The Pre-Tribulation Rapture: The Blessed Hope of the Saints

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ EDIT (to add):

[it's almost as though you didn't actually READ what I'd put... nor endeavor to comprehend it at all (even if you ultimately DECIDE to disagree with it--which, if you do disagree, I'd appreciate knowing "which part I put" is unbiblical, or at the very least, not [at all] biblically-"reasonable [having 'REASON']"--It seems the only response you have is: I stick only to the 4 Gospels, coz Jesus COULD NOT SPEAK AT ALL AFTER that [see John 16:12-15 (just before He would DIE on the CROSS) "I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. BUT WHEN..."... and this is what we see spealled out in the remainder of Scripture FOLLOWING His "death/resurrection/ascension/exaltation" like 1Cor2:9-10,12-14,16b refers to, as well as Col1:25 "to COMPLETE the word of God"])]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

"[Kenneth S. Wuest is a member of the Faculty of the Moody Bible Institute, Chicago, Illinois, and author of numerous books on New Testament Greek.]"

"The Rapture: Precisely When?" - Kenneth S Wuest

"The answer to these questions will only be convincing to the reader if it is based upon the rules of Biblical exegesis. [...<snip>...] That interpretation which is based upon the above rules is to be regarded as correct until it can be shown by the reapplication of the same rules that an error of human judgment has crept in.
"There is such a thing, therefore, as a scientific method of studying the Word. The student who follows the rules of an experiment in chemistry brings that experiment to a successful conclusion. The student who does not ends up with an explosion. Just so, the student who conducts his study of the Bible along the scientific lines noted above arrives at the correct interpretation, and the student who does not at the wrong one. The exegetical method the student uses in answering the question with reference to the time of the rapture will determine whether he believes in a pretribulational or a posttribulational rapture.
[...]
"The words "a falling away" are the Authorized Version rendering of apostasia. The verbal form afistamai from which it comes is present middle of afisthmi, the root verb, which we will study. The simple verb Jisthmi [histemi] in its intransitive sense means "to stand," the prefixed preposition means "off, away from," and the compound verb, "to stand off from." The word does not mean "to fall." The Greeks had a word for that, piptw. Afisthmi, in its various uses, is reported by Thayer as follows: "to make stand off, cause to withdraw, to stand off, stand aloof, to desert, to withdraw from one"; in contexts where a defection from the faith is in view, it means "to fall away, become faithless." The verb is rendered by the translators of the Authorized Version "to depart," in Luke 2:32; Luke 4:13; Luke 13:27; Acts 12:10; Acts 15:38; Acts 19:9; Acts 22:29; 2 Corinthians 12:8; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 2:19; Hebrews 3:12. In Luke 8:13 it is translated "fall away," in Acts 5:37, "drew away," and in Acts 5:38, "refrain." Had they translated the word here instead of interpreting it, they would have rendered it by the word "departure." The reader will observe that the predominant translation of the verbal form is "to depart," also, that where it is translated "fall away," the context adds the idea of "falling away" to the verb, which action is still a departure.
E. Schuyler English, to whom this present writer is deeply indebted for calling his attention to the word "departure" as the correct rendering of apostasia in this context, also informs us that the following translators understood the Greek word to mean "a departure" in this context: Tyndale (1534), Coverdale (1535), the Geneva Bible (1537), Cranmer (1539), and Beza (1565), and so used it in their translations. Apostasia is used once more in the New Testament and is translated "to forsake" (AV), signifying a departure. The neuter noun apostasion in Matthew 5:31; Matthew 19:7; and Mark 10:4 is rendered by the Authorized Version, "divorcement," which word also signifies a departure, here, from antecedent relations.
The writer is well aware of the fact that apostasia was used at times both in classical and koine Greek in the sense of a defection, a revolt in a religious sense, a rebellion against God, and of the act of apostasy. Liddell and Scott in their classical lexicon give the above as the first definition of the word. Moulton and Milligan quote a papyrus fragment where the word means "a rebel." But these are acquired meanings of the word gotten from the context in which it is used, not the original, basic, literal meaning, and should not be imposed upon the word when the context does not qualify the word by these meanings, as in the case of our Thessalonians passage, where the context in which apostasia is embedded does not refer to a defection from the truth but to the rapture of the church. The fact that our word "apostasy" means a defection from the truth is entirely beside the point since we do not interpret Scripture upon the basis of a transliterated word to which a certain meaning has been given, but upon the basis of what the Greek word mean to the first century reader. The fact that Paul in 1 Timothy 4:1 uses this verb in the words "some shall depart from the faith" and finds it necessary to qualify its meaning by the phrase "from the faith" indicates that the word itself has no such connotation. The translators of the Authorized Version did not translate the word, but offered their interpretation of it. They should have translated it and allowed the student to interpret it in its context.

With the translation of the word before us, the next step is to ascertain from the context that to which this departure refers. We note the presence of the Greek definite article before apostasia, of which the translation takes no notice. A Greek word is definite in itself, and when the article is used the exegete must pay particular attention to it. "The basal function of the article is to point out individual identity. It does more than mark 'the object as definitely conceived,' for a substantive in Greek is definite without the article." This departure, whatever it is, is a particular one, one differentiated from all others. Another function of the article is "to denote previous reference." Here the article points out an object the identity of which is defined by some previous reference made to it in the context." Paul in 2 Thessalonians 2:1 has just spoken of the coming of the Lord. This coming is defined by the words "our gathering together unto him," not as the second advent, but as the rapture. The Greek word rendered "and" can also be translated "even," and the translation reads, "the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, even our gathering together unto him."

The article [the definite article 'THE'] before apostasia defines that word by pointing to "the gathering together unto him" as that departure. This article determines the context which defines apostasia. The translators took the context of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12 as deciding the significance of the word, but they went too far afield, not grasping the function of the definite article preceding apostasia which points back to the rapture of 2 Thessalonians 2:1, not ahead to the refusal to believe the truth of 2 Thessalonians 2:10-12. The article is all-important here, as in many instances of its use in the Greek New Testament. In 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, Paul had given these saints teaching on the rapture, and the Greek article here points to that which was well known to both the reader and the writer, which is another use of the Greek definite article. Thus, the departure of the church from earth to heaven must precede the great tribulation period [TDW: I would say, "must precede the (7-yr) tribulation period" to be more specific (for 'GREAT tribulation' refers only to the latter half of it, though I find that most ppl mis-label this also)]. And we have answered our questions again."

--Kenneth S Wuest, "The Rapture--Precisely When?", Bibliotheca Sacra, BSac 114:453 (Jan 57), p.60

[ www. galaxie . com/article/bsac114-453-05 ]

[bold and underline mine; bracketed insert mine]

 

[luigi]

I wonder what the patience of the saints is when the system of the beast is killing everyone who does not take its mark? Where's the great flyaway prior to Satan, the Beast, and Antichrist's system here?

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

I wonder what the patience of the saints is when the system of the beast is killing everyone who does not take its mark? Where's the great flyaway prior to Satan, the Beast, and Antichrist's system here?

Revelation 13:10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Again, luigi, no one is denying that there will indeed exist "saints" in the tribulation period... but these are "saints" who will have come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years, FOLLOWING our Rapture. (These are NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23, Col1:24, 1Cor12:12, etc] and are never identified as such. [But, yes, they are "SAVED"--the matter has to do with "WHEN" they come to faith i.e. a matter of CHRONOLOGY: WHAT happens WHEN, in relation to what OTHER THINGS])

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [along with that point]

The "Rapture" pertains SOLELY to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" (ALL those "saved" "in this present age [singular]"), NOT to all other saints of all OTHER time periods (NOT to OT saints, NOT to Trib saints, NOT to MK saints: though these all too are "saved" persons [of distinct TIME PERIODS--pertaining to the "WHEN" in which they have come to faith; The ones YOU [ @luigi ] are pointing out, come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture," that is, IN/DURING/WITHIN the [7-]trib-yrs])



[you and I are not OT saints, for example, even if someone were to throw a temper-tantrum to insist upon the unfairness of such! ]

 

[luigi]

Again, luigi, no one is denying that there will indeed exist "saints" in the tribulation period... but these are "saints" who will have come to faith IN/DURING/WITHIN the trib years, FOLLOWING our Rapture. (These are NOT "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [Eph1:20-23, Col1:24, 1Cor12:12, etc] and are never identified as such. [But, yes, they are "SAVED"--the matter has to do with "WHEN" they come to faith i.e. a matter of CHRONOLOGY: WHAT happens WHEN, in relation to what OTHER THINGS])

There are no specific scriptures to validate that there will be another round of saints following your supposed preceding rapture to the great tribulation. There are, however, many scriptures that show that those saints who die in the Lord during the tribulation, and are caught up to God, will return with the Lord at the conclusion of the beasts' reign, at which time those (the remnant) saints who are still in their skins at this time, will be caught up.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

There are, however, many scriptures that show that those saints who die in the Lord during the tribulation, and are caught up to God, will return with the Lord at the conclusion of the beasts' reign, at which time those (the remnant) saints who are still in their skins at this time, will be caught up.

1Th4:17 (about "our Rapture" event) says "the dead IN Christ" (who 'rise first') AND the "we which are alive and remain unto"... are to be "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER" (that is, the "CAUGHT UP" VERB-ACTION corresponds with the "TOGETHER" word, which means "[caught up] AT THE SAME TIME]"--This is the ONE "caught up/caught away/snatch/rapture/harpazo/harpagēsometha [G726]" thing... which is saying that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will be "caught up / caught away" AS ONE [as "ONE BODY"] ("caught up TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]"... This is entirely DISTINCT from what is being shown in Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 [Second Coming to the earth] (described as [in distinction to the other] "gather ye ONE BY ONE [NOT "AS ONE" like "we" will be!], O ye children OF ISRAEL"... into one place upon the EARTH: "to worship the Lord in the holy mountain AT JERUSALEM"... which is what was promised TO THEM; Now this is NOT to say that WE won't "RETURN" WITH Him, WE WILL... but that's not who is being spoken of in the texts FOLLOWING "SEAL #1" [who are on the earth--who come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"!])




[Rev5:9 "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"... and this is after a "searching judgment" has taken place, as indicated by the "WAS FOUND" word used in 5:4 (JUST LIKE is used re: Paul before their human/earthly courts, before their "bema," in the latter parts of Acts)--comp. 5:9 with 1:5-6!]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

The "144,000 [12,000 from each of the tribes of Israel listed there]" are "FIRSTFRUIT" of the "WHEAT harvest" [distinct harvests]... COMPARE the wording of Rev14:4 to that of the SECOND (of TWO) "FIRSTFRUIT" in Leviticus 23... the SECOND being in v.17, where it says, "TWO LOAVES" and "baken WITH LEAVEN"...

...but notice what is said about (US) "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY":

--"For, even as the body is one, and hath many members, and all the members of the one body, being many, are one body, so also is THE CHRIST"

--"Now ye are the body of Christ, and members in particular."

--"For we being many ARE ONE BREAD, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread."

--etc...





[note James 1:18 - "a KIND of firstfruit..." (showing there is a DISTINCTION in "firstfruits"... rather than merely one--just as Lev23 shows!)--These are just SUPPLEMENTARY points (not even the PRIMARY ones, on this "rapture" Subject), that SUPPORT the whole Subject altogether]

 

[awelight]

yes the point is it takes place after the tribulation not before the church goes through the tribulation they aren’t raptured out of it , but after they are gathered

“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.

And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭13:24-27‬ ‭

that’s the end of this world . it’s the only thing that is left to take place . Jesus will return at the end there’s just one day that is going to come suddenly just like in Noah’s day it comes at the end .

this day when Jesus returns that’s it .

the church exists on earth in this world we live in from this time

“So then after the Lord had spoken unto them, he was received up into heaven, and sat on the right hand of God. And they went forth, and preached every where, the Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following. Amen.”

‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:19-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬


until this time

“For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.



“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:14, 16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


That is the same day for believers there as this day for non believers


“And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”

‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Paul is giving revelation into what Jesus has already taught beforehand

“As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.”

‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13:40-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Revelation is a vision John saw as he was taken into heaven by the spirit . No ones going to see those things of course , but those visuals are meant to convey revelation of how things would be going forward so you see changes such as

what happens when you die changed I think I understand our conflict in thinking I don’t look at revelation as a predictor of the future and correspond it to forgives on earth . That’s not what I believe it is meant for .

I believe it’s meant to offer revelation of Jesus Christ and the kingdom of God until the very end when all the perpetually unfolding spiritual judgements shown in revelation have ran thier course then Christ will come and gather the church that’s after all the tribulation

but brother I mean this sincerely I disagree on some points but that doesn’t make me right and you wrong , I don’t care about that part I’m no teacher like you or anything , I just see scripture differently on some points

so no offense meant or anything just a discussion

Wouldn't it be easier to just say you are a "Premillennial Post-Tribulationist". Your interpretation of the Scriptures, is what a "Premillennial Pre Tribulationist", call the "Yo-yo theorist". That is: We are caught up in the air with the Lord at the end of the Tribulation, just so we can all come right back down to the earth again. Doesn't really make since.

Additionally, I continue to point back to the Old Testament shadow. Enoch - a type of believer in the assembly Christ is building - is taken up alive and this just before the flood - a type of the Great Tribulation. While not all agree with this view, we know the Old Testament is full of "types and shadows" of the New.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ [to add to my post] And concerning the phrase "out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation" (Rev5:9; and similar phrases elsewhere, esp in Revelation)... This concerns ppl of ALL nations... but take a look at the phrase "all the TRIBES of the earth" [where "nations, people, tongues" is not also mentioned with this] (Rev1:7, Matt24:30):

--CAREFULLY EXAMINE *each* of the following occurrences of:

"tribe / tribes" - 297x [TOTAL (altogether)]
- https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=tribe&version=KJV

"tribes" - 111x
- https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearch/?quicksearch=tribes&version=KJV


...and determine how many of them refer to anyone OUTSIDE OF "the TRIBES of ISRAEL"... and let us know...


[I have a thought...]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

^ On another note:

[re-post]

Joseph's TWO dreams represent:

--1) [first dream] Christ's first advent (note what his brothers say in Gen37:8a=Lk19:14 "we will not have this man to reign over us"); and

--2) [second dream] Christ's second advent (and that which leads UP TO IT [see Rev12:12 and related]; SEE Gen45:1,6 [in the second year of Joseph's SEVEN YEAR famine, v.6] "1 There STOOD NO MAN WITH HIM, while Joseph MADE HIMSELF KNOWN UNTO his brethren" [compare this wording with Ezek39:7 "So [/thus/in this way] will I MAKE MY HOLY NAME KNOWN in the midst of MY PEOPLE ISRAEL" ... early in the trib yrs--just like Hos5:14-6:3 says, esp. v.15!]; notice also when Jesus will "STAND to JUDGE" - Rev5:6 / Isa3:13 / [Lam2:3-4 parallel wording with 2Th2:7b-8a!], as He will begin by opening the FIRST SEAL at the START of the [7-]trib-yrs/70th Week )

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

TheDivineWatermark said:
...says the one who believes that ALL occurrences of the word "ekklesia [/'church' - G1577]" refers to "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" [note: Eph1:20-23 WHEN]... INCLUDING its usages in: [...]

I was just having a little fun with ya TDW, I didn't mean it in a mean way.

Nor did I... hence, the "smiley" also in *my* post/response ^ to you, in that post that you quoted of mine.



[I try to make a habit of not "reading-INTO" someone's post, intentions they have not meant to convey... Nevertheless, I did hope to also address the point about "ekklesia" not ALWAYS referring to "the Church [ekklesia] WHICH IS HIS BODY [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence!)]"... My "thanks to you" for affording me that opportunity!! ]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

well thank you

Yeah... so all I'm saying is that Paul IS talking about the INITIAL [ONSET pang] "birth PANG [SINGULAR; 1Th5:2-3]" OF THAT WHICH JESUS was speaking of in His phrase "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]" (Matt24:4-8 / Mk13:5-8 / Lk21:8-11).


Does *anything* take place AFTER THESE in the Matt24 context (according to Jesus)?? Yes, YES!, MUCH, MUCH MORE follows on from those [/following those]!


This is what I am pointing out.



But ppl tend to want to "read-INTO" the 1Th5:2-3 verse [related ^ , as I show], the idea of "THE END" (which is simply NOT THE CASE, for the reasons I spell out, above).


Thank you for the rigorous convo. Much appreciated. = )

 

[KJV1611]

Nor did I... hence, the "smiley" also in *my* post/response ^ to you, in that post that you quoted of mine.



[I try to make a habit of not "reading-INTO" someone's post, intentions they have not meant to convey... Nevertheless, I did hope to also address the point about "ekklesia" not ALWAYS referring to "the Church [ekklesia] WHICH IS HIS BODY [Eph1:20-23 WHEN (as to its existence!)]"... My "thanks to you" for affording me that opportunity!! ]

You’re always a pleasure to talk to when you keep the [brackets] down to a minimum .
Just kidding, youre always a pleasure to talk to.

The head of the church in the Old Testament was Israel. Jesus became the head of the church when the kingdom was taken from Israel and given to Jesus.

 

[luigi]

1Th4:17 (about "our Rapture" event) says "the dead IN Christ" (who 'rise first') AND the "we which are alive and remain unto"... are to be "CAUGHT UP TOGETHER" (that is, the "CAUGHT UP" VERB-ACTION corresponds with the "TOGETHER" word, which means "[caught up] AT THE SAME TIME]"--This is the ONE "caught up/caught away/snatch/rapture/harpazo/harpagēsometha [G726]" thing... which is saying that "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" will be "caught up / caught away" AS ONE [as "ONE BODY"] ("caught up TOGETHER [/AT THE SAME TIME]"... This is entirely DISTINCT from what is being shown in Matt24:29-31/Isa27:12-13 [Second Coming to the earth] (described as [in distinction to the other] "gather ye ONE BY ONE [NOT "AS ONE" like "we" will be!], O ye children OF ISRAEL"... into one place upon the EARTH: "to worship the Lord in the holy mountain AT JERUSALEM"... which is what was promised TO THEM; Now this is NOT to say that WE won't "RETURN" WITH Him, WE WILL... but that's not who is being spoken of in the texts FOLLOWING "SEAL #1" [who are on the earth--who come to faith FOLLOWING "our Rapture"!])




[Rev5:9 "hast redeemed US to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation"... and this is after a "searching judgment" has taken place, as indicated by the "WAS FOUND" word used in 5:4 (JUST LIKE is used re: Paul before their human/earthly courts, before their "bema," in the latter parts of Acts)--comp. 5:9 with 1:5-6!]

Would there be a reason to inform us that the dead in Christ rise first, if the living rise immediately after? The logical answer is that it would not be necessary to inform us of a nearly simultaneous rising. There is a time difference between the saints who are dying today who will rise prior to the living who will rise later.
Let us take an example of some saint today in one of these other countries who persecute and kill Christians; ---what would you do if you were there and expecting a rapture prior to experiencing tribulation, but instead were experiencing persecution and death?

 

[Ahwatukee]

Would there be a reason to inform us that the dead in Christ rise first, if the living rise immediately after? The logical answer is that it would not be necessary to inform us of a nearly simultaneous rising. There is a time difference between the saints who are dying today who will rise prior to the living who will rise later.
Let us take an example of some saint today in one of these other countries who persecute and kill Christians; ---what would you do if you were there and expecting a rapture prior to experiencing tribulation, but instead were experiencing persecution and death?

Hello Luigi!

To answer your question, those believers today, just as with the first century believers and every believer in between, have been suffering what Jesus said they would, i.e. persecution and even death for His name sake. This should not be equated with God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Those persecutions and death come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. In opposition, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses being, will be directly from God. It is the latter that believers are not appointed suffer, for believers are not appointed suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely.

There is a time difference between the saints who are dying today who will rise prior to the living who will rise later.

The scripture does not support the dead and living rising at different times. It states that when that event takes place, the dead in Christ will rise first and then those who are still alive will be transformed and caught up in the clouds with those who will have previously resurrected, demonstrating that it will take place at the same time. The only reason that the living are not resurrected, is because they will still be alive at the time the resurrection takes place. Therefore, they will just be transformed in an amount of time to short to divide and will be caught up with those who just resurrected.

The resurrection of the church, dead and living, is a group event, which will take place in close proximity of each other. The fact that the living who are changed meet those who will have just resurrected in the clouds demonstrates that it is one event with two phases.

The idea is that, the entire church from beginning to the end will be gathered together in one place at one time. This is according to Jesus' promise in John 14:1-3, where He said there were many rooms in His Father's house and that He was going there to prepare places for us and that He was going to come back again to get us to take us back to those places, so that we may be where He is.

No one has yet been resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies. Jesus was the first fruits of those who rise immortal and glorified and the church (dead and living) is next.

"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

"Then at His coming, those who belong to Him" would be referring to all who have died in Christ and those who are still alive.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

Would there be a reason to inform us that the dead in Christ rise first, if the living rise immediately after? The logical answer is that it would not be necessary to inform us of a nearly simultaneous rising.

Here, you are CONFLATING the concepts of "rise" and "caught UP/-AWAY/SNATCH/harpazo/harpagēsometha [G726]," which are NOT the SAME THING, but entirely DISTINCT things.

--"the DEAD IN Christ shall RISE first" (NOT "be caught UP/-AWAY [G726]" first!!) "Rise," here, meaning, "RESURRECTED [meaning: 'to stand again' (on the earth)]"

--"[THEN!] we which are ALIVE and remain unto..." (who have no need to be "resurrected" [i.e. "to RISE" like the DEAD in Christ do])...

...(THESE TWO COMPONENTS OF "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," *BOTH* "AT THE SAME TIME"-->) TOGETHER will be "caught up/-away [G726]" [<--THIS Grk word ALONE is the verb-action that takes us in a "SNATCH-ACTION" ('caught UP/-AWAY"... what we call "RAPTURE")... NOT the "rise" word (which pertains only to "the DEAD in Christ" in this CONTEXT, which means "resurrected [from the DEAD--which the "still-ALIVE" do not NEED, see]," defined merely as "TO STAND AGAIN [/be resurrected / rise]")]

There is a time difference between the saints who are dying today who will rise prior to the living who will rise later.

Ditto my previous paragraph.

Study the DISTINCTION between the word "rise" (which means being "resurrected") and "harpazo / caught UP/-AWAY [G726]" (which is NOT a "resurrection [from the dead; i.e. 'to stand again' (on the earth)]," but a CATCHING UP IN THE AIR, "to the MEETING [noun] OF THE LORD," THERE.

Conflating these TWO DISTINCT items (as though they were one-and-the-same) is one of the primary reasons folks fail to grasp JUST WHAT "our Rapture" entails (what it will like like and involve, and what its purpose is).

Let us take an example of some saint today in one of these other countries who persecute and kill Christians; ---what would you do if you were there and expecting a rapture prior to experiencing tribulation, but instead were experiencing persecution and death?

As I've said in past posts, Paul acknowledged that even the Thessalonians (in the first century) were EXPERIENCING "persecutions and tribulations ye are ENDURING" 2Th1:4!... Additionally, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" has been experiencing SAME (and "trouble," and even "martyrdom," at times) throughout its ENTIRE EXISTENCE ON THE EARTH, ever since then!

We are NOT awaiting the "future, specific, limited [7-year-] tribulation period [/70th-Week] IN ORDER TO EXPERIENCE IT! See again, "yea, ALL that shall live godly IN Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION" !!! Meaning, THROUGHOUT our existence on this earth... ever since the first century!! Throughout its ENTIRETY! Anyone who is being taught that this is what the Rapture pertains to, is being MIS-TAUGHT! That is not its purpose!

 

[luigi]

Hello Luigi!

To answer your question, those believers today, just as with the first century believers and every believer in between, have been suffering what Jesus said they would, i.e. persecution and even death for His name sake. This should not be equated with God's coming wrath via the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments. Those persecutions and death come at the hands of men and the powers of darkness. In opposition, the seals, trumpets and bowl judgment, as well as the plagues that the two witnesses being, will be directly from God. It is the latter that believers are not appointed suffer, for believers are not appointed suffer God's wrath, because Jesus already experienced God's wrath on behalf of every believer, satisfying it completely.



The scripture does not support the dead and living rising at different times. It states that when that event takes place, the dead in Christ will rise first and then those who are still alive will be transformed and caught up in the clouds with those who will have previously resurrected, demonstrating that it will take place at the same time. The only reason that the living are not resurrected, is because they will still be alive at the time the resurrection takes place. Therefore, they will just be transformed in an amount of time to short to divide and will be caught up with those who just resurrected.

The resurrection of the church, dead and living, is a group event, which will take place in close proximity of each other. The fact that the living who are changed meet those who will have just resurrected in the clouds demonstrates that it is one event with two phases.

The idea is that, the entire church from beginning to the end will be gathered together in one place at one time. This is according to Jesus' promise in John 14:1-3, where He said there were many rooms in His Father's house and that He was going there to prepare places for us and that He was going to come back again to get us to take us back to those places, so that we may be where He is.

No one has yet been resurrected in their immortal and glorified bodies. Jesus was the first fruits of those who rise immortal and glorified and the church (dead and living) is next.

"But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. But each in his own turn: Christ the firstfruits; then at His coming, those who belong to Him.

"Then at His coming, those who belong to Him" would be referring to all who have died in Christ and those who are still alive.

God's wrath commences upon the faithless worshipers of the beast at the conclusion of the beasts system (Revelation 11:18). One should then not confuse the Lord's wrath upon the faithless beast's worshippers with the tribulation that will be taking place on the saints prior to the Lord's wrath.

 

[luigi]

Here, you are CONFLATING the concepts of "rise" and "caught UP/-AWAY/SNATCH/harpazo/harpagēsometha [G726]," which are NOT the SAME THING, but entirely DISTINCT things.

--"the DEAD IN Christ shall RISE first" (NOT "be caught UP/-AWAY [G726]" first!!) "Rise," here, meaning, "RESURRECTED [meaning: 'to stand again' (on the earth)]"

--"[THEN!] we which are ALIVE and remain unto..." (who have no need to be "resurrected" [i.e. "to RISE" like the DEAD in Christ do])...

...(THESE TWO COMPONENTS OF "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY," *BOTH* "AT THE SAME TIME"-->) TOGETHER will be "caught up/-away [G726]" [<--THIS Grk word ALONE is the verb-action that takes us in a "SNATCH-ACTION" ('caught UP/-AWAY"... what we call "RAPTURE")... NOT the "rise" word (which pertains only to "the DEAD in Christ" in this CONTEXT, which means "resurrected [from the DEAD--which the "still-ALIVE" do not NEED, see]," defined merely as "TO STAND AGAIN [/be resurrected / rise]")]



Ditto my previous paragraph.

Study the DISTINCTION between the word "rise" (which means being "resurrected") and "harpazo / caught UP/-AWAY [G726]" (which is NOT a "resurrection [from the dead; i.e. 'to stand again' (on the earth)]," but a CATCHING UP IN THE AIR, "to the MEETING [noun] OF THE LORD," THERE.

Conflating these TWO DISTINCT items (as though they were one-and-the-same) is one of the primary reasons folks fail to grasp JUST WHAT "our Rapture" entails (what it will like like and involve, and what its purpose is).



As I've said in past posts, Paul acknowledged that even the Thessalonians (in the first century) were EXPERIENCING "persecutions and tribulations ye are ENDURING" 2Th1:4!... Additionally, "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" has been experiencing SAME (and "trouble," and even "martyrdom," at times) throughout its ENTIRE EXISTENCE ON THE EARTH, ever since then!

We are NOT awaiting the "future, specific, limited [7-year-] tribulation period [/70th-Week] IN ORDER TO EXPERIENCE IT! See again, "yea, ALL that shall live godly IN Christ Jesus SHALL SUFFER PERSECUTION" !!! Meaning, THROUGHOUT our existence on this earth... ever since the first century!! Throughout its ENTIRETY! Anyone who is being taught that this is what the Rapture pertains to, is being MIS-TAUGHT! That is not its purpose!

When the dead in Christ rise first, they are then caught up to God first. They are not given new mortal bodies to walk around on the earth, and then soon thereafter discard those carnal bodies, fly up to heaven, and then return with the Lord to meet the remnant surviving saints.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

When the dead in Christ rise first, they are then caught up to God first. They are not given new mortal bodies to walk around on the earth, and then soon thereafter discard those carnal bodies, fly up to heaven, and then return with the Lord to meet the remnant surviving saints.

The TEXT ITSELF says, "And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then [G1899 - epeita - 'properly, only then (emphasizing what precedes is a necessary precursor)'] we, the living remaining, will be
caught away together[/AT THE SAME TIME] WITH [G4862 - IN UNION-WITH] them in the clouds for [TO the meeting of the Lord IN THE AIR (where HE IS)]"


This is NOT saying that WE (who are still ALIVE) will GO TO MEET THEM (the Dead in Christ) IN THE AIR where THEY ALREADY went to be FIRST, NO!!! The TEXT does not read that way.

"caught up/away TOGETHER" *means* "caught up/away AT THE SAME TIME"

[IN UNION-WITH them, WHEN THEY are ALSO 'CAUGHT UP'!!]