to come out of Commercial Babylon. Implied is that those who don’t will pass through the suffering and destruction of Babylon the Great BY GOD Himself.

I propose that the bulk of Christianity will pass through the Great Tribulation

Now, if the wording, grammar and contexts of the following scriptures is accurately followed, one can draw no other conclusion that to be “caught up” to the clouds to avoid this Great Tribulation is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that is gained by (i) an intimate walk with Christ, and (ii) the execution of works that God judges as given by Him and as being rightful.

1. In Philippians 3:10-14, Paul talks of “ATTAINING” two things; (i) A Select resurrection. The Greek word used here for “resurrection” is used only once in the New Testament and means “the resurrection out of the resurrection”. It must be “attained to”. That it is special is confirmed by 1st Corinthians 15:22 which guarantees resurrection for ALL men. So truly, a resurrection that must be attained to, is special. (ii) In the same context Paul speaks of an “Upward call”. The Greek does not tell of a “High Calling” as the KJV supposes, but a “call in an upward direction” as other literal translations like the New King James corrects. But this “Upward Call” is a PRIZE, and Paul STRIVES for it.
2. These two things are repeated in 1st Thessalonians 4:15-17 as the removal of the Church to avoid God’s wrath on all men is taught. But interestingly it is only addressed to the Church at Thessaloniki - a Model Church (see 1st Thessalonians Chapters 1 & 3)
3. In Luke 21:36, within the context that starts at verse 25, is of a time when men on the whole earth will be in agony. Our Lord Jesus promises an escape to where the Son of man will be during that time - not yet on earth. To be part of this escape one must be “found WORTHY”. Verse 35 sets the principle for being worthy - not involving oneself in the pleasures and cares of this present world
4. In Revelation 3:10 certain of the Church will “be KEPT from the HOUR of trial that comes upon the WHOLE EARTH.” Only TWO trials ever encompass the “whole earth” - (i) Noah’s flood and (ii) the Great Tribulation. But to be “KEPT from this TIME, or “hour” of Trial is CONDITIONAL. It is BECAUSE a Christian has kept the word of the the patience of Jesus. Nearly all of the problems that beset Christians after they have started well, is the delay of the Lord's Coming (e.g. Matt.24:44-51, 2nd Pet.3:3)

It is clear to me that each point mentioned above needs more words than I have given. But long postings are seldom read. So I now open them for discussion. At hand are sobering claims. (i) That God wants to save us from the Great Tribulation, (ii) that God has prepared a way out by our faithfulness and diligence, but that (iii) most of us Christians will not be raptured before the Great Tribulation, and pass through its agony.

Just one point I did not see. Those who have died before the " Great Tribulation". I have not been subject to God's wrath that will be poured out on the earth. I am now sealed with the Holy Spirit today. I am saved by grace not because I am exceptional.

 

[Nehemiah6]

I propose eight scriptures, four of which show (i) Christians passing through the Great Tribulation, and the other four which show (ii) that a Pre-Tribulation Rapture is a REWARD, or PRIZE, that must be earned by an already born-again Christian.

Neither proposition is true. So it is back to square one for you.

 

[Truth7t7]

I Thessalonians 4:13-17 is a detailed account of when the Lord comes to take us back to the Father's house.

You falsely suggest that 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 is a (Pre-Trib) Rapture of the church to heaven?

The verses you present is nothing more that the Second Coming of Jesus Christ, immediately after the tribulation, Matthew 24:29-30, and the (Last Day) resurrection of the believer, John 6:39-40

1.) Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 below show the resurrection of the believer, 100% yes!

2.) Does 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 show the Lord himself returning in the second coming, 100% yes!

3.) Does Matthew 24:29-30 show the timing of the second coming to be immediately after the tribulation, 100% yes!

John 6:39-40KJV
39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-17KJV
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Matthew 24:29-31KJV
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

 

[oyster67]

It is clear to me that each point mentioned above needs more words than I have given. But long postings are seldom read. So I now open them for discussion. At hand are sobering claims. (i) That God wants to save us from the Great Tribulation, (ii) that God has prepared a way out by our faithfulness and diligence, but that (iii) most of us Christians will not be raptured before the Great Tribulation, and pass through its agony

i. Yes.
ii. Yes.
iii. Most pew warmers and many pulpiteers who pretend to be Christians are not Christians.

Some people will become Christians during the Tribulation.

 

[GaryA]

I kinda agree with you, but Ephesians 5:27 says; "That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish." You don't have to answer, but I'll ask anyway. Do you know Christians who are not "without blemish"? I freely admit that I am not without blemish. And I know Christians who openly sin, never mind that I know that the thoughts and intents of the heart are worse. And why, if we are perfect, holy, without spot, without wrinkle and without blemish does God threaten to chastise so that we REMAIN SONS of God? (Heb.12:5-9)

Verses 26-27 are not some kind of "requirement" intended to be used as a tool of judgment. They are a depiction-explanation of the intended purpose (v26) and the intended result (v27) of the work that Christ did based on the phrase 'even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it' at the end of verse 25.

Also, it is not focused on individuals, but the church - the body of Christ - as a whole.

 

[Bugs]

A lot of what the pretribbers believe is what they have seen in all the movies and books other than the bible. I have heard many people argue that it is there in scripture but it is always some vague reference that could mean a hundred different things, God has not revealed any of it to me so I will play it safe and not believe in something that God did not spell out in the bible. Years ago I even asked my old baptist preacher about it and he just ended up referring me to the Left Behind books to explain all the answers.

Do you really think it is cruel of God to allow His people to be on earth during those prophetic times? Can you not trust that He will be with you in those difficult times just as He has been with us throughout all time since the beginning?