The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

[Wall]

And lastly we see the church in heaven DURING the gt in rev 19.

In heaven?

REVELATION 19 [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in HEAVEN followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The greek word for heaven that is found in Rev.19 is found below

Greek Word: οὐρανός
Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Pronunciationo-ran-os'
Root: perhaps from the same as <G3735> (through the idea of elevation), the sky
Cross Reference: TDNT - 5:497,736
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: Air, Heaven, HeavenlyStrong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

ACTS 10 [12] Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the AIR.

LUKE 9 [57] And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. [58] And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the AIR have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

MATTHEW 6 [26] Behold the fowls of the AIR: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

It is also the same greek word used to describe the air {where the birds fly} in the 3 scriptures above

1 THESSALONIANS 4 [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We do meet the Lord in the air. Do we then become the armys of God {rev.19}.

 

[Absolutely]

In heaven?

REVELATION 19 [13] And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God. [14] And the armies which were in HEAVEN followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

The greek word for heaven that is found in Rev.19 is found below

Greek Word: οὐρανός
Transliteration: ouranos
Phonetic Pronunciationo-ran-os'
Root: perhaps from the same as <G3735> (through the idea of elevation), the sky
Cross Reference: TDNT - 5:497,736
Part of Speech: n m
Vine's Words: Air, Heaven, HeavenlyStrong's Talking Greek & Hebrew Dictionary.

ACTS 10 [12] Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the AIR.

LUKE 9 [57] And it came to pass, that, as they went in the way, a certain man said unto him, Lord, I will follow thee whithersoever thou goest. [58] And Jesus said unto him, Foxes have holes, and birds of the AIR have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head.

MATTHEW 6 [26] Behold the fowls of the AIR: for they sow not, neither do they reap, nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feedeth them. Are ye not much better than they?

It is also the same greek word used to describe the air {where the birds fly} in the 3 scriptures above

1 THESSALONIANS 4 [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the AIR: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

We do meet the Lord in the air. Do we then become the armys of God {rev.19}.

Re read it
The scene is heaven.
You have to MAKE IT SAY "SKY"
You reframed it and changed it.
You prefer to stretch it rather than accept it.

19
1 And after these things I heard a great voice of much people in heaven, saying, Alleluia; Salvation, and glory, and honour, and power, unto the Lord our God:

2 For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.

3 And again they said, Alleluia And her smoke rose up for ever and ever.

4 And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia.

5 And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great

 

[Absolutely]

Vs 1 has the same greek word as the one you claim is "sky"

So we have Gods throne in the sky?

 

[Wall]

Re read it
The scene is heaven.
You have to MAKE IT SAY "SKY"
You reframed it and changed it.

Not me. I didnt write the bible. Just quoting it

 

[Absolutely]

...as I was saying, the church is in heaven DURING the 7 yr gt as declared in rev 19.

That alone is an insurmountable problem for postrib rapture adherents

 

[Absolutely]

Not me. I didnt write the bible. Just quoting it

Good.

Make heaven mean heaven.
...but it will be a problem as we both know you need it changed to "sky"

 

[Absolutely]

....as all the other pretrib rapture verses

 

[Wall]

Vs 1 has the same greek word as the one you claim is "sky"

So we have Gods throne in the sky?

You put little quotes around the word "sky" as if quoting me. Where did i use the word "sky"

 

[Wall]

....as all the other pretrib rapture verses

Like 1Thes4?

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period

 

[Ahwatukee]

Could you show me 1 scripture that actually says we are going to heaven at this "rapture event"

He did mentioned in part I at the bottom regarding John 14:1-3

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

Jesus said that He was going to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare places for the disciples and all believers and that He was going to come back to get us and takes to the those places that He prepared for us which again is in the Father's house. I Thess.4:13-18 is the detailed account of what happens when He comes back for us.

When the Lord appears, all of the dead from the on-set of the church up until the resurrection, will ascend into the air, immortal and glorified. Immediately after that, those believers who are still alive will be changed immortal and glorified and will be caught up with those who just resurrected. The the Lord will take the entire church back to the Father's house to those places that He went to prepare for us, just as promised.

 

[Wall]

He did mentioned in part I at the bottom regarding John 14:1-3

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God; believe in Me as well. In My Father’s house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and welcome you into My presence, so that you also may be where I am."

Jesus said that He was going to the Father's house (heaven) to prepare places for the disciples and all believers and that He was going to come back ......

JOHN 14 [1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Ya see what the scriptures say. HE WILL COME AGAIN. He doesnt say a word about going back to heaven with Him. He’s coming back to earth as He said He would.

JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

In fact we are not allowed to go to heaven (thats what Jesus said). Then Jesus said He would come again and that where He is we will be there also

 

[Ahwatukee]

JOHN 14 [1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Ya see what the scriptures say. HE WILL COME AGAIN. He doesnt say a word about going back to heaven with Him. He’s coming back to earth as He said He would.

Well, let's fact-check John 14:1-3 to see what is said:

"Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God a ; believe also in me. 2My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am."

* My Father's house has many rooms

* I am going there to prepare a place for you

* If I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me

So let's see, Jesus went to the Father's house which is in heaven, to prepare places for those who believe in Him. And that He is coming back to take us to be with Him, which would be to those places that He went to prepare for us which again is in the Father's house. It would be pointless to go and prepare places for us in the Father's house and then not take us there. Understanding this scripture isn't difficult at all, but its meaning is straight forward.

JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

In fact we are not allowed to go to heaven (that's what Jesus said). Then Jesus said He would come again and that where He is we will be there also

Let's look at the whole scripture, for you left out a very important part of it.

==============================================================================
"33Little children, I am with you only a little while longer. You will look for Me, and as I said to the Jews, so now I say to you: ‘Where I am going, you cannot come.’

36“Lord, where are You going?” Simon Peter asked.

Jesus answered, “Where I am going, you cannot follow Me now, but you will follow later.”
===============================================================================

So what Jesus said was "you cannot follow Me [now], but you will follow me [later].

The "but you will follow Me later" is when He comes back to get us to take us to those places that He went to prepare for us in the Father's house, which is in heaven.

Come on Wall! The meaning of this scripture is straight forward.

 

[Absolutely]

JOHN 14 [1] Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. [2] In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. [3] And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Ya see what the scriptures say. HE WILL COME AGAIN. He doesnt say a word about going back to heaven with Him. He’s coming back to earth as He said He would.

JOHN 7 [33] Then said Jesus unto them, Yet a little while am I with you, and then I go unto him that sent me.[34] Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and WHERE I AM, THITHER YE CANNOT COME.

In fact we are not allowed to go to heaven (thats what Jesus said). Then Jesus said He would come again and that where He is we will be there also

Mat 25
The wise virgins went into the marriage chamber.

Under your theory those wise virgins would have RETURNED BACK TO THEIR HOMES/STARTING PLACE.

So yes the rapture is to heaven as Jesus declared at the last supper and as rev 19 indicates.

 

[Absolutely]

Like 1Thes4?

1 THES. 4 [13] But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye SORROW NOT, EVEN AS OTHERS which have no hope. [14] For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. [15] For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. [16] For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with THE VOICE of the archangel, and with THE TRUMP OF GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them IN THE CLOUDS, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. [18] Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

1THES.4 – voice – clouds – trump of God – sorrow not as others -

ZEPH. 1 – voice – clouds – the trumpet – man shall cry bitterly -

ZEPH. 1 [14] The great DAY OF THE LORD is near, it is near, and hasteth greatly, even THE VOICE of the day of the Lord: the mighty MAN SHALL CRY THERE BITTERLY. [15] That day is a day of wrath, a day of trouble and distress, a day of wasteness and desolation, a day of darkness and gloominess, a DAY OF CLOUDS and thick darkness, [16] A DAY OF THE TRUMPET and alarm against the fenced cities, and against the high towers. [17] And I will bring distress upon men, that they shall walk like blind men, because they have sinned against the Lord: and their blood shall be poured out as dust, and their flesh as the dung.

No doubt about it. Both scriptures are speaking of the same event. Both scriptures speak of what happens on the Day of the Lord.

The Day of the Lord takes place AFTER the tribulation period

"Trumpet "
"Trump"
"Day"

Do not void the pretrib rapture verses.

BTW...We noth agree Jesus returns postrib.

 

[Absolutely]

You put little quotes around the word "sky" as if quoting me. Where did i use the word "sky"

Ok you said "air"

"Sky" fits what you are implying.

You're trying to reframe rev 19 to say anything BUT heaven (as in the place of God's throne)

 

[Wall]

Hey Ahwatukee or Absolutely
Can either one of you tell me how many general resurrections are left to take place?

 

[Absolutely]

Hey Ahwatukee or Absolutely
Can either one of you tell me how many general resurrections are left to take place?

1) The dead in Christ exclusive.

2) The gwtj

...but we can assume the innumerable number since they are found in heaven during the gt.

.....and it is not clear if the 144k are raptured or martyred/resurrected. (They are in heaven in rev 14 as firstfruits)....and that happens during the gt.

You can see postrib rapture is not at all plausable. Way too many verses that are ignored or omitted.

 

[Wall]

1) The dead in Christ exclusive.
2) The gwtj

Yes. Scripture points out theres only 2 general resurrections to come

EZEKIEL 37

[3] And he said unto me, Son of man, can these bones live? And I answered, O Lord GOD, thou knowest. [4] Again he said unto me, Prophesy upon these bones, and say unto them, O ye dry bones, hear the word of the LORD. [5] Thus saith the Lord GOD unto these bones; Behold, I WILL CAUSE BREATH TO ENTER INTO YOU, AND YE SHALL LIVE: [6] AND I WILL LAY SINEWS UPON YOU, AND WILL BRING UP FLESH UPON YOU, AND COVER YOU WITH SKIN, AND PUT BREATH IN YOU, AND YE SHALL LIVE; and ye shall know that I am the LORD. [7] So I prophesied as I was commanded: and as I prophesied, there was a noise, and behold a shaking, and the bones came together, bone to his bone. [8] And when I beheld, lo, the sinews and the flesh came up upon them, and the skin covered them above: but there was no breath in them. [9] Then said he unto me, Prophesy unto the wind, prophesy, son of man, and say to the wind, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Come from the four winds, O breath, and BREATHE UPON THESE SLAIN, THAT THEY MAY LIVE.[10] So I prophesied as he commanded me, and the BREATH CAME INTO THEM, AND THEY LIVED, and stood up upon their feet, an exceeding great army. [11] Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts. [12] Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I WILL OPEN YOUR GRAVES, AND CAUSE YOU TO COME UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, AND BRING YOU INTO THE LAND OF ISRAEL. [13] And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I HAVE OPENED YOUR GRAVES, O MY PEOPLE, AND BROUGHT YOU UP OUT OF YOUR GRAVES, [14] And shall put my spirit in you, and YE SHALL LIVE, AND I SHALL PLACE YOU IN YOUR OWN LAND: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

Yes Absolutely theres ONLY 2 general resurrections to come. The 1Cor.15 event and the great white throne event. Must you claim there is no resurrection to be found in Ezek.37 for your pre-trib rapture to be real. If you can find a resurrection in Ezek.37 does your pre-trib rapture go down the drain? For sure! As you can see, after above resurrection the resurrected are not going to heaven but to Israel

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ I put that reference ^ in a list I made yesterday, of passages that are speaking of "Israel's FUTURE" but which LIKEN [it] UNTO a resurrection (but which refers not to "a physical/bodily resurrection from-being-formerly-physically-dead" ):

https://christianchat.com/threads/w...y-the-rapture-takes-place.195993/post-4426994

 

[Ahwatukee]

Hey Ahwatukee or Absolutely
Can either one of you tell me how many general resurrections are left to take place?

Morning Wall!

The first resurrection, i.e. the resurrections which take place prior to the one at the end of the millennial period, has phases or stages:

* Christ the first fruits - (I Corinthians 15:23)

* The church at the Lord's appearing - (John 14:1-3, I Cor.15:51-53, I Thess.13-18)

* The two witnesses - (Rev.11:11)

* The great tribulation saints - (Rev.20:4-6)

* OT saints of Israel (not sure where to put that one. They may be resurrected at the same time as the great tribulation saints)

All of the above fall under the banner of 'first resurrection.' There will also be the Male Child, which is a collective name symbolically representing the 144,000 who will be caught up to God and His throne, which takes place in the middle of the seven years.